Dual Fuel Ranges: Does the Bosch 700 Series compare to the Wolf?
12 years ago
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Comparing Thermador 30" Duel Fuel Range vs. GE Monogram 30" Dual Fuel
Comments (26)"Commercial bakeries use nothing but gas ovens." This is not true. If you are talking about bulk bakeries, they are more inclined to because it is often cheaper but they also have steam injectors to add humidity when needed. I know several specialty bakeries that use electric ovens. Many deck ovens in commercial kitchens are electric. I knew of a bakery that was called "the Electric Bakery". It really depends a lot on what they are baking. I know a baker that has specialty ovens for pies. This really has nothing to do with home ovens because they are a different breed anyway as they are expected to do many different things. "Dual fuel is excessively expensive, and overly complex for no benefit in performance ." Performance is different things to different people. They have different needs so there is no one size fits all. If I were selling appliances, the first thing would be to assess that person's needs and make individualized recommendations based on those needs. I most likely would never recommend ranges to begin with unless there was a compelling reason like space or cost issues or even a preference for "looks" over cooks. Pick out each component because it meets individual needs in the best way possible. As far as cost, you can buy electric ovens with features that have high utility for less than some gas ovens with limited features. Electric ovens can be complex, but so are our home computers and cars these days. This is not necessarily a bad thing. These ovens can have features that many consider helpful in how they use their ovens. It takes a computer board to coordinate fans, heating elements and tight temperature control. I love being able to control the direction of heat and fan speed in my oven. I can have air movement slow or fast to facilitate browning or not if I am baking a cake. It has a lot greater range of temperature, with or without the fan than many ovens gas or electric that cost a lot more. There is a learning curve with these features especially with the many choices something like Gaggenau or Miele give you. The combi oven is the king of control of the cooking environment but not in a range yet. The other side of the coin is some ovens have this figured out and others, not so much, so you have to read as many reviews as you can. To minimize risk if you want these features, buy the longest service agreement that you can. They can be difficult to evaluate and compare because a feature named the same name in two different brands can mean two different things. Even the term "dual fuel", in most ovens it means gas burners and an electric oven but 5 Star when they say dual fuel means a gas oven and electric oven together in the same range. You have to decide what is a benefit and what is a burden? No one answer. "could you please explain why all gas is fine" "All gas is fine." I might agree with that statement depending on how you use your oven but that in no way means they are the same and it in many cases gas is not the best choice. Gas and electric ovens are constructed differently. Because you have combustion for your heat source, another difference, gas ovens are vented more to remove products of combustion including water, so those products of combustion and humidity from food move out of the oven and into the kitchen. That may be good or bad depending on where you live, but how is that significant to cooking? It is much more difficult to keep added steam in a gas oven if you are doing that for bread or adding a pan of water for cheesecake. Because there is more of an air current, in a gas oven, this removes more moisture from the surface of what you are cooking. This inhibits starch gelatinization during the first part of baking so inhibits rise and changes the appearance of what you are baking. On the other hand, because it evaporates moisture from the surface and allows it to heat more quickly, the Maillard and other browning chemical reactions take place more quickly. This is why meat, vegetables and even baked goods brown more quickly. Will you notice? A lot of people say they don't. I have baked in gas and electric ovens for over 50 years and I used to attribute differences in outcomes to different ovens rather than a difference in fuel but with the many books and websites that have come out on food science, you can see the rationale for the differences in outcome that cooks report in cooking/baking forums. It was kind of a "aha" moment to put these comments with the science. All of the information coming out challenges what used to be conventional wisdom and yet it might be hard to see if you are not baking the exact same recipe side by side. You do see the same observations cooks make repeatedly in terms of cooking on cooking and baking forums and people seem to notice the difference more coming from electric to gas but you do see the occasional comment about excess moisture in some electric ovens when they are coming from gas. Most advertising literature and websites about ovens actually say a gas oven provides moist heat and electric dry but they are only looking at the heat source and not the oven as a whole and the process of cooking which provides a lot of moisture to the oven chamber. Another difference is that there are more and more features being loaded into ovens now as noted above, mostly electric but sometimes gas too. Some electric ovens have added steam. Combi ovens are very useful in their ability to control humidity and really make the case for buying ovens separate from the range top instead of having to pick the priority of the burners or the oven. I am not a fan of the current trend of hiding the bake element in electric ovens. Sometimes with pies, you need that bottom element exposed. It used to be you could put a tray under the element to catch spills. If you put it on the bottom now, it will melt. Some other things to consider. gas broilers are of two types. There is the traditional gas broiler, but they are not very good. Many prostyle gas ovens have an infrared broiler. They are very hot and even, but can be small. They are great for a couple of steaks but not so much trays of appetizers or broiling larger amounts. How big is the oven? Do you want a quick preheat or need room for full commercial sheets? Look at the rack size for usable space and size top to bottom. What is the temperature range, lowest and highest? What are the increments that you can set your temperature? 25F or 5F? Ovens are not an easy choice these days but I think it helps at least some people to realize the differences so you can at least make a somewhat informed decision....See MoreAdvice Appreciated On 36” Wolf All Gas vs Kitchenaid Dual Fuel
