The biggest turn off would be if it were obvious that he was trying to impress her. Trying too hard isn't beneficial.

As the Mother of 3 adult non-married children I'd prefer for them to fall in love with someone who wasn't encumbered by a divorce or children. However that just isn't very realistic these days. With the high number of divorces and remarriages I'd would be happy if they found someone they loved who loved them back and they were happy.

My children have dated divorced singles and one of them did have a daughter. None of them happened to work out but not because of the divorce or children.

I don't think it's an obstacle and I think his best approach is the most honest one. Tell her that he's a little rusty - actually that might endear him to her all the more.

1. Would his status as a divorced father be an obstacle?
An obstacle, yes, but not an insurmountable one. (Unless his kids are terrors or disapprove of the woman, which could turn them into terrors.) But that's not a 'first date' worry.

2. What should he do to get this gal to like him?
The usual! Be himself. Be interested in her. Be kind and respectful, but not a groveling doormat. If he sees her during the day, invite her to lunch. It's FINE if he's a little clumsy and confesses to being rusty, so long as he recovers with humor.

3. What's the biggest turn-off he should avoid?
Not being himself. Bragging. Trying so hard to impress her that he looks either insecure or phony.

I have always been a mom. I was divorced when my daughter was 5 (should have happened long before...) and remarried when she was 13. Aimee was NEVER an issue with the men I dated. Most men found my maturity and homebody nature very appealing. I cooked dinner most every night, kept my house clean and homey and held a good, steady job. I was very responsible and knew how to put others needs ahead of my own.

My advice is this: Do not include his children in a casual relationship that is in the beginning stages. It is too mind bending for the kids. If he has joint custody, this shouldn't be too hard. Kids get way too attached and then the 'new date' disappears.

I suggest he have a good handle on what went wrong in his first marriage and be prepared to discuss it honestly and openly (without ex-wife bashing).

I remember asking my DH what happened to his first marriage (childless marriage of 13 years). His answer made me fall in love with him! He said he was so busy trying to make her happy, he forgot to stop and check. Well, after almost 30 years with this man, it was all her fault, I am certain. LOL! She wasn't very stable and was a seeker of new age everything. She spent lots of money on spiritual enlightenment. Last I heard, she is still seeking and my Dh has yet to say anything bad about her.

I wouldn't think children or a divorced dad would be a deal breaker, but I'd have a few caveats.

1) What is the relationship with his ex? Is it volatile, nasty and full of he said/she said? I would run hard and fast from getting in the middle of that kind of step parenting.

2) Would he be willing to have a child with me if I wanted one? I would think this would be something a 30 something woman might be interested in and a 40ish man may not!

I can't help so much with the dating thing as I haven't been on a date since 1981. What I remember most about my DH and our initial attraction was he was very charming, made me laugh alot and was really cute. Of course we were 20, in college and drank alot of beer, so that helped! But I think those three things would still be good dating advice. Just be himself, be kind, respectful and do something fun on their date.

I do agree with Golddust that he shouldn't try to include his children in this relationship (if it becomes one!) until he knows they're fairly serious. He should be forthcoming about their existence and he can talk about them, just don't need to bring them out for introductions at this point. This is mostly for the kids sake, but I would think most women would like to make sure they really care about a man before they're willing to meet the kids etc.

I have been out of the market for about ten years, but I still remember a few things :) First, a divorced parent of any kids carry's baggage, and the older one gets the more likely that will be. He's 40, it's likely :) I was 37 when I met DH, recently divorced, not long on the dating scene, but still...I'd dated a few guys.

First tip...listen to goldie. DO NOT BRING THE KIDS INTO THE MIX and I can't stress this enough. guys seem to not get this as much as women, though we all know there are women who bring home the uncles all the time. One guy I dated...I fell in love with his kids frankly...he was a nice guy, but a a 30+ woman who'd been told she couldn't have kids....I have to say I adored his 3 kids. One was less than a year old. I knew them because he was a client before we dated, but when we did date I wouldn't go to his house when the kids were there, as much as I would have liked to, cuz dang those kids were wonderful :) They deserved me LOL

So don't play...that's a great tip for the older daters (ok 39 isn't old). I was frank about what I wnated in life, which was a deal killer for so many people, but not for the guys I actually wanted to spend time with. Don't rush the relationship, and make time for the kids before you make time to date (a woman will respect that). Ask her out to lunch, and for gads sake tell her you're rusty :) If that's a turn off, she's not the right woman for him anyhoo, because a woman who can't take a bit of fumbling isn't going to be much of a future for a man with kids.

Separate the casual dates from the future mom's and don't expect one to immediately be another. And don't rush it...I know he's been "without" for a bit...but umm find other outlets if he wishes for a real future.

And lastly, watch The Millionairs CLub and listen to Patty. The gal has a mouth on her, but every time I watch that silly club I think...geeze I'd love to have met this woman when I was dating!

