All is fair except that the current players are paying for the sins of others. I bet a lot of them get recruited elsewhere. I'm glad they have a chance to make a change without having to sit out a year. I bet the recruiters are circling like vultures at the moment.

PSU will have a hard time getting good players in the future because there is no chance of going to a Bowl game for four (?) years. I am so glad this is sending huge message to other schools that have Football Programs with universities attached. Get your priorities straight!

I don't know enough about college football programs work, but I do understand that this decision will have a huge impact not just on the football program and university, but on the entire community that counts on revenue from those attending the games. However the crimes that were committed and the coverup by many in the administration was heinous.

The players are allowed to transfer to another school without the typical sitting out a year that's normally required by the NCAA. Still, most schools have their rosters in place by now and how many of these players will leave.

ALthough these sanctions are severe, I still feel they should have NO football program for at least a year until they thoroughly clean house and reboot. Removing the Paterno statue is a start. Unfortunately, there is no way to sanction the University and football program without it affecting students.

I do recognize that many businesses depend on regular football revenue to make it, and that is sad.

It's not only businesses that depend on football revenue, but lots of other programs at the school. I don't think the school and all of its current students should be punished which they will be by the fines and restrictions being levied. Fire the administrators, the coaches and the board of regents instead.

From what I understand, the cover-up happened because the school put the football program above legal and ethical considerations, and they did so not only with respect to this specific scandal but also in terms of player behavior. There was an article a week or two ago about an administrator who was basically pushed into resignation a few years ago because Paterno was so resistant to holding football players to standard when it came to their conduct. Covering up what Sandusky did was the most egregious thing that the school did, but it was not the only thing they covered up because they wanted to "protect" the football program.

Is it unfortunate for the players and local businesses that they're affected by the sactions? Yes. But I also think that the NCAA is sending an important message, not just to Penn State, but to every college football program out there. Ethics matter, and cover-ups can and should be penalized. I think that what's happening to the school is appropriate. Hopefully they use this time to make some serious adjustments to their priorities and how they run things.

Here is a link that might be useful: article about the administrator

I agree, this is a systemic problem top-down at the University, and they need to be punished. I do feel horrible about current students, etc., but it is a warning to other universities who put athletics above everything else. I graduated from a school that has a big-time program and I really feel for the current players and students.

Sandusky was "allowed to retire" in 1999, but he was awarded emeritus status and full access to all facilities. This is unforgiveable, and too many people knew about it.

I agree, the whole board of directors should be let go as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jason Whitlock column about coverup

I'd like to see the NCAA approach applied to the financial sector.

Agree, suero, that would be a good start, wouldn't it?

If I was queen of the universe I would have shut down Penn State's football program for at least a year, AND fired everyone complicit in the coverup, AND administered the bowl ban for four year past the reinstitution of the football program. And kept every other sanction in place as well. I can think of no punishment that is "too much" in this situation.

Everyone involved in the despicable coverup of a SERIAL CHILD MOLESTER punished the students, players and community NOT the NCAA.

Here is an article that articulates pretty well some of my concerns on this situation. I sincerely question whether or not these punishments truly represent justice for the victims and whether or not they even begin to address what truly allows such a culture to gain so much power.

Here is a link that might be useful: SI piece on the NCAA punishments.

I think it's punishing the innocent players and other sports teams that rely on football revenue to exist. However, I'm sure Penn State will still sell football tickets, but the bowl revenue is gone for 4 years - that's a lot of money.

I think a better punishment would be for the university to be under a long term probation period where they have to have revamped compliance etc.

The good thing this does is send a huge message to all the other programs out there that are covering up god knows what - and you know it goes on other places - that they better get their acts together and clean up their programs.

My question is where does the $60 million fine go that they are requiring Penn State to pay? I also think that if the NCAA can access that large of a penalty fine, it opens up a huge precedent for litigation awards that will be filed against Penn State by the victims of Sandusky.

Donations to the University will probably all but dry up since who wants to donate money to be paid out to lawyers and civil suits?

from NBC Sports via MSNBC.com

"The NCAA said the $60 million is equivalent to the annual gross revenue of the football program. The money must be paid into an endowment for external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at Penn State."

gsciencechick, thanks for the link to the article by Jason Whitlock. It says it all!

