Bumblebeez thank you so much for speaking out. You are indeed articulate and a debater. I feel the same as you and I appreciate the courage that you have shown to speak out on this board and share your faith.

You did a wonderful thing and the children are blessed because of it. That must give you great satisfaction that you used your skills to change lives.
Pro lifers are just people too and have issues like everyone else and there are bad tomatoes among us like the rest of society. But it's not what I consider my label.
(I'm sure some of you think crazy, wacko, nutty, deluded psychopath is appropriate, oh and racist)

Caregiving in all its myriad forms is difficult but it's the right thing to do. For the elderly, the handicapped, the mentally ill, unwanted children...

I have cared for my father for the last 12 years and soon will be having my mil move in with us but he's a joy to have with me and she will be too. I hope.

"...calling a spade a spade.

The origins go back centuries and have nothing to do with race but shovels and the ilk.

Eventually it was turned into a racist statement and while the origins are honest, it is an offensive statement these days."

Bumble, I'm not inclined to enter the debate raging here, but this just is incorrect. I disagree that calling a spade a spade is now racially derogatory. Not sure where you are but that's a new one for me.

It's similar to that old story about a politician calling his opponent, who was in a local theater group, a thespian. Or the brouhaha a few years ago when a politician was pilloried for referring to a niggardly response.

Let's keep our racial epithets straight here. Oops, did I just insult the GLBT community?!

BB you write: "I do think killing a baby because it would disrupt a social life is shallow. " Apparently you've never spoken with someone whose had an abortion. Purporting to be a child of Jesus, I would like to think that you have room in your belief to give women some credit. Perhaps when a woman makes that choice, she does so after heartbreaking deliberation with her own beliefs, the people in her life, and her religion, if she practices. I do not believe life begins at conception, and being a mother, I believe a life truly begins at birth. Does your religion not have a solution for those who have children with terrible genetic disorders for which there are now tests available to be administered in utero? Those tests allow parents to make a choice, one that is not so easily made I assure you.

What irritates me are people who claim to be true Christians. They are relentless in "advertising" their much closer relationship with God, and why everyone should follow their example. Similar to a secret handshake if you will. In reality, there are so many different religions, and sects within those specific denominations. If you happen to be Jewish or Muslim, and not believe exactly as you do BB, is that person any less "religious", or is that they just don't get it? There is not a one size fits all when it comes to religion especially in a Country where we are all free to worship in any way we see fit so long as it does not intrude on the freedom of another. Really, the evangelical right is intruding on my rights - the right to believe nothing if I so choose.

Back to the right to life. It is a private matter, and I don't believe it is done on the whim that you so want to believe it is. What I do think is that if you believe as you do BB, it is so much easier to villify those who exercise their right to choose. I just know there has to be a lesson in the bible that refers to judgment of others? I don't believe that having to end a pregnancy for whatever reason, is a decision that is made lightly. JMHO

Running, there seemed to be lots of people who found that statement racially offensive. So I wouldn't use it.

I know plenty of people who had abortions, Work, and everyone has their own reasons.

But I am supporting and trying to help the unborn child.

I believe a life truly begins at birth.

Tell that to all the mothers who miscarried or had a stillborn child, it wasn't a life!

I have already said I don't condemn anyone who had an abortion or is even contemplating it but would hope to show them other options. I have contemplated an abortion myself at one point in life, as I said.

Genetic birth disorders are indeed a sticky quagmire but for those who it effects there are options that don't involve abortion.

Joannie, Thanks! I sent you an email.

Bumblebeez, you believe what you believe. Why should anyone make an effort to change that? I wouldn't want others trying to convince me to alter my convictions.

What I believe is that any action can be motivated by either love...or fear. When we do something out of love, for a thing, a principle, a person, whatever, it will be appropriate in some way to our lives. When we act out of fear, it will lead to something that weakens or harms us in some way.

