That's one of the big discussions on many threads here. The open burners are liked by those who appreciate being able to take things apart to thoroughly clean each piece, and spills and crumbs are allowed to fall through rather than sit on the surface right under the grate and burn on. The flame goes straight up, instead of out to the side, so some will argue that it's more efficient, and better on smaller pans,since the flame will come up underneath, rather than up the outsides. The BlueStar has very open (and star-shaped for efficiency) burners and Wolf offers both sealed and their version of the open burner, which is sometimes referred to as 'semi-sealed', or is it 'semi-open,' because there are tighter tolerances than on the BlueStar, so it's kind of in-between...Not everything can fall through and lands in a kind of a bowl right under the burner. With open burners, you can take components over to the sink for scrubbing and soaking. With sealed, you just scrub and wipe in place. I've read that they often stain or collect gunk right around the burner. Others love the sealed, don't want to take their cooktops apart, and say a bit of Barkeeper's Friend deals with anything that's baked on or trying to stain. This is just a quick synopsis of what I remember from the many discussions I've read. I have no experience myself with either one, but will soon. I wish I could try both for awhile to know which I really prefer, but that, of course, is not an option. You can go to the appliance forum page, go to the bottom and do a search for sealed or open burners and probably get links to many, many previous threads to read.

Still going through over 20 pgs of small-type print, but I wanted to drop in to clarify a couple of points really fast. 1) DD has no "problems" socially. She tells me often about how people react with disbelief at the fact that 1) she's really smart even though she wears mascara and straightens her hair (quiet laughter on my part here--such a HUGE change from last year!) and 2) she homeschooled up until last year, because she 'seems so normal' (makes her laugh every time). We learned through our years of homeschooling that stereotypes are powerful and can be powerfully misleading, and often say more about the person who's making the assumptions than they do about the person who's being stereotyped. She's made many people reconsider their stereotypes and pigeonholes. It's eerie how quickly and easily she slid into complete comfort at this mega-size school, but I give lots of credit not only to her but to the atmosphere the school creates - so far, people seem to fall over themselves to say sweet, supportive things to each other. She's got a wide circle of social friends and a good tight circle of close friends. She's got no fear at all, and is happy being id'd as a 'music nerd' since the music program at the school is big and high-profile. In fact, the one time some of the 'popular' girls tried to do a 'mean girls' thing to her in science class, she laughed at them and acted it right back at them (at least I did my homework preparing her by having her read all the 'Reviving Ophelia' and Queen Bee' -type books--thanks, Amy!!) so hilariously that they ended up inviting her to their table and have become good friends (I've seen it corroborated when I pick her up from things). Those aren't the kids she prefers to hang out with, but I mention it to show that she's got social skills that people may not associate with the stereotypical 'homeschooler'. Our world-learning wasn't stereotypical, either -- I hardly taught her anything, actually -- I was more like the concierge who found resources to facilitate her exploring her interests, and chauffeur to her various classes/activities. She's also comfortable being in advanced classes, has no problem with it, and she'll be doing AP classes next year and IB after that, and there are always options to take more advanced math at a local CC or state U. My only problem is that she's now letting the institution determine how curious she is about something--if she does enough to meet an assignment, she's done. No more investigating something for its own sake. It's *sad* to watch that really exciting drive in her life extinct itself (or more hopefully, go dormant). Which leads me to 2) A couple of years ago, I started volunteering solidly back in my field, and I'm gearing up to try to find paying work in it, albeit at a much lower level than before. I love what I do, I'm *thrilled* to be back in it, and I'm seriously not a stereotypical 'helicopter' mom. So not. Since she was about 10, I've actually tried not to be too involved, so she can have her own space in her activities. A somewhat extreme example: DD keeps asking me to be an orchestra-mum in the city orchestra she's in (you sit through all rehearsals and do volunteer work), but I just won't do it. The vast majority of those are stage-moms who make my skin crawl--the ones I think I talked about in another thread who seem to think that nonstop bragging is the highest form of conversation, and I don't want to be around them because they feel toxic to me. I want to relate to her orchestra in a positive way without all the drama. So I take her there and pick her up but don't prostrate myself before the altar of the conductor. We did arrange to have DH's company match our donation to this group, though -- the first time an employee had donated to the group at all, which is really strange, considering my DH's company's dominant position