Do you have an underground tank or one in your basement? If it's an in-ground tank, does it leak? If it does, overly large oil deliveries are the least of your worries.

If the tank is in your basement, what is it's capacity, and are you able to monitor how much is in the tank? Is your water heated by your oil-fired boiler? If it is, how much hot water are you and your tenants using? If the tenants keep the heating thermostat at a low temperature but take hour-long showers twice a day.....well, the results should be obvious.

I suspect your usage from March to November has something to do with heating water.

If you don't trust the oil delivery companies, then before signing up for a new oil company, perhaps you should stipulate that no oil should be delivered unless you are there to check the delivery meter. Naturally, you'll need to arrange to be there for a scheduled delivery. If that doesn't work for you....then you're sort of at the mercy of the oil company. You'll simply have to rely on the oil delivery company's records. They can't all be crooked -- perhaps your expectations don't reflect reality.

i don't understand why you jump to the conclusion that the oil delivery company is crooked. When was the last time your oil boiler was cleaned and serviced? If you asked to be taken off of auto delivery than they should have done that. With the numbers you are using I'm assuming you have a 1000 gal underground tank. If you do not want to be on auto delivery how are you going to determine when and how much oil you need?

Increased "consumption" like you have just described is a classic sign of an oil feed line that has developed a small leak below the concrete floor of a basement.

You might want to give your tank(s) and feed lines a through inspection. If there are portions of either or both that can't be viewed because they are hidden in concrete, you might just want to replace them.

Thanks for your replies. I have a 1080 underground tank. My boiler is cleaned on a regular basis and I have an efficiency rating of 86. It was checked recently, and my system checked out fine. It is an older house, and the tank was put in, in the mid sixties. I called the company and they said they put in oil until the vent alarm or something shuts it off.

I agree that they all can't be crooked, but something is very wrong. It's been warmer here than average, and I even turned down the thermostat 2-3 degrees.

We also had a problem with our gas supplier who was giving us $300-$500 bills. We use gas for our hot water. Our bills went back to normal when their meter was replaced. I had filed a complaint with a city agency, and it was decided in our favor, and the bill adjusted. We had the new meter and lower gas bills during the period of this large oil usage.

I just have never used 639 gallons in a 3 month period especially during a warmer winter, and after turning down the thermostat.

If you have an underground tank that's over 40 years old, there's a very good chance that it has corroded and is leaking. I hope you have good tank insurance. An oil leak can be a very expensive clean up, especially if oil from your underground tank has migrated to neighboring properties.

This is something you want to have checked out immediately. Putting it off (if indeed, you do have a leak) will only make clean up more expensive -- not to mention your higher fuel bills. It might also be a good time to think about replacing the oil-fired boiler with a gas-fired model.

A 40 plus year old 1000 plus gallon BURIED oil tank?

You have a potential disaster in the making beyond your wildest imagination!

Perhaps its time to get off fossil fuelsÂ

SR

Thanks for your replies although I'm feeling a lot worse reading them. I'm looking into tank insurance. I wondering if I should just close off this tank and install a smaller tank in the basement. How much are small basement tanks to install? I don't want to change to gas as I might be selling the house in the next few years.

Wouldn't there be a smell of oil with a tank leak? The company doesn't think there's a leak. It would seep up through the ground, and you can definitely smell #2 oil. Not the nicest odor.

Would TankGuard insure a 40 year old 1080 underground oil tank? Will anyone?

Getting tank insurance on an underground 40+ year old tank, might prove difficult. Assuming that any insurer was even interested in offering coverage, they'd surely want a thorough inspection first. Most likely they'd look for water in the bottom of the tank and do bores around the tank for soil samples. You would, quite naturally, be expected to pay for said inspections.

If the tank is leaking near the bottom, you may or not smell oil at grade level. It depends on how for down the leak is. a 1080 gallon tank is going to be pretty darn big, so there could be 3 to 6 feet or more soil above any leak.

If your oil bills are suddenly spiking, there's bound to be a reason, and crooked oil delivery companies wouldn't be the most likely culprit. I'd put my money on it being a leak. If I were you, I'd want to get to the bottom of it PDQ.

BTW, it may be possible to convert your existing oil-fired boiler to gas. A good HVAC contractor could advise you. A conversion, if it's possible, might cost less than installing a new oil tank in the basement. (Do you have access to the basement big enough for a new tank to even pass through?)

