Advice on HVAC renovation

11 years ago

We are doing a pretty major renovation on a 1929 house which has original cast iron hot water heat and some later baseboards, fueled by a gas boiler that was replaced about 5 years ago. The contractor is advocating that we take out the current heating system and install gas forced air throughout the house.

I have read here and elsewhere that hot water is an attractive heating system and I personally like the hot water heat. I have lived in houses with GFA and cold winters and have not liked it as much, however the technology has perhaps been improved since then.

Current cooling is via a whole house fan and window units.

We are in the Chicago area so both heat and a/c are needed in the house.

I have come up with three potential plans to move forward on the HVAC:

1. Install GFA throughout the house. This would give us more room as we'd lose the radiators and baseboards but would need to have ducting installed.
2. Keep current hot water heating and install spacepak (or equivalent) for a/c. This keeps the even hot water heat but requires installation. The contractor says he thinks the cost for GFA will be about the same as that for spacepak. Not sure if I believe that yet.
3. Keep most of current hot water heating and install a ductless mini-split system for some of the renovated rooms that need a/c and heat; continue to use hot water, fan, and window units for less-occupied rooms.

Are there other options not listed here? I admit that my preference is to keep the current heating but it will be an uphill battle to convince everyone if there's no cost or performance advantage vs. GFA. Thanks!

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Comments (12)

HEProfessional
11 years ago
Certainly keep your hot water system . Install any type of heat emitter you choose in the new rooms and find someone who will install split system ductless in those areas for A/C . GFA cannot and never will be as efficient nor as comfortable as Hot water heat . Make sure whomever you have do this performs a heat loss calculation for the old part of the home as well as the new . Install a new boiler that is efficient . Do not bite on a salesman's hook of a 90%+ boiler ,. These are modulating / Condensing boilers and will not ,I repeat will not acheive their advertised efficiencies with the high temperature return water that you have . See Lowered Expectations , John Siegenthaler (google it) . Get a nice boiler around 85% AFUE and install a variable speed pump and outdoor reset . Simple , inexpensive and the best you could want in your house . Don't be a prey item for someone who thinks he is intelligent ! Good luck with your Reno and if neccesary I can steer you to a professional blog that can assist you in finding the right man for this job in your area .
HEProfessional
11 years ago
Also check out Thermal comfort : a 40 grit perspective for consumers .
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I'm disappointed that what had at first seemed a very balanced comment was followed by what seems to be misinformation and misdirection. People buy ground source heat pump equipment because they want to and can afford it. Or decide they need to in their locations. They're hugely more expensive than alternatives, which is why they're still not very common. "When’s the payback on a Tesla? People still choose to buy them for reasons other than the ‘bottom line’." Not a comparable. A false analogy. "I would not choose natural gas or propane for reasons relating to the environment, safety, IAQ & paying for yet another utility hookup for an energy source that might not even be used for months on end during the year." What effect having a gas furnace has on indoor air quality. Another hookup? Most people prefer gas cooking appliances and besides, the OP is talking about an existing home, he either has gas service or he doesn't. "Rather than spending perhaps tens of thousands of dollars on a Solar Array, I would sooner invest that same money, hopefully less, in a ground loop for a Geothermal system." Sure you would, that's the business you're in. The ground source heat pump market is not growing as expected by those in the industry, which suggests that your opinion isn't widely held or easily sellable. In many parts of the country, solar panels can have a quick payback. Not so ground source heat pumps. "I often hear about Solar Panels when geothermal is mentioned, as an alternative way to save money by creating energy." In a place like Texas, where electricity is cheap (other than during cold weather crises as they just experienced) there's likely no payback from a solar panel installation. People do it as a personal statement, call it for environmental or other personal reasons. Like buying the Tesla, not a financial decision. An HVAC system blows warm air when it's cold, cool air when it's hot. It's one of those things people don't care about - either it works or it doesn't work. Spending extra money for an exotic system doesn't equate to extra payback when the home is sold. Neither owners, nor visitors, nor people passing by, nor anyone else, concern themselves with what's doing the work. It's equipment that doesn't produce an experience for someone in the house if it's working. In the US, there are vast areas where electricity is cheap. It will remain so for some time. People don't spend money today to potentially save money 10 years out when market conditions may or may be different. I suspect you could build a house with mahogany or teak framing. Or you could paint the framing bright colors. Why bother, you can spend less money and effort and get something else that will do the same job. "We almost never use setbacks at our home - even when going on vacation for weeks on end with no one home, our geothermal just runs." You're combining two different things to produce confusion. Thermostats that have a setback feature ALL are set up to provide lower overnight temperatures to have more comfortable sleeping conditions and then a recovery in the morning before wakeup time. As sleep specialists recommend. That in demand comfort features isn't possible with ground source heat pumps because the warm up period from a setback is too slow to be convenient to use, absent triggering a secondary heating source (like a furnace) to help. THAT'S why you don't "believe" in setbacks with a heat pump - they don't work. Turning down a thermostat during heating season when the home will be unoccupied is not a "setback" as that word is most commonly used. It's done to save money, why heat a vacant house? No setback thermostat is needed, even a dumb 50 year old analog thermostat can be turned down.
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jackfre
11 years ago
I would suggest looking behind door number 3. If you install the mini-split heat pumps you will find that they will heat very nicely and do an excellent job on the cooling and dehumidification as well. If I was looking at a mid-80% efficiency boiler I would suggest a Buderus.