in the area. So we give in the way we feel most comfortable without hovering or pushing. I'll let moms who want to do that have the face time with the conductor. So I hope these further details maybe clarify some vaguenesses or misconceptions. I also hope you all know how unbelievably much your thoughts and support, and individual stories you've shared mean to me and my DH. He's reading the printout too and we'll have more specific thoughts later. The folks who come to this forum are gems, every one. And beyond that, the web is phenomenal, and not at all just a replacement for RL relationships; as you have pointed out, it offers opportunities and resources that RL just can't, sometimes. Anyway, I lerve you all : ) (oh, and the Greece thing -- I realize it may sound like she was sitting in a closet coming up with plans for the world, but it was actually for Model UN and is documented in her position papers as Greece's "Environmental Minister" (LOL) from last year. She actively participated in MUN with her resource center's team last year even though she was only an '8th grader', but this year at the huge/high school, MUN is overenrolled, so only Juniors and Seniors actually get to go to the event. There's an example of a very tangible difference in activities/involvements available to homeschoolers and to public schoolers...: ()

Thanks again Suzanne1...I'm so sorry about your Mom. @Hollysprings.... We are only doing a small update. Keeping our existing cabinets, and getting new countertops, sink, faucet and adding a backsplash.... We went to look at countertop material and happened to find a 5* granite that was marked down to a 1* price to get rid of the last 2 slabs they had. We loved it 100% more than anything in our price range and had to act right away or chance losing it. (There was some other couple eyeballing it after they pulled the slabs out for us to view) We held it and had our fabricator come look to make sure it was all we would need for out job) Once he approved it he had it taken to his shop, and we started getting the other pieces together. We also have a small budget. We had 2 sinks in mind, one would not work in our corner cabinet, the other was a budget buster. We looked in every local plumbing store but did not find this brand, and the online deal was what worked for our needs & budget. So very many things are ordered online these days, but that doesn't mean one should not expect a level of customer service and support. Maybe my rant made it sound like the delay was going to be detremental to my whole project, I didn't mean to give that impression. I simply had an expectation that I passed on to the fabricator based on what I thought was due diligence on my part. The company, IMO, dropped the ball and it it's frustrating. I wanted to 1) vent, and I appreciate the ability to do that. 2) Just let anyone else know that plans on ordering from this company what they may expect if they have a multi-product order. The company should have informed me so I could make a decision on what works best for me and my situation. I would have at least felt I had some control and would have been aware of the new reality. It was not until I contacted them did I learn of what was going on. My online order status even said my order was being picked and packed for several days which it was not. Then to get a rude service rep on top of it. It's just not right. It seems more and more you have to babysit the world. Now that a few hours have passed and as far as the big picture goes, It just means my granite install gets delayed. We will all be able to deal with that. I also know what to expect from this storefront and hopefully others will be aware now too.

Here's a story from that time period that is also worth reading. History continues to repeat itself! The Limits of Madness by Martin D. Weiss, Ph.D. 12-01-03 For the first time in many years, I was speechless. I didnât know what to say. It was Thursday evening, on Thanksgiving. My wife Elisabeth, my son Anthony, plus other family members stood around the dinner table, gazing at me patiently, waiting for me to open my mouth. But I was mute. My problem was simple: Elisabeth had asked each of us to say a few words about what weâre thankful for. But by the time my turn came around, all the more important things in life �" health, happiness, and love �" had already been covered by the others. Little did they realize, during those moments of silence, that a torrent of thoughts was flashing through my mind, most of which I will share with you now ⦠THE TRUE PESSIMISTS Some people on Wall Street seem to think Iâm a die-hard pessimist �" that I have nothing to be thankful for. They call me a âperma-bearâ for ânever recommending stocksâ or âChicken Littleâ for âpredicting one disaster after another.â Well, I have news for them: Iâve been recommending stocks throughout the bear market and throughout the recent recovery. The main difference is my stocks went up; most of theirs went down and are STILL way down from their peaks. As to the disasters �" the dot.com bust, tech wreck, bankruptcy crisis, accounting scandals, and broker scandals �" guess what! They happened. But thatâs all water under the bridge. Right now ⦠LOOK AT WHAT THE âOPTIMISTSâ ARE SAYING! The so-called âoptimistsâ say Fed Chairman Greenspan will continue holding down interest rates, and Congress will continue spending us into prosperity. They say no one has to worry about �" or deal with �" the ballooning federal budget deficit, the record trade deficit, or the huge debt burden of millions of consumers. They think the sinking dollar is âno big deal,â and we should âjust let it fall.