Unfortunately there are always innocent victims who suffer whenever consequences or punishments are doled out. Paternos family is suffering, lots of Penn state students are suffering, etc. I think the NCAA went about as far as they could in accommodating current team members by offering them the choice to play, to transfer without redshirting, or to stay at Penn without playing. The clear, simple message to the people who looked the other way was, "Do the right thing, or you will go down with the perpetrator." I'm hopeful that more pedophiles will be brought to justice by the more assertive and persistent actions of the people around them now, not just at Penn State but all over. I am truly sorry for all of the innocent victims here, but it isn't the first or last time that many others besides the perpetrator paid a price. I do feel that such a loud, clear message, even at the cost of some innocent people being affected, has a chance of changing things for the true victims of this evil.

Unfortunately there are always innocent victims who suffer whenever consequences or punishments are doled out. Paternos family is suffering, lots of Penn state students are suffering, etc. I think the NCAA went about as far as they could in accommodating current team members by offering them the choice to play, to transfer without redshirting, or to stay at Penn without playing. The clear, simple message to the people who looked the other way was, "Do the right thing, or you will go down with the perpetrator." I'm hopeful that more pedophiles will be brought to justice by the more assertive and persistent actions of the people around them now, not just at Penn State but all over. I am truly sorry for all of the innocent victims here, but it isn't the first or last time that many others besides the perpetrator paid a price. I do feel that such a loud, clear message, even at the cost of some innocent people being affected, has a chance of changing things for the true victims of this evil.

I've heard several people today complain about the plight of current team members. But, you know, it's not the NCAA who is responsible, ultimately the responsibility goes back to Paterno and Sandusky. Blame those guys, not the NCAA.

"for they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind"

Until this Sandusky horror occurred, I'd never paid a whit of attention to Penn State. Never heard of Joe Paterno. Never cared about the Nittany Lions. (I'm a Beaver Believer-and a Duck when there is a Bowl game) I love football. I do feel badly for the young men who won't get the chance to play, but honestly...IT IS JUST A GAME. These kids are going to college to play football, they're not going to become rocket scientists. Colleges should be a place of academia, not breeding grounds for the NFL and NBA.

I hope that the NCAA's sanctions sets a precedent and sends a serious message-that the machismo money machine that is collegiate sports does not trump the law. That the all mighty dollar it spawns is not more important than innocents.

I'd love to see this become the first ripple in the pool of corruption that spans not just collegiate sports, but all sectors that place dollars and the associated power above human suffering. Wishful thinking, but I'm an optomist. Frankly, I loved that link gsciencechick posted. We DO need more women running things!

Pesky, there'd be no NFL, MLB, or NBA without college sports. It's the only way to see how a potential pro player does on the field.

Many of the players hope they make it to the Pro's. If not, at least they come away with a degree to fall back on, which many do.

The penalities are unfortunate, but had to be done.

" there'd be no NFL, MLB, or NBA without college sports. It's the only way to see how a potential pro player does on the field. "

How did our colleges become semi-pro recruiters for sports in the first place? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd?

I agree with Pesky. If the colleges were not the recruiting ground, another system would take it's place--like the old baseball farm team system. Or something completely different. But there'd be a system to funnel prospective athletes into pro teams.

When I was in grad school, I taught Freshman English. Because I liked the early morning classes, I had a lot of athletes from many different sports in my classes--they needed their afternoons free for practice.

Most of the student-athletes were great kids. They participated in class, wrote their papers and earned their grades like every other student, all while practice and competition took big chunks of their time.

The football and basketball players, on the other hand, felt that showing up in class was enough. Turning in a paragraph when asked for a 5 page paper was enough. Not turning in anything because "I had an away game," was enough.

The pressure put on instructors at all levels to pass these students and give them higher grades than they had earned was enormous. The counselors from the Center for Student Athletes would start calling right after mid-terms. They made it seem as if the student's low grade was the instructor's fault. We were told, not asked, to give extra tutoring, to allow multiple rewrites of papers (that were not offered to other students), chances to re-take exams.