Abortion can be pursued from either stance. As I said on the diamond thread, when we spend money we need to act from a thoughtful, conscious place. Certainly, in a situation of such gravity, we need to inquire within about our motives. Is this an act of love, or an act of fear? It can be VERY hard to discern between the two, and we can fool ourselves. Life goes better if we do the hard work of going within, finding where our heart is, & being unflinchingly honest.

There are a number of selfish, self-serving, fear-based reasons to want to have a child. There are also many deeply loving reasons to want to have a child. There are selfish reasons to be considering abortion,and there are truly loving reasons to.

Freedom requires much responsibility.

"Perfect love casts out fear." I believe Christ set an example of walking through life with love, helping others to see that the kingdom of God with its perfect love was within them. I do not find EASY answers or prescriptions through my readings of scripture. Far from it. What the most loving course of action in one life is, would not be a loving course in another. Discerning that can be Hard Work, and that is the serious responsibility we each have in this life. To live consciously and with love is our purpose, imo.

What Stinky said.

I know several who said they voted for Obama because he is black. I also know/heard many who said they would NOT vote for a black man. Yes, you are naive if you think otherwise. It's sad but true. I guess it's no different from someone saying I'm voting for so and so because he is a Republican, rather than voting based on the candidate's views.

I do believe in a woman's right to choice, and agree organizations like PP are much needed. Not only for education on bc and pregnancy, but sexually transmitted disease, etc.

I have heard young women say if they get pregnant, they will just have an abortion, so I get what Bumble is saying. I think some look at it abortion as a form of birth control. I would like to see a world with no abortion, but I know that is naive. I do believe there are instances where it is warranted.

I think we are all entitled to our opinions/beliefs and that we should be able to express them here without others attacking. Bumble has been here a long time. It is rare to see her speak out against another poster or express a different opinion in anything but a kind manner. I think we owe her the same respect. Telling her she is scary, a "supposed" Christian, judgemental or condescending is just not right.

That said ladies, let's enjoy our weekends!

tina

Stinky you are so kind but I believe we aren't the ones who choose what is true love. God also has much to say about the unborn child even before it is formed in the womb and rescuing those led to slaughter.
He sets the standard of what love is and how I should live life.
Picking out verses that feel good takes the bible out of context.

Thanks, Tina!

Anyway, I'm not going to read this or respond to anything posted here on this thread anymore.

I don't think BB is being racist at all. I understood what she meant because my mother told me she was voting for a woman simply because she was a woman. No different than what BB was explaining about her friends voting for Obama, IMO.

I also think it's sad that BB has been called names and put down simply because she shared her religious beliefs with us.

I can guarantee you if anyone else here with a different religion would be applauded...political correctness and all.

Natal, it would be so nice if you actually contributed to a discussion for a change instead of only jumping in just to argue and put a poster down.

Thanks for hearing me, Golddust.

Once again I'm the one who's singled out ... despite the fact that many others expressed the same opinion. (yawn)

BB is entitled to her opinions as am I. As a Christian I'm fully aware that the Bible is a book written by man and wide open to interpretation.

Regarding that possible Romney vote ... you may want to reconsider.

The demonization of Planned Parenthood should have awakened the country to the radicalism of the right, and how far it has pushed the political conversation. It's been hard to measure the degree of the radicalism, so slowly and unceasingly has it crept across our consciousness and the political discourse. But it's important to remember how mainstream Planned Parenthood used to be. It was the respectable, even Republican, advocate for women's health, including reproductive services; the leaders of the National Abortion Rights Action League were the activist agitators. Sen. Prescott Bush, the father of President George H.W. Bush, served as treasurer of Planned Parenthood's first national fundraising campaign. Richard Nixon signed the family planning legislation in 1970 that authorized its federal funding.

As a congressman, George Bush and his wife, Barbara, were reliable friends of the organization. Barry Goldwater's wife, Betty, was a founding member of Arizona Planned Parenthood; President Gerald Ford's wife, Betty, was a high-profile supporter of the group. More recently, Ann Romney, wife of the 2012 GOP presidential front-runner, donated $150 to Planned Parenthood in 1994. And when a Romney relative died of a botched abortion in 1963, the family asked that memorial donations go to Planned Parenthood.