â They donât seem to give a darn that your interest income has been reduced to a pittance. Nor do they seem to care very much about the havoc inflation can wreck on your retirement. They tell you ânot to worryâ about the threat to your Medicare or the danger to your Social Security �" let alone to the other retirement benefits that were promised to you. Worst of all, they seem to think thereâs no significant connection between the shaky pillars of our economy and the equally shaky pillars of our society �" falling educational standards, deteriorating public health, broken families. And they say âMartin Weiss is a pessimistâ?! Give me a break! WHY I AM REALLY A DIE-HARD OPTIMIST A few seconds had gone by, and I could smell the Thanksgiving dinner spread out before me on the table, still steaming from the oven. Anthony looked at me expecting a profound �" or humorous �" statement. But I kept my words to myself and pursued my thoughts in silence ⦠I am an optimist because I love my country. Yes, I see trouble ahead, but I disagree vehemently with the idea that our society is going down the tubes. All of the trends we are witnessing today �" fiscal irresponsibility, massive debt build-ups, and social malaise �" are part of a single, growth-at-any-cost megatrend. But theyâre coming to a head. And when they do, we will confront them. We will resolve them. And we will move on to better and safer times. Admittedly, we are half mad, always pushing ourselves to extremes, to the limits of our technological and economic capacity. This week, for example, the U.S. Commerce Department announced that the economy spurted forward at a breakneck speed of 8.2% per year �" a phenomenon largely driven by government tax cuts and spending. Sounds great, right? But at the very same time, Moodyâs, one of the worldâs leading credit rating services, announced that, if our government continues cutting taxes and spending without restraint, the United States of America could lose its triple-a credit rating! Thatâs not good. Not even close. THE LIMITS TO OUR GOVERNMENTâS MADNESS Fact is we are NOT on the right path. But there is a LIMIT to how far we can go down this path, and, sooner or later, we WILL reach that limit. Thatâs when we will rise to the occasion, make the sacrifices, and move on. Take the budget deficit and inflation, for example. In other lands and in previous times, deficits and inflation could run amuck, almost without limitation. Kings or queens �" presidents or prime ministers �" had almost unlimited power to temporarily inflate their economies. They could print paper money to their heartâs content. They could destroy their currency, drive millions of citizens into abject poverty, invite wars of ruin ⦠even threaten the world. Youâve probably heard the stories about the German hyperinflation during the Weimar Republic, before Adolph Hitler rose to power. Thatâs when it took three TRILLION German realmarks to buy just one U.S. dollar. Thatâs when their paper money was so utterly devalued people needed wheelbarrows to cart their cash around. Once, a man parked his wheelbarrow of money in front of a store while he shopped. When he returned, he was shocked to discover that it had been stolen. More shocking, however, was the fact that all the money bundles were left behind, stacked neatly on the ground. Even the thief knew that the wheelbarrow had more value than the worthless bank notes. Plus, last week, I told you about the currency destruction that I personally experienced in Brazil as a young boy �" and how, over the years, their money was devalued by a factor of one quadrillion (a thousand trillion) to one. These are vital lessons from history we must learn, and we seem doomed to learn them the hard way: Our government today is running up its debt at a rapid pace, just like the previous governments of Brazil and pre-Nazi Germany. Our leaders seem willing to sacrifice our strong dollar in order to keep the people happy and stay alive politically, much like the leaders did back then. But, as I also told you last week, the United States is not Brazil. Nor is it Weimar Germany. Indeed, there is one, all-important, structural difference that separates those episodes of hyperinflation from the United States of today: THE DEBT MARKET Unlike Brazil and Weimar Germany, we have a huge, powerful, fully developed debt market. They didnât. A debt market is where investors buy and sell government bonds, corporate bonds, mortgages, bank loans, and other debts �" much like investors buy and sell stocks. As in any market, when sellers are more numerous or aggressive, prices go down. When buyers have the upper hand, prices go up. You probably know this already. But bear with me. You may not be aware of its ultimate implications. The primary hub of our huge debt market is downtown Manhattan �" in the large, cavernous trading rooms of major broker-dealers and banks like Merrill Lynch, Salomon Smith Barney, J.P. Morgan Chase, Citigroup, Credit Suisse First Boston, and a few dozen others. Plus, thereâs a secondary hub �" in Chicago. Between Jackson Boulevard and Van Buren Street, the Chicago Board of Trade runs a 32,000-square-foot trading floor where, every day, they buy and sell futures contracts representing billions of dollars in U.S. government debt �" Treasury bonds and Treasury notes. About nine