Last but not least....when it's real it will be so don't try to make it real if it's lacking anything. I met DH one night at the "club" (private oil club) and told him he was a nice guy but I'd never go out with him (business rule) and did consider another guy I met that night. Turns out that DH did feel it was "real" and the other guy...well he was "hot" but later I learned, cheating on his hidden wife from russia. Be honest, be yourself, and don't try to change that....bring to the table everything he is...a dad who must care of wouldn't have any custody of his kids :) And let a wonderful woman fall for that...when it's appropriate.

First date norms.....ask age, likes, dislikes, DO NOT discuss exes!!! And any major deal killers (jewish woman, christian man...blah blah....) and let it go from there :)

> Would his status as a divorced father be an obstacle? i.e. would you date a person who's a divorced father if you have never been married before? He thinks most women would run away from divorced father because they don't want to deal w/ the extra baggage.

If you're dating 35+ year olds, many are going to have kids. Deal with it. Not sure what not having been married before has to do with anything. Kids are "extra baggage"? Many men want kids anyway.

> Since he's very rusty in term of dating (been married for 11 years 'til she called it quit), what advices would you give him in term of dating/how to impress another woman? In another word, what should he do to get this gal to like him?

Just be himself and take an interested in her life. Works for me.

> What's the biggest turn-off he should avoid?

It depends on the woman in question - it's different for everybody. That's what dating is about - discovering what each other are like and whether you hit it off. My biggest turn-off? Distrust.

Personally I do not like dinner dates. Would prefer doing something interesting that both would enjoy. It allows more freedom in conversations an seeing each other in a natural environment.

Do not go into the divorce or past unless asked the question or the conversation comes up. Keep it simple and ask questions of the other person and connect with similar interests. It is amazing how many men can go on and on about themselves as if the other person isn't even there. Then repeat the conversation again.

I married a man with 4 children, he was and always will be the love of my life.

My concern about "how to's" --and this is not targeted toward your friend at all, but just in general--is that if you have to think about how to do something too much, there may be some level of unnaturalness to it but eventually everybody is going to have to deal with the real person.

There are so many books out there written on How to date, marry a man , marry a woman, carry on a relationship (many which seem to be written by perpetually single serial daters and divorced individuals).

My gut feeling is if you don't know how, instinctually to deal with an individual you are interested in--nobody is going to be able to Tell you, because eventually, you will run out of advice and start having to be just "you". And if that is different from the person who started out playing by the 'rules' and by the advice...therein lies a problem.

I have the same conceptual problem with the programs that I teach in that now have a required ethics course. Sure, some of the material and exercises make you think about situations you may not have faced yet, and difficult choices--but a 3 credit course and some worksheets are not going to change someone's core behavior.

Pal said what I was going to say. If someone is acting the part, how long can he keep the act going? Sooner or later, the truth comes out!

I swore I'd never marry a man with kids. Turns out I fell in love with a guy who was kinda wrong for me for so many reasons, including the kids. Here's the hitch...they were already adults, just about my age in fact! (I know you're all saying "eeek" right about now.) But, we've been together twenty years and I can honestly say I feel my marriage is amazing and wonderful, almost every day.

My husband's 42 y.o. daughter is one of my closest friends and I am managing to be a pretty good grandma at age 47. I even get along quite well with his ex, who lives nearby and is still very much a part of the family. She and her husband were here for DH's big b'day party in February.

In a nutshell, tell him to be himself and the right person will eventually find him. Better to focus on being a happy person than finding ways to please the love interest of the moment. Even though it may feel like the odds are against finding Ms. Right, keeping an open mind will increase his chances.

And finally, if he has a lot of baggage, that is a huge turn-off. Get a therapist and work some of that stuff out...makes for a more attractive person and a healthier relationship, long-term.

I'd advise him to be completely honest with her.

That's what I told him. Be yourself. But I think he somewhat felt like failure after his divorce. You know, like when you pick a couple of wrong paint colors and became complete paralyze afterward, not knowing how to proceed. He lost confidence in himself. He thinks, "why any woman so perfectly brilliant would like me, who's a divorced father w/ 2 young kids".

He isn't looking for how-tos you know. (well, he didn't even know I'm posting a/b him here). He has a friend who's a serious player and who would give him "pointers" but he told me he can never pull it off, being who he is and not his friend (who's extremely suave & slick). He's not a slicker, at all.

I'm of the mind that if she cares for him, she should love him for who he is, warts and all. But of course, at this point, he just does not want to leave anything to chance, losing for some dumb mistakes you know.