Here is a link that might be useful: Susan G. Komen's priceless gift

"I think we are all entitled to our opinions/beliefs and that we should be able to express them here without others attacking." Well said, Tina.

We speak for ourselves. We express what is true for us. We share our experiences. We also recognize that ideas that are very different than our own may speak truth to others.

Google Margaret Sanger, and Margaret Sanger quotes.

Or click on the link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Margaret Sanger

Magglepuss...its a good thing that we as a nation has learned, changed and grown. Don't you think?

Slavery was once accepted.

Heck, I remember seperate 'facilities' and water fountains for whites and blacks, segregated schools, Whites only restaurants.

Times change. Hopefully people learn and change too.

ML

Again, I would explore more deeply than just reading Diane Dew. Throughout history, you will find no one who is completely good or, for that matter, completely evil.

Sanger's mother had 18 pregnancies and 11 children. She died at age 40. The Comstock laws were in effect (look it up if you aren't familiar). Women still could not vote when Sanger opened her first birth control clinic for poor women. Contraception was deemed obscene and outlawed in many states. I think Steinem was right when she said that Sanger taught us to look at the world as if women matter (paraphrasing there).

Oakley - I'm sorry but I think you've missed the point. The comments of BB's that were taken as racist (by me too even though I didn't go there before) were not that she said that blacks voted for Obama because he is black. Of course, that happened. Just as some didn't vote for him because he is black. It was the way she talked about a black person being smart and a surgeon and seemed surprised by that. No different than if she said the same thing about a woman. I found the remark very offensive. Having said that, I am willing to believe that she did not mean it that way. As we've said before, sometimes our writing does not convey our meaning very well. But, it is understandable why it was taken that way.

Also, I need to make it clear that I was not arguing with BB's religion, or the fact that she expresses her religous beliefs. What I have a problem with is anyone trying to impose those beliefs on others.

I also have a problem with this statement:
"Shallow, but really ultimately extremely sad because they have no place of tranquility and purpose in their life."

Who are you to say they don't have purpose in their life? I do not understand that at all.

tina said: "I think some look at it abortion as a form of birth control."
I've heard people use this as a defense for making abortion illegal (tina - not implying that's what you meant, I know it's not). It is unfortunately true that there are those that feel this way. The solution is not make it illegal but to educate them on better methods of birth control.

Just re-read my post. Typo-mother died at age 49, although I have also read 50, but I think 49 is accurate. Sorry.

natal - thank you for posting the link to that article. It is terrific. I hope everyone reads it.

Bumblebeez, not sure how much you will appreciate this, as I am not a popular person on these boards, but, I do appreciate your stance, and know that many feel just like you. Thank you for speaking for us! I could not do a better job. You probably got quite a few emails, just like I did, from people giving you encouragement about an unpopular subject, not sure why they won't post on the board, but, know you are not alone.

No one should be calling you the names they have. When they do, it makes me think of how the far right Republicans act, so now you see in action the far left, and their character is just as bad.

You have been a great example of a Christian, and I have learned from you, that you didn't stoop to name calling, and downgrading you just because you have a different opinion from most on this board.

I thank GOD everynight, and I do mean, EVERYNIGHT, that my son's birthmother did not kill her baby, MY SON! He is the most amazing little boy, and to think she could have taken the convenient way out, and destroyed his little life, makes me sick to my stomach. Yes, she probably lives with the ache of placing him with someone else, but, the opposite was unfathomable to her.

I mean, life isn't suppose to be perfect. People get raped, pregnant unwantingly, birth defects, but, we are suppose to rise to the occasion and deal with it. Some people deal with unforseen illnesses and pain, do we just kill them off? I don't think so! I bet if you ask most people, even in the most dire of circumstances, they would rather be alive than dead.

"I would rather donate to a cause that is on shakier ground, and women's reproductive health is on shaky ground. There will always be new generations of women who need birth control & medical care, & education about sexually transmitted diseases. That is a situation that can't be "cured." Planned Parenthood fills that particular education & health care niche like no other organization. "

Well said Stinky!