blocks to the north-northwest, the Chicago Mercantile Exchange operates two state-of-the-art trading floors for futures on Eurodollar deposits, Treasury bills, and other debt instruments �" also with billions of dollars changing hands each day. My point is this: The U.S. debt market is not just a small entity that exists on the periphery of our society. Itâs embodied in massive, tangible structures of concrete, marble, steel, and glass ⦠housing tens of thousands of staff ⦠and handling far more money than all the worldâs stock exchanges put together. Every day, millions of investors �" individuals, companies, cities, states, pension funds, universities, churches, and foreign countries �" buy and sell the debts in these huge markets. And every day, the market value of these debts goes up or down, depending on the supply of new debts being offered ⦠depending on the willingness of investors to buy them ⦠or ⦠contingent on the zeal of investors to get rid of their old ones. This goes far beyond the realm of money and finance. The debt market �" particularly the market for U.S. government bonds �" also serves as a de-facto POLITICAL FORUM, a place where U.S. government officials must ultimately answer for their sins. How? Itâs similar to what you saw recently in the stock market. Remember how wayward CEOs and CFOs faced their day of reckoning? Remember what happened to THEM when major accounting scandals were revealed? Investors dumped their shares like hot potatoes. Almost immediately, the companies either changed their ways or were smashed by the market forces. Heads rolled. Some CEOs were even marched off in handcuffs. A similar fate awaits wayward officials of the U.S. government �" but for them, it will be in the bond market. Sounds bad, doesnât it? But actually itâs a very good thing. Because it means there IS a LIMIT to their madness. You see, in other eras and other places, if you were unfortunate enough to lend your money to a reckless, irresponsible government, your choices were minimal: Youâd usually have to wait years until the bond matured. Then, if they paid you back in worthless money, tough luck! Unless you wanted to join a revolution, there was really nothing you could do about it. Today, thanks to the giant debt market, itâs another story entirely. FIRST, YOU DONâT HAVE TO WAIT. If youâre angry as all heck about the ballooning federal deficit, the threat of inflation, the sinking dollar, Medicare, Social Security, and anything else for that matter ⦠or ⦠if youâre worried the clowns in Washington are going to stiff you with cheaper money ⦠you donât have to just sit around and gripe about it. You can sell your bonds and get all or most of your money back at almost any time, almost any day. SECOND, POLITICS IS NO ISSUE. You donât have to hire a lobbyist. You donât have to run down to Washington to bang an angry fist on the desk of some faceless bureaucrat. You donât even have to wait for the next election. All you have to do is pick up the phone, call your broker, and utter one four-letter word: âSell!â THIRD, THE CENTER OF POWER HAS SHIFTED. Millions of people own bonds today. They own them directly in their IRAs, brokerage accounts, or trust accounts. Or they own them indirectly through a mutual fund, an insurance policy, a pension fund, or even a bank account. Any one of these investors or institutions has the power to utter that same four-letter word. SELL! This is so, so important. If you get nothing else out of my weekly âMartin on Monday,â you must get this. Because it means that ⦠THE ULTIMATE POWER TO DECIDE THE FATE OF OUR COUNTRY HAS BEEN TRANSFERRED FROM THE HANDS OF POLITICIANS INTO THE HANDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. THANK GOD! This ultimate power is more powerful than laws, even more powerful than the now-defunct gold standard which, in the old days, used to restrain how much paper money governments could print. And if youâre thinking the American people have never exercised that power, think again! THE GREAT BOND MARKET REBELLION OF 1980 The president was up for re-election, just as he is now. The economy was shaky, much as it is today. Except â¦. instead of a Republican in the White House, we had a Democrat �" Jimmy Carter. Whether Democrat or Republican, however, you would have expected him to do everything in his power to pump up the economy, make the people happy and get himself re-elected, right? Youâd think heâd do very much the same kinds of things President Bush is doing now, right? Indeed, the LAST thing youâd expect from Washington �" then or now �" is a hard right jab to the underbelly of the economy. Yet thatâs exactly what Carter gave us. He called in Fed Chairman Paul Volcker. Volcker slapped Draconian controls on virtually all forms of debt and credit created in America. They imposed stiff controls on credit cards, making it difficult for the average cash-poor American to spend a dime. They slapped controls on bank lending and business borrowing, making it hard for most companies to invest, hire, or buy raw materials. They even slapped controls on money market mutual funds, making it impossible for them to sell any more shares in existing funds. Within just a few short weeks, the economy was plunging. Gross national product nosedived. And Carterâs chances for re-election were forever doomed. Ronald Reagan became our next president. And the rest is history. âBut why,â you ask? What invisible, mysterious force could have possibly driven a Democratic president ⦠up for