I'm his friend of 20+ years and he likes to call & ask me for opinions & to see it from a woman's angle. I don't think he's looking for a how-to. When he 1st got divorced, I told him he should lose his married man's wardrobe & hairstyle and he said, "what's wrong w/ my hair- it served me well for the last 30 years) haha.. :-D Our conversations have been, "she said this, what do you think she meant?", "what should I do in this situation?", "should I call her, etc." I don't think he would do something he would be uncomfortable with (like singing under her window - though that gets the girl everytime) :-D

thanks again. I'm just so glad I'm not in the dating scene. I won't be very successful. :-)

OK - So what's a 'married man hairstyle'?

If they fall crazy in love with each other, the obstacles won't matter; but I think a 29 year old student is a bit of a stretch for a 39 year old traditional type, recently divorced father of 2.

That's just my humble opinion from what I've observed around me.

I completely agree with what Palimpsest wrote. It's crucial that he be the person that he really is - no trying to impress her by being who or what he thinks she thinks he should be.

He thinks, "why any woman so perfectly brilliant would like me, who's a divorced father w/ 2 young kids". He sounds completely smitten with this woman, but he needs to be sure he doesn't place her on a pedestal. He needs to realize that she's human and has her own "warts", and he needs to allow her to be imperfect. If he insists on seeing her as unattainably perfect, he's not being fair to her.

Biggest turnoffs? He should be sure to always be polite to service people like waiters and salesclerks. When driving he should not lose his temper and should drive carefully.

He shouldn't talk negatively about his ex-wife, at least not in the beginning. He should not do all the talking but ask questions and be interested in what his date says. He should avoid bragging.

It sounds like you have gotten some really good serious answers, but, Bellaflora's comment on the "hairstyle" reminded me of something I heard on Satellite Radio the other day. There is apparently a funny book for MEN that tell's them the big turnoffs for women and dating. A few are:

Hairy back, long nose hair, etc.
Lives at home with mom
Black jeans-no man should be wearing black jeans!

It was funny-can't even think of them all, but, you get the idea!

Okay, I'm no expert, but I'm gonna answer because at 30, I'm close to 29 and can maybe offer some perspective in that respect...

1. First, as some of the others have already said, I'd see the kids and divorce as an issue, but not a deal breaker. At 29, I'd be hoping for kids of my own at some point and would have to know that my romantic interest was open to that idea as well (not sure how serious they are or will be though, so maybe it's not an issue yet).

2. As far as being rusty, the biggest difference I notice between my parents' generation (as I've heard it, anyway) and my own is the casualness of everything - and I don't just mean sex. No one I know goes out on very many "fancy" dates. I'd tell him to keep it casual, be himself and TRY not to be nervous, because it shows. Confidence w/o arrogance is definitely sexy.

3. For me, personally, the biggest turn off would be him getting too serious too soon. But that's obviously case specific and she might WANT to be serious!

Oh, and tell him NOT to take any pointers from the player!

I asked my 19yo nephew what would he do to get a girl to like him and he said, "buy her a Prada purse. If she's Asian, make it an LV"

I asked my 20yo niece what can a boy do to get her to date him and she said, "he can start w/ a LV purse and we'll take it from there" :-D

Isn't it funny? :-)

It's been an eye-opening experience having 2 teenagers in the house. When I asked my nephew if he would drive 1.5h to see a girl and he said, "yes, if she pays me gas money and buy me dinner" haha..:-D Gallantry is good as dead!

Danielleg: thanks for the pointer a/b casual date. I thought all women would love fancy dinner date & night at the opera. I told him to take her to the Gallerie of Arts or Dumbarton Oak Garden or Kennedy center. I hope I didn't steer him wrong.

Sweeby: married-man hair means un-kempt hair with non-descriptive style and no hair product. LoL :-) I sent him a picture of this really cool hair style and he said, "I'm not going to be a mimbo-- I'll get fired by the law firm" :-D

So far I told him to:

Be yourself.
Listen to her & knows what makes her tick instead of being the center of the conversation
Bring flowers & maybe little treats that you know she likes.
Talk to her a/b things that interest her.

I think most women like to know that they have been heard. Unfortunately, most men don't know how to listen.

"Bring flowers & maybe little treats that you know she likes."

ONCE!
Once makes him look sweet and thoughtful. Any more than that before date #3 or so makes him look needy or desparate. After it's clear that she's as 'into him' as he is 'into her', then flowers and (little) goodies are great.

Speaking just for me, if a guy I was dating bought me an LV or Prada purse (and it wasn't V-day, B-day or X-mas), I'd be deeply offended and wouldn't accept it. I may be in a small minority, but to me, it implies I'm either 'for sale', or gold-digging. There are plenty of gals out there like that, but I'm not one of 'em!

I will give you an overheard at the gym male perspective on gift giving:

This guy was relating a Valentine's Day date gone south.

Apparently this woman grew to expect little gifts at almost every date, and bigger ones on special occasions. She pestered him so much about her Valentine's Day gift that he gave it to her early, and then she expected another one because "that one didn't count anymore, it wasn't a surprise."