"Why don't we agree to do what is necessary to reduce the need for abortion. Why can't everyone agree to do that? That can only be done by providing education and easy access to birth control. That will reduce (though never eliminate) the number of abortions. Like Planned Parenthood does."

What a logical position Jill -- I've heard that view expressed over and over again, but always, it seems, from people who are pro-choice. Why is that? (Rhetorical - and not intended in a snarky vein.)

"Supporting life is much more complex than just being pro-life."

SO TRUE Golddust - and very wise words. There is life for all persons involved.

"Genetic birth disorders are indeed a sticky quagmire but for those who it effects there are options that don't involve abortion."

Sure there are -- Have the baby, then either give it up for adoption or raise it yourself. (As if those are new ideas?) What if those birth defects or genetic disorders are so severe that the unborn child has virtually no chance of living more than a few painful hours or days? Or of living a life with any degree of independence? (Independent movement, self-feeding, verbal interaction.) What if medical treatments to keep the new baby alive (which will prove futile due to the disorder) will bankrupt the family and destroy the security of their other children?

The answers simply aren't that simple! Which is why every prospective mother needs to be able to make the choice that is right for her and her circumstances.

"I would like to see a world with no abortion,"

So would I! I would love to see a world where every person of reproductive age has the information and access they need to use birth control responsibly, and where that method of birth control works 100% of the time with no side effects. I would love to see the decision to become sexually active made with foresight and free from shame -- where 'planning to have sex' was viewed as the only responsible course of action, and not as 'pre-meditated sin' (which makes having birth control available 'just in case' seem morally wrong). I would love to see a world in which a pregnant woman who was not, for whatever reason, prepared to raise a child, would be able to give up her child to a loving and stable family without any 'How could she do that!?' stigma.

Every abortion is a tragedy.

Oakley and Olliesmom, I went back and reread all these posts to see where anyone called bumblebeez names. The only possible instance was when someone said that she was being racist and condescending in one of her comments. Bumble opened the door by bringing up racism in the first place (her post used that term first). Others did call her on that statement, but there was absolutely no name-calling.

In your rush to be supportive, you both accused others of something that they/we did not do. Unfortunately, that happens all too often in public discourse these days and cheapens every discussion by trying to change the focus. Almost everyone else has tried to air her own opinions and back up her arguments without stooping to that.

For the life of me (I'm old) I can't see where anyone called bumblebeez names. I see people appreciating her side and then giving their opinions.

I'm glad this thread still has a life. I was wondering if it would.

ML

I, too, have reread every post for the name calling. There was none.

It is not that anyone is more or less popular than anyone else here, but truth and accuracy are important to any discussion. We are each entitled to our own opinions, but they should be based in fact.

Thanks to cyn for a good post.

Wow I am in SHOCK. PP is fully funded by the Government. It does not need donations. It successfully kills millions of innocent females every year. Add to that the males it kills and it is single-handedly eradicating our future. A world with out PP would be a world with one less type of violence. How could that be a bad thing? I will intensify my prayers for all the souls lost, confused, duped by the violence of legal killing. You have frightened me to my core.

Oh, my. The ignorance is mind boggling.

30 seconds of googling, from http://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/planned-parenthood/:
Planned Parenthood�s 2008-2009 annual report states that it received $363.2 million in "Government Grants and Contracts." (See page 29.) That�s about one-third of its total revenues for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2009.

from http://scientopia.org/blogs/ethicsandscience/2011/04/08/federal-funding-and-planned-parenthood/
Public funds account for roughly a third of Planned Parenthood�s $1 billion annual budget. These funds come from local, state and federal sources

I gotta say, this Susan G. Komen vs. Planned Parenthood thing has really ticked me off! It is my perception (and not only mine) that the SGK organization's decision was heavily (and wrongfully) influenced by the CEO Nancy Brinker's personal politics, and for that reason, I have decided to act on my own personal politics:

Not only will I no longer contribute to the SGK foundation, I will no longer patronize the Brinker family businesses, a chain of casual dining restaurants that includes: Chili's, Macaroni Grill, and Maggiano's Little Italy.