I all too clearly remember one phone call where the counselor said, "Because of your grade, he will loose his scholarship." Well, no. He earned a C- in my class. To keep his scholarship, he needed a D+ average. So it was his work in other classes that was making him loose his scholarship and I told the counselor that. His grade in my class was *helping* his GPA.

I caught a lot of flack for refusing to cheat and give him a higher grade than he earned. Up to and including a meeting with the Director of Athletics and the head football coach. I had to get all his papers re-graded by three full professors, to prove that I wasn't unfairly marking him down. What finally stopped the pressure was when, in the meeting with the director and coach, I said, "I refuse to cheat. Changing his grade would be cheating." They really didn't have anything to say to that.

That sense of entitlement for athletes and the Athletic Department existed at every level in that university. There was no sex scandal, but there was a huge mess when it was discovered that they were misappropriating travel money. Even football players don't need $150 breakfasts, followed by $200 lunches and $500 dinners (that's per person). There were many other misuses of money in the department.

There was a big stink and some censure, but no one lost their job. I rather doubt that if a chemistry professor had tried something similar with her grant money if she'd still be working there.

It's not just the players and members of athletic teams who are affected. Although I am as disgusted and maddened as everyone and believe the football should have been shut down for a year, I also feel sorry for my daughter (Penn State sophomore) and the other kids at the school who have NOTHING to do with this.

My daughter didn't go to PSU for football. She went for academics. You wouldn't know, judging by the way the football program seems to have eclipsed academics, but there is waaaaay more to Penn State than football.

I'm not a native of PA. I didn't drink the football/Paterno "kool-aid." In fact, I was very turned off by the school's reputation for sports and partying and didn't think my kid should go. But when my daughter's college acceptances didn't turn out the way we hoped, she decided Penn State was her best option.

Her freshman year was fine academically and it was really towards the middle and the end that this scandal and the prosecution really began developing momentum. There were rumors around State College for YEARS about Sandusky and special treatment given to football players who behaved badly. The football players WERE like celebrities on campus. My daughter's world revolves around her classes and her school work. She doesn't go to games (the best thing about games, she says, is that the campus clears out and she doesn't have to battle crowds at the cafeteria or the library).

I think it will be different there this year. The Freeh investigation results and the NCAA penalties were announced AFTER school let out this May. When the kids get back to campus in September they are bound to feel some changes. Certainly they will all be affected.

I have urged my daughter to consider transferring to another university but she now has friends, likes her advisor, is learning, and (she's a scientist) the Penn State research labs offer opportunities to do work that she doesn't think she could do elsewhere.

But really, thousands of good kids are at Penn State to work and learn. I personally still wish my kid would go elsewhere but it's too late to transfer this year and she's assured me everything is fine. I hate paying another penny to that university. To me, this kind of institutional corruption doesn't go away just because a few heads roll. I'm pretty cynical. I wish too they would get rid of all the current trustees. Every single person who was in a position of authority needs to go.

Another detail here is that you have to remember, almost everyone in State College works for Penn State. There's nothing around for miles, just fields and open space. If you live in State College or around there, odds are your livelyhood is in some way connected to the university, which also creates a kind of "hive-mind," if you know what I mean.

Two little side notes: a friend of mine attended a Penn State Trustees lunch (her child graduated in the top of his class and this was a 'perk' for parents of top grads). She said everyone avoided Gov Gorbett, who was at the lunch.

Also, Penn State is barely a state college. They should just take the "state" part of of their name because the portion of PSUs budget that comes from state money is very small. That is why it has the highest tuition and cost of attendance of all the nation's public colleges. This goes for the PA "state universities" such as Temple and Pitt as well.

Yes, there are those who are innocent who are affected by this and for those I am sorry. However, I totally agree with KSWL and Kelly! Those involved in this got what they deserved.

"Colleges should be a place of academia, not breeding grounds for the NFL and NBA." Pesky - I SO agree with you!

tina

The scholarship students who get the non-athlete, work-study jobs and the people/students who get the lower level food service and support jobs and the townies who have businesses who are tied into the University are the ones who are really going to be screwed.

Even if I had been molested, I would hope that I wasn't so vindictive for the rest of my life that I wanted to screw complete strangers who had nothing to do with my situation, in that way.