Comments (6)bratcat, I would not feel too bad not getting a Wolf DF. Mine has been a major disappointment as it has had the chipping of the blue liner which has been an ongoing problem for Wolf for at least 10 years. It affects all of their ovens with a blue liner including the “M” which was designed to make it easier to repair with a removable bottom. The gas range does not have the blue lining. Mine happened @4.5 years old and was out of warranty. I did not get it fixed because labor starts at $800 and I have read it can run to $2500 to replace the liner. Wolf will not guarantee the new liner more than a year. Many posters here have gone through several ovens. I have a wall oven(Electrolux) so only use the range oven with covered dishes and no convection. The porcelain chips are glass shards. Posters here have been injured with them. There are lawsuits over this. http://www.wolfblueovenchipping.com/case-information/ pennfire, I would not use the self clean and wipe your range out periodically with a damp white paper towel looking for blue shards. If you have the issue, you want to find it out during the warranty. Mine happened after about the third or fourth self clean. I would love to replace mine with another DF range but am just not sold on any of them. Have you looked at any gas ranges besides Wolf? A favorite on this forum is a BlueStar. It is a little more to the commercial side than Wolf and has the star burners. It is the grandchild of the commercial Garland range that Julia Child had in her kitchen. It has been fitted out for residential use. There are two models that have star burners. One has higher BTUs. The star burners would be good for your cast iron and maybe the copper bottomed stainless depending on what it is because you have better dispersal of the heat than a ring burner. The other big difference is there is no cap on the burner which allows the flame to go straight up. The cap causes more flare of the burner on highest heat on Wolf. Wolf is not as bad as some because they have the dual stacked burners. It actually works out well for me because, I use highest heat on bigger skillets. The prostyle burners are generally bigger than regular burners. I have the exact burners that are on the Wolf gas range now. My smaller saucepans are the squat wide type and there is one small pot burner. Heavy aluminum or copper skillets, especially big ones, heat more evenly than cast iron on ring burners. Electric coils if sized to the pan provide even heat so the ring burner might be a little different. I still use my cast iron too but you have to pay attention more Cleaning the BS is a little bit different too in that the burner tray is “open”. If you are coming from electric, gas ovens are a little bit different to use. They tend to brown a little faster and better. You might notice a difference in the way things bake. My sister and I make the same cookies and here’s come out thinner and crispy in a gas oven and mine are thicker and chewier in electric. All of the ingredients are the same. You could probably adjust cooking times and temperatures to get different results but we each like them the way they are. Gas ovens have a lot bigger vents than electric ovens so if you add any steam, it is vented out much faster. A side effect of this vent is that you have more heat and moisture in your kitchen. 36” ovens take awhile to preheat. Mine takes at least 20 min to get to 350°F and the 30” wall oven takes 7 min. The BS is bigger than the Wolf. It holds a full sized baking sheet which I don’t use but I would like to be able to use two half sheets side by side. Look at the rack size and height of the top from the bottom rack to get an idea of the size of the oven....See More36 inch dual fuel range, wolf vs. cafe
Comments (15)If they still have the blue interior, I would not go with Wolf, especially with the corner fans. Wolf and their sales people always say it was just a few ovens or it was fixed long ago but several posters here have gone through several ovens. The are some threads entitled along the lines of “Are there any Wolf ovens that haven’t chipped?” There are class action lawsuits where the plaintiffs went through many ovens. The M oven was actually developed to deal with this issue with the removable bottom and the DF range was just redesigned to incorporate the elements of the M oven. Someone also posted here recently that Wolf told her they would only consider this damage cosmetic and would only fix it for the first 60 days. Yes it is probably caused by the shrinking and expanding of the metal but who designed the oven? How is this the customer misusing it? If the self clean is a misuse, they should not be marketing it as a benefit. I’ve used self clean ovens, cheap ovens haha, all my life with no issues. The condos we stay in at the beach, use the self clean every time the condos turn. Aside from that some Wolf ovens have had the chipping without using the self clean. This is why GE ditched the blue enamel. They told me when mine chipped that I must have put foil on it or done something to it. What? I could not get mine fixed. It was out of warranty at 4.5 years old and very lightly used. They would not tell me how much to fix it only that it would start at $800 and would only be guaranteed for a year. I just use it with covered dishes and no convection. The enamel is glass flakes so it isn’t good to have that flying around. I like the way the Cafe is designed but not sure about durability. I haven’t seen one I like better though. Some here like the Monogram. My range is 36” and I actually prefer an add on griddle to the built in especially being it is 36”. it leaves me the flexibility of still using the burners. I can use an aluminum overlay for great heat transfer, a nonstick aluminum or steel. The 2 burner overlay I use has about 50% more cooking area than a built in. You have a lot more heat available with two burners @15-18K each. The built in is 15K BTUs total. There are people who stir fry on these. I have picked up what I am cooking on the griddle and put it in the oven griddle and all. The bare aluminum will season over time. I am adding a nonstick though when we get back to having people over. This disadvantage to an add on would be that with a built in you can turn it to a certain setting and always get a repeatable temperature. I have a 15”x23” like this. They are a heavy thickness of aluminum. The steel weighs a lot more and the heat transfer properties aren’t as good making more of a zoned heat surface. http://royalindustriesinc.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_22_48 These are the steel overlays. They have a 4 burner but I looked at it at a restaurant supply and I couldn’t lift it! https://www.dvorsons.com/ChefKing/Griddles.htm...See More30" Induction Range: Bertazzoni, Bosch, GE, Fulgor, Miele, Wolf, etc.