So I'm cooking at home tonight, and anyone who feels the same is welcome to join me --

Thanks Jill! I was just getting ready to post the same thing. Amazing how people just make up this crap.

I am hoping that something good comes out of this. The article that natal posted above is very encouraging. The conversation had been moving far to the right and I for one am sick of it. This may just have been the tipping point to encourage everyone to let their voices be heard.

I am hoping that this reminds people that it is not just about pro-life vs pro-choice. We are talking about woman's health and woman's rights. The outpouring of support for Planned Parenthood's commitment to woman's (and men's) reproductive health from people, regardless of their politics, has given me hope.

Good point! Natal, that article was absolutely encouraging, and stated very well some thoughts I had been trying to articulate. The encroachment on our rights has been steady and insidious. Too many inroads have been made, and I'm glad something this concrete has happened to focus public attention on this issue.

Yeah Women!

No arcy, I am in shock that you could be so ignorant of the FACTS.

Chosen ignorance. Militant ignorance.

Natal, Jill, Sweeby, Terriks,

I am afraid this is where we just say good bye. We can't fight lies and willful ignorance. I wish everyone would note how and why this thread went downhill. It wasn't us who changed the discussion to an angry, intolerant argument. :( I wonder why we didn't see it coming. Should be used to it by now. Very very scary.

Should have included you, too, sherrmann. Sorry.

Should have included you, too, sherrmann. Sorry.

Ah, one of my favorite quotes is so appropriate...

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Thanks natal, that was a good article and articulates my feelings better than I can.

Sweeby, I'm with you! That's what is driving me crazy about the secrecy with SuperPACs. I want to boycott the businesses who are funding this dangerous misogyny, but it's hard to figure out who they are.

No facts to back this up but.....it feels like the women who are sabotaging centuries of woman's rights activism with their ignorance are in their 20's and 30's. Or older white males.

Deedee: I meant to reply to your previous post:
"Where does it stop? For those that believe life begins at conception, how will you control those who don't?

I may have read waaay to much sci-fi in my formative years, but I could see a future where all fertile women are directed to a clinic every month to be tested for pregnancy. If you test positive you are monitored until you give birth.

I'm giving myself the creeps.."

If you haven't read the Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood, I suggest it.

If legal, safe abortion is outlawed in this country, I think we will see an uprising like no other since the Civil Rights movement. As long as it happens while those of us who remember illegal, back alley abortions (been there, done that) are still alive. If it happens when there are only women who have enjoyed freedom of choice, without knowing the frightening alternative, they may just take it so for granted to not fight for keeping their rights.

They will then have to fight the fight all over again. However, there is a large underground movement of women training other women to provide safe, free abortions, should the time arise that we are denied our choice. It won't be perfect, but it will be something.

Pro choice is not pro abortion. Pro life is really anti choice. I wish we'd reclaim the correct labels. I am pro choice, which does NOT mean I am pro abortion.

I say if you are anti choice and oppose abortion, then don't have one. But keep your church and politics out of my bedroom and out of my uterus.

My comment must have been misinterpreted. I don't believe life begins at conception. I fear women will be monitored and they will have lost the right to choose if/when they want to reproduce.

Deedee, I don't think Olychick misunderstood your comment ... she was simply suggesting a book that showcases similar frightening possibilities.

Thanks natal.

Olychick, I thought you were telling me to: keep your church and politics out of my bedroom and out of my uterus."

Oy.

Abortion is being used as a main form of birth control. I don't want to tell any woman what she can do with her body but I don't want my tax dollars paying for the ruining of millions of lives not to mention the killing of millions of babies.

Why is it when someone who believes in the Christian way of life and talks of abstinence, they are laughed at and ignored? Does anyone remember that not too many years ago there was this thing called decency and the right and wrong of having sex before marriage. Why isn't PP teaching about abstinence, but instead encouraging 12 yr. olds to take birth control pills and have abortions? Why do a lot of liberals believe you cannot control your sexual urges even when you are a young teen? I was 21 and married before I had my first sexual experience. I didn't die from not having sex before than. I wasn't considered a freak either.