A LOT of kids choosing a college want to go to big football schools with a great team to cheer for, lots of fun parties and games to go to, etc, etc, etc... yes, alot of these schools also have great academics to make it a W-W situation, but football and all that goes along with it is also a big draw (many of these kids probably come from families that are into sports/went to similar schools...) i used to live in a city with a big 10 school and i remember when moving there being told it was like a ghost town on game days and that was the truth!! a perfect time to run errands, etc!
it is sickening how sports figures are revered by so much of the public and how much money goes into professional sports-especially sports like football. it's a major form of entertainment for many people. so, it only makes sense that it's such a big deal in college(and some highschools)... the football program helps the big universities draw students- in state and OUT (more $!) so historically, they cater to the football program. the ncaa has set so many rules now, but there are lots of stories about the coaches and programs trying to get around the rules to recruit/be the best... there always are people out there trying to cheat the system. the bigger the payoff, the more cheating ... and the more energy spent trying to learn how to beat the system...(ie: PE drugs...many athletes use/d them to some degree and the game to learn is to how to mask them and get away with it)
i hope that what happened at penn state will convince other schools to do the right thing, even when (HUGE) reputations (or young lives...)are at stake... but, there's always those who think they're smart enough to 'handle it themselves' or 'not get caught', and unfortunately, money talks for too many people...

"...there'd be no NFL, MLB, or NBA without college sports."

Boo hoo. That doesn't strike me as a valid reason to completely change the nature of higher education from learning to professional sports recruiting.

Pal, the innocent bystanders are not being "screwed" by the NCAA sanctions. They are being screwed by the administration and football program that put money, power and prestige over morals, responsibility and the law.

They are being screwed nonetheless, whoever is doing it, technically. Parts of this smack of public relations on the NCAAs part, revenge and vindictiveness as much as justice.

I cannot begin to express odd I think the use of the words "revenge" and "vindictiveness" are in this context.

Then don't express it. The perpetrator is in prison. One of the major players is dead and in disgrace, and a number of the other major players in the cover up have already been fired.

Justice stops at a certain point and revenge and vindictiveness take over from there. Would you be happy if the entire university was obliterated? Why not just close it down completely. Do any of you have a personal relationship with anybody who was victimized here?

I don't personally have a relationship with any of the victims, except as an adult member of the human race and a citizen of the United States, to be ashamed that such a thing happened.

I have read comments by parents of current students lamenting that the entire Penn State "family" was having to suffer for the misdeeds of a few. Unfortunately, the misdeeds were not confined to the individuals who perpetrated the crimes or covered them up--- they were institutionalized as part of the culture of the university. When that happens, the culture has to change--regardless of how painful that might be for the "family."

I think the NCAA is using this case to send a message. You know, the "Do this at your school and see what happens to you" type of message.

In part, they just want to make sure this sort of cover-up doesn't happen again.

In part, whoever decided on these sanctions knew full well that if the punishment weren't pretty severe, there'd be a huge public backlash, and cries that everyone involved was getting off easy and the punishment should have been harder.

Basically, a no-win situation for the officials involved.

If this had just been one or two people on the football team looking the other way, the sanctions would be too severe. But this was a lot of people over the course of many, many years, looking the other way.

Just because someone's involved with football doesn't mean they can get away with this sort of thing. That's the real message that a lot of people involved with college athletics need to learn. I think that's the message the NCAA is trying to send.

"except as an adult member of the human race and a citizen of the United States, to be ashamed that such a thing happened".

Okay then, as a member of a society that allows things like this to happen, how are you taking Your Personal punishment for letting this happen to the victims?

I agree with Pal.

I'm personally revolted by what happened, and embarrassed for people who seem not to understand the gravity of what happened. As I am not a member of the PSU extended family, that is the extent of my punishment. If I were intimately connected with the school (parent, alum, booster) or financially dependent upon it in any way, I would hope that I'd have the restraint not to argue for a lesser punishment.

How do you know that I don't understand the gravity of what happened?

To imply that anyone who questions in any way that the punishment affects people that it should not somehow condone the situation or are simply too stupid to realize what happened is ridiculous.