Thanks jamesk and everyone who took the time to reply. We have a gas fed water heater a few feet away from the furnace, so maybe a gas line could be run to it also. I will check into that. One tank insurance company told me the inpection was free, but I will check further tomorrow.

I was also told if a leak is found they are legally required to report it, so I'm a bit hesitant on that front, as I might be responsible without having insurance. I had never heard of tank insurance before, but I'm wishing I had. I have a large basement, and a stairway of a few steps leading to it. I was thinking of a 275 tank and filling it frequently. How do the oil companies fill it there, and is it a fire hazard in a basement?

Would the underground tank be able to be capped so it could be opened later? Thanks again!

We advise our fuel customers with underground storage tanks to remove them and replace them with basement tanks.

If you plan on selling the home, you'll have to disclose the fact that you have an underground storage tank. Most buyers will request that the tank and soil are tested as a condition of sale. The only way to truly test a tank is to dig it up, so you might as well get rid of it.

The idea of testing or insuring a 40+ year old tank of any kind is ridiculous considering the value of a home.

You REALLY need to get yout tank checked out . . . . ASAP

Thinking that you may have a leak and 'solving' it by installing a tank in the basement is not a good course of action

Get it inspected and if it's leaking DIG IT UP - ASAP

You can bury a new one in the same hole

Don

Ignoring the possibility of a leaking tank is not going to make the problem go away. Chances are, the problem will only get worse and eventually cost more to clean up.

I don't know what the laws are in NYC regarding underground oil tanks, but if you want to sell the property in the future, you will most likely be required to disclose the existence of an underground tank and any prudent buyer would insist on testing for soil contamination as a condition of sale. If the tank has in fact leaked, you're going to have to deal with it. Doing so now, will probably be cheaper than at some time in the future.

Here in Washington State, if a tank has NOT leaked, it can be decommissioned and abandoned by draining all oil and residue, scrubbing the tank with special detergents, filling it with an inert substance that precludes it ever being refilled (usually a special hardening foam or gravel), and removing all above-ground vents, oil lines and filler ports. Once those things are done it is certified by local authorities as decommissioned and clean, and the tank can be left in the ground. If, however, the tank has leaked, then it has to be removed along with all contaminated soil. Further testing will determine if ground water in the area has been contaminated, and if so -- then it gets really, really expensive.

If you were to put a new oil tank in the basement, it would need a filler port on the outside of the building. These are usually a pipe line that runs from the tank to a spot near to or on the exterior building foundation accessible to the oil delivery company.

As I mentioned above, since you have natural gas service, it may be possible to convert your existing boiler to gas firing. That would require replacing the burner and other components of your boiler so that it would function with a different fuel. A good heating contractor or possibly a plumber familiar with boilers could advise you if a conversion is possible.

Even if you are able to convert your boiler to gas, you're still going to need to deal with the oil tank. You can't just abandon it and leave it in the ground. It will come back to haunt you.

Thanks again for your replies! Every oil company I've spoken to in the last day or so though, said in all probability my tank isn't leaking and if it were I would know it by a VERY large increase in oil consumption, and possible odor. They told me just because it's old, doesn't mean it's leaking, and that they haven't come across too many actual leaking tanks.

I wouldn't hide the fact of an underground tank. I wanted to cap it for safety reasons. I will look into gas though as I don't see oil prices coming down much.

"Thanks again for your replies! Every oil company I've spoken to in the last day or so though, said in all probability my tank isn't leaking"
HAHA! they would be last ones to want you to know that...assuming they aren't insuring it. More money to them! With what you describe the ONLY way your costs could have shot up is either a) the oil company is outright lying or b) you have a bad leak!

"If you have an underground tank that's over 40 years old, there's a very good chance that it has corroded and is leaking."

Abso-freakin-lutely.

I'm sorry the whole way home oil marketing is done is vaguely absurd. (although propane marketing is absurd in a different way, I'll get to that in a moment) The oil company themselves so often install and maintain the equipment. I think that's a conflict of interest right there. Right now, February 16 2008, over on the invision board you will see 'experts' telling people they have to keep a brand new boiler running ALL SUMMER when it has NO HEAT LOAD just to preserve it. Absolutely ludicrous! They just want you to burn up more of their oil! They say "it won't take much oil"! LMAO! Insanity! I've calculated that my house's replacement oil burner was MASSIVELY oversized. I wonder who was responsible for that? Huh? Maybe whoever the oil supplier was at the time. I DO think the one I'm using now is honest. He was recommended by the prior owners who said they went through a couple bad ones before finding him.