When I was a young woman PP was there for me also becaus back then insurance didn't pay for women's preventative health. No one teaches young girls what it means to respect their bodies. No 12, 13, 14, etc. year old is ready to have sex. It's not just the physical ramifications but the mental.

Today we don't teach anything. We just allow young people to make very bad decisions and they are the ones being hurt and ruined for life by some of their decisions. Who is raising our children? Not the parents with any morals that's for sure.

Bumblebeez I understand why you had to be specific in what you were saying to make a point. I know you are neither racist or ignorant. You didn't insult anyone on this board yet you were insulted. When someone can't make you believe what they believe they resort to name calling and character assasination.

Those of us who are Christians are the minority on this forum. That's why I usually keep my opinion to myself, but after you were attacked I felt like I had to back you up.

I find it ironic that so many of us see what happened here with our eyes wide open ... while others view it through a cloud of religious indignation. Talk about giving Christianity a bad name.

Abortion is being used as a main form of birth control

By whom? Although it is legal to have an abortion, I don't believe that it is particularly easy or inexpensive to obtain one. I can't imagine a woman thinking that she would rather have several abortions rather than use birth control.

Those of us who are Christians are the minority on this forum.

I don't think that is true at all. While I am not a Christian, I would wager that the majority of posters on this forum consider themselves Christian, as do a majority of all Americans. Fortunately our country isn't run by a Christian Taliban - at least not yet, and hopefully never.

HIWTHI - your tax dollars do not pay for abortions. Please get the facts before you speak. PP is not allowed by law to use tax dollars for abortions. They do not use tax dollars to pay for abortions. I do not know how to state it any clearer than that. Those on the far right want you to believe they do. They do not.

Nobody has laughed at or ignored BB or anyone else because she/they believe in a Christian way of life. All we have said is that those beliefs should not be imposed on anyone else.

You clearly feel your decision to not have sex before you were married was the right choice for you. I am happy for you that you made the choice that you felt was right for you. I am even happier that we live in a country where you are allowed to do that. That choice was right for you. It does not mean it is the right choice for someone else.

You say that abortion is being used as a main form of birth control. Do you have facts to back that up? Again, that is what the far right would like you to believe.

Saying that PP encourages 12 year olds to take birth control and have abortions is ludicrous. Can you provide some facts that back that up?

How do you know that most people on this forum are not Christian? I would guess that the majority of people on this forum are Christian. Have you seen the #s of posts on the decorating for xmas posts? I will agree that it is likely that most people on this forum do not impose their religous beliefs on others.

jillinnj - Saying that PP encourages 12 year olds to take birth control and have abortions is ludicrous. Can you provide some facts that back that up?

Here ya go - "If your parents are stupid enough to deny you access to birth control, and you are under 18, you can get it on your own. Call Planned Parenthood."
Planned Parenthood advertisement, Dallas Observer, Jan. 30, 1986

What Jill, AKA, Jackie 'O' said. I know. My iPhone makes me lazy. I make too many mistakes using it here but it's cold in my computer room. I need Oakley and Sue's iPad. (I bought tile for my
new monster shower today instead.)

I do want to say that I appreciate everyones point of view. I have friends from all walks of life. Live and let live and cherish the moment.

Wow. Ignorance is so so frightening.

magglepuss - that's your proof that PP "is encouraging 12 year olds to take birth control and have abortions"? Really?

I would say it's proof that PP is committed to avoiding woman having to decide to have an abortion or not. Promoting birth control to teens that are ALREADY having sex so that they do not get pregnant. And if you think if they do not have access to birth control they won't have sex, you are very wrong.

Yup, Kelly, it certainly is.

Gold - I think I love you :-)

deedee. SO sorry!!!! I only meant the part about the handmaids tale for you. The rest was for the anti choicers!!!!

Yiyiyiyiiiii!!!!