Comments (61)Since folks occasionally come across this thread, perhaps it's time for a 2023 update. Bosch Bosch has released a new "Pro" model in their 800 series line. The 800 Series Induction freestanding range (model number HIS8055U has front control knobs, but a rather small oven at 3.9 CuFt. While it does check my boxes for individual burner controls, preferably knobs, there's a few things to note: Oven size is rather small No bridge burner While Bosch themselves don't list out the wattage of each burner, it is a 40A circuit, so it may be a little less power than the Miele, Wolf or Fulgor Milano And this is a rumor and something I heard on a few appliance review videos, but unable to confirm: This product is the Smeg cooktop. If so, the burner power would be two burners at 3,000 W and two at 1,400 W. Which is indeed quite a bit less than the other top choices I had listed in the original post So overall it may look great, has front control knobs for each individual burner, but it may not have the power and/or reliability of the Bosch Benchmark slide-in induction range. Thermador They have been known for their "Freedom Induction Cooktop", especially in the 36" version. There are no truly dedicated burners, but a large "flex zone" on both the left and right side that are each powered by two separate inductors. You can use each zone as two individual burners or as one large cooking zone. You can slide pots and pans around over the entire zone and with several different programming options, it will remember your setting and transfer it to wherever you move the pan. Or you can set it to be in incrementally lower power settings front to back. So it can be on 9 at the front, 7 in the middle, 5 further back, etc.... Sear and just slide it back to lower the power setting. Extremely high tech and super impressive. So now Thermador has released this in a 30" induction range. The Thermador Liberty® Induction Professional Range 30'' Pro Harmony® (that's a mouthful) with model number PRI30LBHU is a sleek looking cooking range, with an impressively capable induction cooktop. What stood out to me: The Liberty or Freedom cooktop is phenomenally flexible, powerful and high tech. A little overwhelmingly high-tech even However, in a 30" range, it seems a little small. While the entire glass cooktop is 22 1/2" deep, a large section in the front is taken up by the controls. Based on some initial measurements, that means the flex zone cooking surface is only about 15 1/2" to 16" deep. I have to find one in person to confirm that, but based on images and scale, that's it came out to. Sounds awfully small to me And, for me, the biggest sticking point is the lack of individual burner control. On the 36" version there is a very sleek looking control panel that is very intuitive with a slider control. On the 30" version, it looks very much like the Bosch controls and hence not my personal favorite. But it may work for you All that being said, it's probably been the most exciting release in the 30" induction range world for the last year. The images attached are the size of the Thermador cooktop and the comparison the controls of the 30" Liberty range vs the 36" Freedom cooktop Other updates Dacor Has completely abandoned and discontinued the 30" induction range Fisher & Paykel Someone did point out that DCS sold the household appliance brand F&P to Haier. Which is a Chinese conglomerate that owns GE Appliances, Hoover, Hotpoint, Sanyo and a few other brands. I have not necessarily heard anything bad about F&P and know several folks have purchased F&P 9 series Classic models since they come in different colors to match your desired interior Fulgor Milano They seem to be more prevalent now than they were when I wrote the original article. And many people are quite impressed and happy with the quality. One re-occurring comment I see is that the oven seems to indicate that the preheat is complete, while the temperature is not fully distributed throughout the oven cavity yet. Especially in simple bake mode. The workaround seems to be to preheat with a convection mode to ensure the entire oven cavity is heated through and then switch back to the preferred baking mode. A bit of a workaround, but it that's the only complaint, I think it remains a strong top contender GE Cafe and Profile No major updates Miele Likewise no significant updates. The induction range is still on version 3 and remains equally impressive as it was when I posted the original article. Wolf Only has released a style update with a different oven door handle. Wait times seem to have gone down, but no feature or other technical updates As far as I know those are the updates I was able to find, so I hope this helps those continuing to shop around...See More- 12 years ago
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