OK...propane. I have propane hot water and switched from "renting" to just buying a tank. The renting is an absolute scam. They charge you SO much more for the rental gas that the tank will pay for itself in about 1 or 2 years max. AND their pricing policies are frankly extortionate. (although I found a company now that delivers to my tank at a fairly reasonable price) They will charge as little as 2.40 if you are buying 1000 gallons but up to 4.20 if you are only buying 100! Can you imagine if you pulled up to gas station in a Prius and they said "sorry, your car gets such good mileage we are going to have to charge you $6 a gallon, while people in SUVs still pay $3!" Haha! And they won't let you "Rent" but a certain sized tank from them, to try to keep you from hedging your purchase. As at least you can with oil. I bought my first 275 gallons in the summer, which, this year, unlike last year, proved to be a very good hedge. Consumers - use your brain! Look at this website:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/hopu/hopu.asp

If you are paying much more than the average, something is wrong! Most people are suckers and oil and propane companies know it! I suspect, but can't easily prove, most "rate lock" plan from the big multistate suppliers are probably a scam. Hhhmmm, let's think about it, are they trying to protect your balance sheets or theirs? Trust me they probably have people who are better at running the numbers than you are. The NY times did an article last year about how a lot of people got screwed the year before last by locking in during the summer, only to have prices fall. I just buy from my supplier when I need the stuff at whatever price he has at the time. He's much cheaper on a adhoc spot basis than the big companies that try to force you into agreements.

I thought your original posting was because of a VERY large increase in oil consumption.

You can take whatever advice you'd like....but the fact remains -- you're going to have to deal with the tank at some point. If not now, then when you try to sell the property. People are much more savvy about the perils of buried tanks than they used to be -- and questions will be asked.

An then, of course, there's always the possibility that a neighbor will sue you first, when oil form your leaking tank contaminates their basement.

Even if your 40+ year old buried tank isn't leaking (and based on your original post --- that sounds like a very optimistic assumption to me) it's been on borrowed time for years.

The oil companies will tell you anything to keep selling oil. Trust what they have to say at your own peril. They'll keep pumping oil as long as you let them -- but they won't be the one's footing the bill for a clean-up from a leaking tank. YOU WILL!

"More money to them! With what you describe the ONLY way your costs could have shot up is either a) the oil company is outright lying or b) you have a bad leak!
"If you have an underground tank that's over 40 years old, there's a very good chance that it has corroded and is leaking." Abso-freakin-lutely."

This advice above is somewhat subjective.
Ground conditions, drainage conditions and location have much to do with a tanks life. A problem with your boiler can ruin your fuel economy easily. Your being rather reactionary by posting about dishonest companies. Your basing comments largley on your own inexperience with hvac and also a fair amount of suspicion.
It would be equally dishonest to hide a leak, would it not?
-br

My oil usage seems higher for these past 3 months, but adding up the usage for last year not that much more. It's hard to tell as there was oil in the tank before I started counting how much was used for this year. An oil company that I wasn't using told me they didn't see that many tank failures so I don't know. It is an old tank though. Changing to gas would avoid any more leaking if there is some.

I want to speak to several testing companies, and see what they think. A lot of properties where I am have been torn down and new houses built. The land is worth more than the house, so it might not be that much of an issue as the soil would be excavated for the foundation in that case.

A dumb question. Can the oil company pipe the oil back out, and would it be usable to them then? They really were supposed to let me know about a future delivery and they didn't. Thanks again!

"Can the oil company pipe the oil back out.."

They would pump it into a new tank for your use. It doesn't go back in their truck for refund or resale.

"My oil usage seems higher for these past 3 months..."

Did it seem like someone cleaned and serviced the burner this year?

-br

"Did it seem like someone cleaned and serviced the burner this year?"

Blondelle, the OP (that means original poster): "My boiler is cleaned on a regular basis"

"I've calculated that my house's replacement oil burner was MASSIVELY oversized. I wonder who was responsible for that? ".