But go ahead and speak in platitudes from your distance. I am sure the kids who got buggered in the showers appreciate your personal support. It helps So much.

"How do you know that I don't understand the gravity of what happened? "

I don't know that, nor did I mean to imply it. If that is what you derived from my post, I apologize that you took it that way and clearly it's time to close the conversation from my end.

i agree that the severity of the punishment was to avoid some public backlash of anger...

some people left the catholic church after all the atrocious and shameful coverup and scandals that took place within that huge, rich and powerful organization-lots of people stopped supporting it financially as much as they used to...
some people will leave penn state too and some people will stop supporting it financially as much as they used to...

hopefully some 'lessons' have been learned...

there have been so many atrocities throughout history and there will continue to be... makes you wonder if the 'human race' is capable of learning from others' transgressions...

I agree with kswl, 1000%!

This statement bears repeating:
Unfortunately, the misdeeds were not confined to the individuals who perpetrated the crimes or covered them up--- they were institutionalized as part of the culture of the university. When that happens, the culture has to change--regardless of how painful that might be for the "family."

I am sure the kids who got buggered in the showers. . .

Pal, your tone clearly shows that you don't understand the gravity of what happened.

I beg to differ, you know nothing about me.

I know you feel it is worthwhile taking down a university or the world to punish people, you've said as much before.

I am not so narcissistic to think that what happens to me is that important.

If innocents are suffering, let's not forget that because of the culture created at PSU, many benefitted for many years.

I believe the sanctions are exactly right. If it had been up to me, they would have been worse...but, then, I have sons.

"Boo hoo. That doesn't strike me as a valid reason to completely change the nature of higher education from learning to professional sports recruiting."

Tactful as always! Did I say that sports changes the nature of higher education? NO. Sports are just a small part of college. If a college has a successful team, then that's where the public focus goes.

There is no other way to recruit, if so I'd sure like to hear how you would change it. "Farm Teams" is aka Minor League," which is only in baseball. The players are mostly college graduates hoping to make it to the major leagues. Football doesn't have a minor league like that, they have some lowly independent league. College is the ONLY way to recruit, especially for football and basketball.

My college is #1 half the time, and football is huge here. But the university is also known as a darn fine school too. Now, if we had a major scandal like PSU, then I'm sure our excellent academia would be ignored.

Sports and learning can go hand in hand in a positive way. Don't let a few bad apples at PS spoil it for the other colleges.

College has become the only way to recruit. But that could be changed if enough people wanted the change.

Pro sports likes the way things are--they get to scout the college teams and chose the players they want. Eliminating colleges as a recruiting method would mean that the pro leagues would have to take on the expense of farm teams themselves. There could be "minor leagues" for every single sport out there, if the pro leagues wanted them. Instead, they let the colleges and universities take over that task, saving the leagues a ton of money.

"There is no other way to recruit, if so I'd sure like to hear how you would change it."

I guess recruiting for professional sports teams is not a biggie with me, and I would not worry about how to change it.
You haven't explained why that is the responsibility or mission of colleges.

The thing is that people all have different contributions to make in life. When a kid grows up to be an exceptional athlete, they provide lots of entertainment (and yes money at times) to our society. Not everyone is an academic superstar, nor would life be that interesting if it were that way. Contrary to the belief that these people have superior genes, the latest studies are pointing more and more to just sheer hard work and hours put into the effort. That is something to applaud not disdain. So for colleges to provide a path to success for artists, athletes, etc., and educate them along the way, is a win-win the way I see it. I'm not an athlete, and don't go to pro games or even hs games for that matter. But as I get older I can see the great contributions these souls make to our lives. There is certainly abuse in the name of sports. There is abuse in anything that involves power and/or money. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I believe the sanctions against Penn State were just right. They will eventually rebuild their program, but first they must face the consequences. They don't have to like it, but they have to do it.

No, that is actually a myth. There has to be some genetic "talent" for the sport, the physiological systems have to be there for large training responses that are beyond the average person, otherwise everyone could be successful at it and it wouldn't be special. Certain sports and positions require certain body sizes which has a lot to do with genetics, big or tiny, large or small muscles, strength or power vs. endurance, etc. It has to be the correct combination of genetic capability and training.