On Valentine's Day, their reservation was for late (which was Poor Planning on his part for sure) and she complained so much that he decided to go to drive to a different restaurant where they could get in earlier, at which point she called her sister to complain that he had ruined the evening and was now taking her to "some Lameass restaurant instead of a nice one".

He drove her straight home, but not until after showing her the second gift he bought her (which was being returned) and told her the relationship was over.

I know enough women like this in the 20s-30s age group that it must be an unfortunate trend.

So yes the key thing for Him is to be himself, and if that includes a bad haircut, so be it. I would rather have someone be his 40 year old self than try to be younger. I would be a bit wary of someone who bought me too many gifts as well as someone who expected them. A little something would be nice, but only if the relationship progressed beyond the first couple dates. Its a date, not the prom.

The biggest and most problematic issue will be negotiating the sex aspect of the relationship if it comes to that. People have such varying criteria about what is the appropriate time, number of dates etc, and there is a half-generation and other levels of experience between them.

Well, if he is in the DC area, hiking along the canal to Great Falls is a fabulous afternoon or morning excursion no matter what your age. If it's an early hike, brunch is ALWAYS nice! And right now, the cherries are blooming around the Tidal Basin, so that would be a great chance for a walk through the FDR Memorial which is a wonderful spot to see across to the mass of cherry trees as well.

I was 27 when I met my now husband, who was 42 at the time. So the ages are similar. He was divorced and had a young daughter.

Honestly I realize it was naivete on my part, but his having a daughter was "neat" to me. I had no inkling of how fraught with tension etc. the whole stepchildren issue can apparently be. I'm actually glad now that I was a bit naive, because the daughter and I have, from the get go, had a wonderful relationship. One thing that in hindsight I really appreciate, (because I'm a mom myself now), is that DH waited about 6 months before even introducing the two of us. And even after the introduction, we both made sure dad and daughter had most of their together time by themselves. In other words, just because he was in love with me didn't mean she was expected to be.

Another thing I'd like to add.... when I first met DH, I was instantly attracted to his secure sense of self. All the men my age were still trying hard to prove they were the best, clawing their way up the corp. ladder, buying fancy cars and expensive clothes etc. -all trying to fit in and be the best. It was so relaxing and refreshing to be with someone who already knew who he was, and who was past all that preening stage. It is hard to describe, but I so clearly remember noticing it and commenting to friends and family. So your friend may have an advantage he isn't even aware of.

Honestly, I think the biggest thing is to get to know HER, and then do thoughtful things that hit the spot because he knows her so well. I've never been a flowers girl, for example. But if a boyfriend made me a CD of all my favorite songs, or bought me a book I had mentioned, etc. -that would go straight to my heart. The other thing I think is that women watch the way their prospective men interact with others, not just her. Do they generally and genuinely act kindly, compassionately and respectfully toward the shop clerk, the waiter, people in line, their grandmother, etc....

palimpsest, I would have dumped her too, probably long before V-day. Expects gifts on every date?

cyn427, likewise about Great Falls - somewhere I have some incredible photos that I can't find now - these will give some idea of their beauty for non-Mid-Atlantic folks but they still don't do it justice:

My fave spot may be along the Billy Goat Trail a short veer from the Angler's Inn spur, where this pic shows a rope climber. Never crowded since it's inaccessible by car, and somewhat strenuous to reach even by foot. I've cliff-jumped from this same location. Heights + freefalls + open water + breathtaking views = unmitigated ecstasy (my opinion) or absolute lunacy (everyone else's opinion), but I can't help it, i'm an incurable thrill-seeker....

...but not as much as this guy!

Hey, it's still cheaper and more fun than dating palimpsest's gym-guy's ex-gf !

Love those pictures. My older brother is a thrill seeker and when we were in HS, he would drag us to Great falls for climbing & hiking. We loved it, not! ;-D

Another great place to go to is Luray Cavern & skyline drive. I love skyline drive in the fall.

bestyears: I can't believe there's a woman out there who isn't crazy for flowers. I used to know this guy who showed up on 1st date with not 1, but 6 dozens of roses. He brought me flowers at every date. Then there's this other guy who not only brought flower for me, but also for my mom & my sister as well (I was home during Xmas when he came for the date).

Maybe I should start a thread for most memorable date LOL :-D

> I can't believe there's a woman out there who isn't crazy for flowers

I can't believe there are so many men who don't realize this!

I once gave a Valentine's Day gift to a girl in a box topped with a rose (the traditional V-day flower) and an azalea. Why an azalea? Because I overheard a conversation she had with her girlfriends talking about flowers, and she mentioned she loved azaleas - and she assumed only the ladies would be paying attention to a conversation about flowers.

When Valentine's Day arrived, she was amazed I knew what her favorite flower was. Gents, pay attention to these things!