The Space-pak system works well but doesn't have near the technology of the mshp or the efficiency. They tend to be noisier as well due to the velocity of the air. If the install isn't very precise they can really sing a tune. The best brands of mshp are Fujitsu, Mitsubishi and Daikin. I'm sitting in a room heated by a Fujitsu 12 RLS as I write this. I'm a fan!
mike_home
11 years ago
Can you describe your 5 year old boiler? It would be a shame to get rid of it.
fsq4cw
11 years ago
Yes, there's another option that hasn't been mentioned.

You can install a geothermal liquid-to-water heat pump, keep all your cast iron radiators (why would you want to destroy the heritage value of your home!), keep your existing gas boiler as a backup, add supplemental hydronic fan coil units for both heating and air-conditioning and NEVER have to install ducts, HV or mini-splits - ever!

This system would be energy efficient in the extreme, require very little maintenance, greatly increase your resale value and not alter the heritage value of your home. Heating, cooling, cast iron - no ducts, no mini-splits on the walls!

Might be more expensive up front but may also be WAY less expensive over the life cycle of the system.

SR
WinnetkaJAK
Original Author
11 years ago
Thanks to everyone for the comments so far; keep 'em coming!

Responses:

@HeProfessional: I will check out the links. I admit that the second one was pretty much incomprehensible to me, but that might have been my late reading time. I'll give it another try. I was worried about the return heat too. What is the maximum temp return heat for efficient condensing boiler operation? Also, does using the boiler for both heating and household hot water make any difference?

I would also love a reference to someone in my area who know hydronic and ductless HVAC as most of the information I'm getting so far is from GFA experts.

@Jackfre: My research has produced the same results; I think Spacepak is probably off the list.

@mike_home: It's a Peerless MI series. Link is below.

@fsq4cw: I'll look into that further. I did some research but rejected this option as we live in a flood plain and there are very strict rules on excavating needing to incorporate "make up" soil. Maybe I was too hasty.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peerless MI series
Elmer J Fudd
11 years ago
fsq....

You must get a commission on sales of ground source heat pumps, it's the only recommendation you ever make.

I think you've said you live near Montreal, an area with long and very cold winters and cheap electricity. It's great that you're so enthusiastic about this topic, but you should understand that many parts of the US have much higher residential power rates than you pay. You're not talking about small cost differences but very large ones, not just operating costs but also including the high equipment and installation costs of what you're suggesting.

When gas service is available, it's usually the best choice for heating. In whatever configuration, whether to heat air or to heat water.
ionized_gw
11 years ago
Look at all the mini-split options in addition to high wall mounted indoor units. Also available are ceiling cassettes, and relatively easily-hidden small air handlers that can serve two or more rooms. Some kind of mini-split retaining the hydronic would be my choice having lived with hydronic, forced air and mini-splits.
fsq4cw
11 years ago
Re: WinnetkaJAK

High conductivity Bentonite grout is almost universally used and should not be a problem as "make up" soil. You may have been too hasty or misinformed.

Re: snidely

I only receive commissions on those I sell or projects I consult on. May I sell you one?

I am in Montreal and in fact do recommend other systems as well, particularly when clients do not want to invest the capital that geo demands. Some projects are hybrid solutions involving natural gas and geothermal or air-source technologies.

I do understand that most parts of the US have higher electrical rates but have never come across a region where geothermal is not recommended by our industry due to electrical costs. In the end the client does what's best perceived for them, I'm just presenting another option.

I do appreciate your comment (sincerely).

SR
Elmer J Fudd
11 years ago
Clever comment, fsq. I too have never experienced a situation when a salesperson doesn't recommend their most expensive product, at least to start. I love salesmen, they make things happen, but the fact that something is recommended doesn't mean that the recommendation is sound.

Also clever word choice in calling the up front money an investment. Where gas is available and electricity is not cheap, getting a ground source heat pump is not an investment, because there's no return. It's a cost, and often a very expensive one.

Heat pumps are mostly unknown in my area for cost reasons. With $1.20/therm gas and $.30 per kwh electricity (top price tier hit with only about 350 kwh per month), you'll understand why.
fsq4cw
11 years ago
snidely:

Where are you located?

SR
Elmer J Fudd
11 years ago
Coastal California between SF and LA. Check rates for PGE, the top tier is 35 cents per kwh (I was wrong with 30) on monthly usage over ~ 550.

Advice on HVAC renovation

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