If I want to train for a road race, that is great, but I am no way going to improve my VO2max/aerobic fitness to the level of an Olympian or to even be competitive regionally. It just isn't there, and most people only average a 10% improvement over their baseline. If it's more than that, then the genetics were already there.

gsciencechick -Have you read The Outliers and The Talent Code?

KSWL, I believe you are up against a brick wall . . .

"I believe the sanctions against Penn State were just right. They will eventually rebuild their program, but first they must face the consequences. They don't have to like it, but they have to do it." I totally agree with these statements. I don't believe this is going to take down Penn State - it hurts, yes, but they will rebuild.

tina

But saying "the culture must change...*they must do it" is nothing but a clanging gong. Of COURSE it's the right thing to say. But unless the person who says it is personally working to effect change on some level, it is as hollow as the celebrity spokesperson for the Green Movement who has a combined total of 100,000 square feet in housing and travels to events in a helicopter or private jet.

No, but I have a PhD in exercise physiology. I'm not familiar with these, but if these books were important to my field, I probably would have heard more about them or see these authors present at my conferences.

There's also motor learning, socioeconimic status, goal setting, practice, coaching, culture, etc., that play a role. At the Olympics, everyone has talent, and it is often hundredths of a second between first and second place that may be infuenced by any of these factors. But we're dealing with people who are at a very high level of ability to begin with who can then quickly integrate real-time feedback combined with the above factors.
Personality factors also play a role, and these are largely not changeable.

I can work as hard as I want to, read books, and hire coaches, I am not going to be a good runner because the talent isn't there. I can aim to maybe run a sub 30:00 5K,but I am not ever going to run a 20:00 5K or probably even a 25:00 5K. That is not a reachable goal given my level of talent and ability.

Speaking of run, it's time to go for one!

Aha! I certainly defer to your knowledge and expertise. I suspected because of your username that you had a science background. I wouldn't say those books are "important to your field" necessarily, but you may find them interesting. In both cases, writers set out to find out what it is that separates the superstars from the rest of us. Malcolm Gladwell, in The Outliers, illustrates how the lucky, precise convergence of many factors, including the opportunity for 10,000 hours of practice, go a long way in creating the Bill Gates and Michael Jordans of our time. In The Talent Code, Daniel Coyle illustrates how "deep practice" leads to top-of-the-heap achievers, not just athletes but artists as well. So to bring this back to the value of different kinds of students at Penn State (and other universities), my point is that there is nothing disdainful about rewarding students who have worked and sacrificed to be successful in fields other than the academic ones. They ought to be held accountable in the classroom, sports team or not, and though they may never be a top student, the hope is that they come out after four years better educated than when they entered, at a level that is worthy of the institution's name. The coaches ought to be held to the same code of ethics that the teaching staff is, though that doesn't even happen in elementary school. For example, coaches are allowed to speak to students in ways that a teacher would never be allowed, and in fact would no doubt be fired for. The fact that the NCAA acted so swiftly and strongly may mean that other institutions, who have been getting away with stuff for too long as well, will clean up their own houses. But it shouldn't mean that we throw out sports programs altogether.

Yes, I'm familiar with the 10,000 hour rule. The funny thing is a lot of successful people don't call it practice. DH remembers reading about metal guitarist Yngwie Malmsteem who liked to boast that he doesn't practice, yet his neighbors said he plays 8-10 hours per day, LOL.

No coach has ever asked me to change an athelte's grade. All schools I've been at, including the big football school, really watch the athletes like a hawk and are very proactive with intervention if they are doing poorly. We have to do mid-semester reports on them. I was worried about some basketball guys I recently had a few semesters back, but they did their own work (clearly no one was writing for them), met with me during office hours, and passed on their own merits.

Now, of course, our women's sports are a whole other issue. Overall, the ladies are superior multi-taskers and many of them are academically strong. I had one student-athlete get multiple acceptances to graduate programs.

Just a link of interest to show which schools do have a top graduation rate for their athletes None seem all that great, btw, but I haven't checked the overall graduation rate for students who entered as freshmen. May go try to find that as well as the lowest rate for graduating athletes.

Here is a link that might be useful: college athlete graduation standings