Most all natural gas, propane and oil fired boilers we see are oversized. Many were installed before homes were insulated & weatherized, installed when fuel was cheap, or installed by plumbers, amateurs, fly-by-nights, homeowners, brother-in-laws, low bidders etc.

We've heard all sorts of wacky conspiracy stories about how oil companies purposely install oversized equipment, oversized nozzles etc, but the customer ultimately calls the shots with their wallets. Since we have a free market, customers can choose to hire professionals that don't sell heating fuels to properly size, design, install, setup and service their heating systems. Customer demand for cheap installations and cut-rate service is often the cause of poor system design, oversizing, poor burner setup and poor service

There are enough people with poorly insulated, poorly weatherized homes with old windows and oversized, inefficient, poorly designed, poorly maintained heating systems that heating oil and propane companies don't have a problem selling large quantities of fuel without installing a single heating system. Customer neglect and cut-rate service increases consumption as well.

Can you imagine if you pulled up to gas station in a Prius and they said "sorry, your car gets such good mileage we are going to have to charge you $6 a gallon, while people in SUVs still pay $3!"

If the gas stations owned the fuel tank in your Prius and drove their tankers 30 miles to your home sell you a few gallons of gas, you can bet your life they'd have a lease fee and a short-charge. Plus they'd lose in-store sales of coffee, cigarettes, beer, junk food, lottery tickets and high margin groceries.

"Can the oil company pipe the oil back out."

Some companies will haul it away, some will filter it before pumping back in a new tank and some will just pump it back into a new tank.

I was trying to make people think. BUT..."installed when fuel was cheap" I admit is a big factor, especially for anything installed/built before the oil crisis of the late 70s.

"wacky conspiracy stories" - wacky, but is it untrue? Interesting how quickly my post attracted 2 rebuttals. Hhhmmm. Who's trying to hide something here? It's a known fact the tobacco companies spent BILLIONS to cover up the dangers of smoking. If you'd said something like that in 1970s, people would have called it a "wacky conspiracy story."

"to your home sell you a few gallons of gas"
Yes, but the point is, they aren't selling you a few gallons. If you have a 100 gallon tank that almost gets empty they are selling you 90 gallons at 2.50 base price...they still have revenue of $225. Fine. Charge me a $30 delivery fee on an amount less than 250 gallons. Don't charge me $4 for the propane, which turns out to be a short charge/delivery fee/tank rental addition of $135. They will pay their wholesale cost of the tank, which will last for years, in about 2 visits at that rate. At least, unlike cell phone companies, they don't try to make you sign a 2 year contract. (although I'm sure some do)

I had to call around. There are always a couple companies out there for the minority of the population who don't put up with the BS. What I'm doing now, as I said, will save me money in no more than 2 years time.

""wacky conspiracy stories" - wacky, but is it untrue? Interesting how quickly my post attracted 2 rebuttals. Hhhmmm. Who's trying to hide something here?"

Yes, most of the time the wacky heating oil conspiracy theories are false. The most popular conspiracy theories are that *full service* heating oil companies purposely install oversized equipment or oversized nozzles in order to sell more fuel. Simple Economics (The Demand for Lower Priced Installations, Cheap Service and Competitive Bidding) are responsible for the majority of unlicensed no permit-no inspection installations, corner cutting, code violations, oversized equipment, oversized nozzles, poor system design, poor burner setup and poor standard/annual/emergency service. Since professional installations and professional standard/annual/emergency service charges are very expensive, many people choose lower priced installers and lower price service people that cut corners in order to offer lower prices.

The conspiracy theories don't jive with the way our free market system operates. If we installed oversized equipment, oversized nozzles, and performed poor annual service, we'd lose fuel customers, installation customers, annual service customers, standard service customers, emergency service customers, service contract customers, and customer referrals. Since many companies rely on repeat business, long term customers, customer referrals and new customers, poor installations and service would kill off a large portion of their existing and future market.

"I had to call around. There are always a couple companies out there for the minority of the population who don't put up with the BS. What I'm doing now, as I said, will save me money in no more than 2 years time."

Yes, we have some smaller propane delivery companies with better rates for short deliveries. Many rural small tank low usage customers own their tanks/regulators and transport them to the filling stations to save money. Propane isn't competitive like heating oil and kerosene in some regions since their aren't as many delivery companies in comparison to Full Service, COD and Mom and Pop Oil Companies.

