apple yeast water or any of the other fruit yeast waters completely cancel out all sour...that is why a lot of folks like it. In addition you do have a different crumb structure and crust when using the yeast water. The way to get the "sour" that you like ...more or less is the fermentation process, the kinds of flour you use, the amount of starter and whether you leave the starter on the counter or keep in the fridge and how many feedings you do before use...you can see that it is all a science. My breads are not all that sour as a usual thing since DH doesn't care for too sour. If you go to the links I have put in this thread and the one ann started you will see a lot of info on The Fresh Loaf. You also can google less sour sourdough and get a lot of info. It would be a great idea to do some reading before you begin. It is a lot of fun to also just begin and see where it leads you. The link to Debra Wink and her method of getting a starter going is a great place to start. Let me know if I can help in some way. c

Sue- Is it the wisdom of the ages or science from the experts? This is what I've read from "experts" - I'm just the person sitting behind the keyboard typing after I've gathered a stack of books by my side. According to Shirley Corriher in "Cookwise", salt plays three roles in dough: It enhances flavor, controls bacteria, and strengthens dough by tightening gluten. She even suggests if the water you are using in your breads is soft (low mineral content), you'll want to be sure to add high-mineral salt - which are natural sea salts, not table salt. The minerals in natural sea salt also play into yeast activity. But what is too much salt... As little as 1/3 t. of salt per cup of flour can be enough to noticeably slow yeast growth. Salt can be added intentionally to slow yeast growth. More salt may be added to dough, such as in a bakery setting when you would want to slow down fermentation until the next shift of workers comes on. The small amount of salt we add to yeast and naturally-leavened breads doesn't really give a salty taste, nor does it contribute largely to the daily sodium intake in a normal diet or normal sodium amounts for people who aren't watching sodium intake, but salt helps to bring out the flavor of the fermentation. As anyone who has ever left the salt out of a recipe can attest, bread without salt is somewhat insipid - but that's because our taste is often trained to like salt and salty flavors. Then there's all the hub-bub about when to add salt. I wait to add salt towards the end of the kneading, along with the fat. I only add the fat early if I want a close crumb - or an almost cake-like texture (for sandwich bread as an example - breads that need to hold together when held in your hands and keep spreads from dripping through). The gluten will have an easier time developing, and will develop quicker (meaning you will need to spend less time mixing and kneading) when you wait to add the salt after gluten development. Once you add the salt, the gluten really tightens up. You can actually feel the difference in the dough. Peter Barham in "The Science of Cooking" says "...the salt acts to modify and control the action of the yeast. Harold McGee in "Keys to Good Cooking A Guide to Making the Best of Foods and Recipes" and "On Food and Cooking": Salt contributes to a balanced taste and intensifies aroma in bread, but it also affects structure and texture. Salt makes a dough less sticky, and gluten more stretchy, and the finished loaf lighter. In sourdoughs, salt helps control the growth of acid-producing, gluten-weakening bacteria. [So there's that bacteria mentioned by Shirley Corriher as well.] Salt isn't a leavening agent, but it helps control the leavening agent, as you thought. You can make perfectly good bread with very little or no salt at all (other than the naturally occurring salts in water, other ingredients, etc. - there is always a source for some sodium, even without added salt). But as one book pointed out, when it came to taste tests, people liked breads with more salt than less salt. As a person who doesn't use a lot of salt in their diet, I'd choose less salty flavor - so flavor is subjective. When using less salt in breads, you just need to watch the rise because it will be faster than normal. Peter Barham, in his book, intentionally made bread with lower salt amounts to see how little it could actually be, and he came to the conclusion you didn't need salt at all and that the bread tasted fine. "Fine" isn't what most people expect homemade bread to taste like, however. So you can use a long cold rise to develop flavors, instead of adding salt, or as much salt. And there is the old rule of thumb... If you reduce the salt in a bread recipe, be sure to reduce the yeast as well. So if you cut the salt by 50%, reduce the yeast by 50%. I was also taught in cooking and baking classes that a little salt makes sweet things taste sweeter, hence the ever-present "pinch of salt" in things you wonder what difference did that small amount actually make? There are a lot of factors to keeping bread fresh. Choose enriched breads and sourdough, instead of lean doughs. If you want your bread to stay fresh longer add fenugreek or rosemary because these ingredients are antioxidants, "they prevent oxygen in the air from combining with compounds in the dough, thus acting as a preservative by preventing chemical changes in the dough." I add an acid ingredient to whole wheat breads in the form of ascorbic acid, which is another antioxidant you can add to aid keeping bread fresher longer, but also counteracts the effects of Glutathione in wheat germ, which can damage the gluten strands. Yeast also works better in a mildly acidic mixture. But don't add an acid to naturally-leavened breads because they are already acid enough. My personal favorites for keeping bread fresher longer are coconut oil, agave nectar, and chia seeds - and you won't find these ingredients discussed in any books by "experts". Coconut oil was used in commercial baked goods until the mid-20th century because it helped lengthen shelf-life. As a medium-chain fat, coconut oil doesn't go rancid as quickly as polyunsaturated oils. When pressure was put on the market to use hydrogenated fats and polyunsaturated fats, the shelf-life was shortened, foods went rancid quickly, and they had to find new stabilizers and chemicals to use instead of coconut oil. Coconut oil was used for popping corn at the movies and sports stadiums. They popped large amounts long before it was needed and packed into containers to be used later, and using coconut oil in it kept it fresher longer. Nobody likes stale popcorn.... Coconut oil aids in slowing down mold growth as well. Agave nectar does an excellent job of holding moisture in baked goods, as does chia seeds. Both keep moisture in the crumb of breads from migrating through the crust, so they slow staling - which is an interesting read in and of itself. If you are going to freeze your bread, there is a lot of science about using honey in your breads instead of sugar. The honey will aid in keeping the moisture in the crumb, and I suspect agave nectar has a similar quality. Hope the experts have given you the answers you were looking for. -Grainlady