re-election just months away ⦠desperate to pursue his vision of the world for another four years ⦠to suddenly and deliberately sabotage an already-shaky economy? Was he possessed by aliens from outer space? Did he go bananas? Not quite. Hereâs how it happened: In 1979, the government was pumping up the economy with easy money and rampant government spending. Inflation was heating up. So, millions of people who had invested in U.S. government bonds were spooked ⦠and angry. They called their brokers. They uttered that powerful, four-letter word. And the market price of U.S. government bonds �" especially long-term bonds �" crashed. It all came to a head in February of 1980. The Soviets had invaded Afghanistan. There were rampant fears of another expensive arms race. Inflation was soaring into double digits. And the bond market crashed again. In desperation, a delegation of major New York bond dealers �" including Merrill Lynch and Salomon Brothers �" made a pilgrimage to the White House. A few hours later, a dozen powerful Wall Street men in three-piece suits sat before the president in the Oval Office. I donât know exactly what they said, but hereâs the gist: âWe have a message for you,â they declared to Carter. âThe message is from the millions of government bond investors in America and all over the world. You know �" the people who have been loaning you the money you desperately need to run this country.â âOh, really?â Carter asked solemnly. âWhat are they saying?â âTheyâre saying theyâre fed up with the governmentâs reckless spending and with the inflation thatâs destroying the value of their bonds. Theyâre saying theyâre not patsies and they wonât sit back passively when theyâre paid back with worthless dollars. Their message to you is simple: âEither you end the inflation now �" RIGHT now �" or weâre not lending you any more of our money.ââ Carter was stunned. âIs it really that bad?â âNo. Itâs worse. Now, these investors arenât just refusing to buy your new bonds. Theyâre also SELLING back the OLD bonds they bought previously ⦠dumping âem on the market in torrents. That drives their prices down and the interest rates you have to pay through the roof! Thatâs why your 30-year Treasury bond has plunged to a meager 50 cents on the dollar! Thatâs why youâre going to have to a whopping 13% interest for long-term money, over 16% for short-term money!â Carter still didnât get it. So the delegation from Wall Street explained further. âLook! Your Treasury bonds are crashing in value. No oneâs buying âem and everyoneâs selling âem. Weâre having trouble selling even a small lot of $5 million. Itâs getting so bad, bond dealers like us are getting ready to quit.â âWhy should I care?â âBecause you canât survive without us. We are the ONLY ones in the world who can sell your bonds to the public ⦠to raise the cash you need. And now WE ARE SHUTTING DOWN. Weâve lost so much money holding inventories of your Treasury bonds weâre running out of capital. We canât afford to be your dealers any more. Weâre going broke!â âBut what do you want me to do?â âYouâve got to stop the value of the dollar from falling, end the inflation �" even if that sabotages the recovery.â âBut what about the election next November?â Carter asked under his breath. âForget about next November. Unless you can convince bond investors that youâre going to end this inflation, you wonât be able to borrow the cash you need to meet government payroll next WEEK! The entire government will have to shut down �" right now.â THE NEXT BOND MARKET REBELLION Finally, Carter got the message. And thatâs when he gave Fed Chairman Volcker the green light to do whatever he needed to squash the inflation �" even if that meant squashing the economy too. Can something like this happen again? You bet it can! Fast forward two decades and three years �" to December 2003. Once again, government spending is running amuck ⦠Once again, Wall Street is beginning to worry about the consequences (remember what Moodyâs has just announced!) ⦠Once again, bond investors are getting ready to start selling ⦠And when they do, GOVERNMENT BOND PRICES WILL CRASH AGAIN! Ultimately, the president and the Fed Chairman will face the same stark choices that Carter and Volcker did in 1980: Stop the fiscal madness ⦠or ⦠shut down the government! I have no doubt they will choose the former. I am also very hopeful that it will be just the first of many steps to confront and resolve the Medicare crisis, Social Security crisis, and others that loom in the not-too-distant future. But alas, our leaders will probably not start to make the right choices until AFTER theyâre up against a major, life-threatening crisis. Thatâs the nature of the beast. They push it to the limit, and then they change their ways only under extreme duress ⦠* when inflation is already surging toward double digits ⦠* when the dollar has been beaten down to painfully low levels ⦠* when foreign investors are dumping their U.S. investments by the boatload ⦠* when sky-high interest rates are strangling the U.S. economy ⦠* And when the bond market has been beaten down so dramatically, the market mechanism itself is on the brink of shutting down. Itâs a frightening, maddening scenario. But be thankful that there is a limit to the madness. It WILL end �" and for the better. In the meantime, be sure youâre protected �" And hold onto your hat. Itâs going to be one heck of a ride. " A link that might be useful: www.moneyandmarkets.com/the-limits-of-madness-8841