"Most all natural gas, propane and oil fired boilers we see are oversized."

True indeed. Of course your heating system is supposed to be oversized; so that in the very worst of weather, your system is capable of handling it.
It isn't the result of a poor install.(necessarily)
It's equal evidence of a good install.
-br

Isn't November to March more like 5 months? 5 x 125 gals is 625 gals of oil.

Yes. It is.
Which means there is no issue here.
I don't however think it's going to matter.
Facts have been easily overlooked in this thread.
-br

No, it's 3 months unfortunately. Beginning of Nov. to beginning of December is one month, to the same time in January is 2 months, till the same time in the beginning of March IS 3 months.

"Most all natural gas, propane and oil fired boilers we see are oversized."

True indeed. Of course your heating system is supposed to be oversized; so that in the very worst of weather, your system is capable of handling it."

The heating systems I'm talking about (mostly boilers) are grossly oversized for the design heat loss of the home, not slightly oversized as a margin of safety or because the installer performed a rule-of-thumb heat loss calculation. Since design conditions occur less than one percent of the heating season, properly sized boilers are effectively oversized 99 percent of the season, hence why sizing is critical and why some people use outdoor reset controls.

"Anyway, I just got a bill saying they delivered 639 gallon for three months from November to March."

"No, it's 3 months unfortunately. Beginning of Nov. to beginning of December is one month, to the same time in January is 2 months, till the same time in the beginning of March IS 3 months"

I'm starting to wonder what your situation really is.
The way you've presented it is not clear. I know it's clear to you; but "three months from november to march" is what is known as an oxymoron.

As to "trying to do what is best" You alluded to capping the tank in a way that "lets the new owner convert from gas" in your OTHER post about this.

That means that you could walk away from your leaking tank.
And that, is the hidden carrot in this whole discussion.
You're looking for a way to not be liable if the tank is actually leaking.
You can make it appear to an outsider that you only converted to save money with gas;
but really you're killing 2 birds with one stone.
"doing what's best" - yes...for you.
I have news for you; in NYC they almost certainly will make YOU dig the tank before ANY sale; because banks and municipalities no longer want that liability of an underground tank. So your idea of "uncapping" the tank is fraudulent in it's intent. Would YOU uncap a tank that you suspect was faulty? Of course not. So why would you present that as an option to a buyer? You wouldn't UNLESS you never told them you thought it was leaking. Shame on you.

__________________________________________________________________
Most all natural gas, propane and oil fired boilers we see are oversized."
"properly sized boilers are effectively oversized 99 percent of the season"

I agree Mark.
Post was just to bring out that oversized is not overblown.
-br

No, it's 3 months unfortunately. Beginning of Nov. to beginning of December is one month, to the same time in January is 2 months, till the same time in the beginning of March IS 3 months.

What about February?

I'm sorry! I mean to say till the beginning of February, not March. That's when I just had this larger delivery.

A reputable testing company won't test a 40 year old single wall steel tank of unknown condition, because of the possibility that the test would cause additional leakage, or worse, a catastrophic failure. A less-than-reputable company would probably test it for you, tho.

Around my parts, once the tank is out of use, the tank/property owner is required to remove it from the ground within 6 months. As some other posters have indicated, if you are going to stop using the tank, you should just go ahead and remove the tank, as a transfer of the property wont be possible until the tank is removed, and if there is a problem, you are better off knowing about it now, while you have time and flexibility in how to deal with it, rather than later, when you may have neither.

I have seen instances where oil companies have been considered to be partly liable for oil contamination clean-up. These have occurred when homeowners had a long standing relationship with one particular oil company where the oil deliveries are scheduled based on heating degree days, where a giving house is known by the oil company to have a certain usage for a known number of heating degree days, and where the homeowner had a service contract with the oil company that included maintenance of the tank and lines. A substantial unexplained jump, especially if it is a large one, indicates a leakage problem with the storage system. But these are clear cut cases, like the tank was filled with 600 gallon in November, and then in December there is a no heat call due to the tank being empty, and the oil company just went ahead and put in another 1,000 gallons of oil without checking to see why 800 extra gallon of oil was used in a one month period.

In your case, it doesnt sound like a catastrophic failure. It sounds, maybe, like a slow leak.