I had heard about the NY Times bread recipe when it came out a few years ago, so googled it and found the following: Recipe: No-Knead Bread 3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting teaspoon instant yeast 1¼ teaspoons salt Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed. 1. In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt. Add 1 5/8 cups water, and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably about 18, at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees. 2. Dough is ready when its surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes. 3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more flour, bran or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise for about 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger. 4. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under towel and turn dough over into pot, seam side up; it may look like a mess, but that is O.K. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack. Yield: One 1½-pound loaf. From: Newsvine.com, here is a review, by someone, of this recipe: I pretty much followed the instructions to a "T" with some very minor adjustments stemming from comments that I read in other reviews. Friday Night, 7:00 PM: Mixed together bread flour, yeast (Fleischman's rapid rise), salt and water in a non-reactive bowl, covered with plastic wrap and placed the whole kit n' kaboodle in the oven, leaving it there overnight and through the next morning. Saturday Afternoon, 1:30 PM: Heavily dusted my work surface with flour, poured the dough onto the surface, heavily dusted the top of the dough with flour, and following Alton Brown's instructions for "punching down" dough, performed the wallet folding pattern three times. I let that rest covered with plastic wrap for fifteen minutes. Saturday Afternoon, 1:46PM: I rolled the dough into a "ball", and placed it on a sheet of heavily dusted parchment paper instead of a towel, and let it rise for 2 hours. *Note: the dough didn't really hold a ball shape, but rather looked more like an in-the-dough reincarnation of Jabba-the-Hut. Translated: it was little more than an amorphous blob, which I covered with a towel, nevertheless. I set the timer for two hours, over the course of which the dough spread moreso than rose. Saturday Afternoon, 3:16 PM: I placed my 5.5 qt. Le Creuset enamel coated cast iron Dutch Oven in the oven and preheated both to 450-degrees. Saturday Afternoon, 3:46 PM: When the timer went off signaling the expiration of the two hours, I carefully removed the very hot Dutch Oven and placed it on the counter. I dumped the dough blob from the parchment paper into the Dutch Oven and wearing oven mitts, covered the pot with aluminum foil, since the metal replacement knob that I ordered to replace the plastic one that came on the dutch oven lid -- and is only rated to 375 degrees -- had not yet arrived in the mail. My preference here would have been to use the lid that came with the pot. I baked the bread, covered (with foil) for 30 minutes, removed the foil and baked for anther 20. I then removed the pot from the oven and dumped the bread onto a wire rack where I let it cool for one hour before slicing. The bread turned out great, very crusty, very artisan. I will definitely make it again. The main thing is to remember to start it the night before, else there will not be enough time to develop the glutens and more complex flavors as fully as necessary to make for a great loaf of bread and still get the bread baked at a decent hour. The recipe can be found here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/dining/081mrex.html

For what it's worth, I've had really good luck with the American Loaf recipes from Cook's Illustrated, French-Style Country Bread recipe from King Arthurs Flour, and Alton Brown's Basic Bread recipe. I've used all those recipes with either no salt altogether or reducing the salt content by at least 50%. The American Loaf recipes have a bit of sweetener, so the salt flavor is not missed. The Country Bread & Alton Brown's bread use a sponge or pre-ferment that adds a tang that compensates for the missing salt flavor.