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Opinions on whole wheat pastry flour?

18 years ago

I'm trying to incorporate more whole grains into our baked goods so I'm going to order some whole wheat pastry flour since I can't find it here in my small town. The two I've looked at are Bob's Red Mill and King Arthur. The King Arthur is almost twice the price and I'm wondering if there is really much difference in the products. Opinions welcome! Thanks.

Tracey

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Comments (14)

centralcacyclist
18 years ago
I've used both. Right now I have some Bob's Red Mill. I don't see much difference.
rosecmd
18 years ago
I use whole wheat pastry flour all the time...either brand is fine. I usually use 12/ white & 1/2 who. wheat pastry flour in all my baked goods. No one can tell.
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I'd suggest you substitute low-glycemic agave nectar for sugar in baked goods if you are a diabetic (it is an appropriate sugar substitute for most diabetics - but you should check with your health care professional or nutritionists). It has the benefit of acting/performing like "sugar" in baked goods (including browning, tenderizing baked goods, and feeding yeast in breads), unlike chemical sweeteners (like Splenda), and you get a better end product. It's much sweeter than sugar and you can use much less. For things that require 1-cup of sugar, I usually use half that amount of agave nectar (or no more than 3/4 of a cup agave nectar for 1-cup of sugar - for people with a really "sweet" tooth). I sweeten a quart of homemade ice cream with only 1/4 c. of (low-glycemic) agave nectar. I mill soft white wheat for flour for baked goods that require less gluten (such as brownies, quick breads, etc) or spelt (also less gluten). Less gluten and gluten development will keep the texture more tender. Fat AND sugar are also tenderizers. Eliminate either of those and you have to find other ingredients that will work as tenderizers (baking science 101). The bran in whole grain flours absorb a lot of moisture, as well as the gluten in flour, and white whole wheat flour is generally higher in gluten than all-purpose. Therefore you may need to adjust the flour amount down a bit, or increase the liquid to compensate for bran and gluten. -Grainlady
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Whole wheat flour, technically, is flour milled from the whole grain, and nothing more. It can be milled from hard or soft grain, spring or winter grain, red or white varieties, or even durum wheat (which is used for making pasta). Although it's generally understood "whole wheat" flour is flour with enough gluten in it for yeast breads. Pastry flour, as already posted by lpinkmountain is milled from soft wheat varieties - which is lower in gluten and best used for baked goods where you don't want a lot of gluten development - cakes, pastry, cookies, quick breads, etc. When you mill your own flour it's important to understand these grains and their baking characteristics. In storage I keep: -hard red winter and hard white winter wheat varieties -hard red spring and hard white spring wheat -soft white wheat -durum wheat (used for pasta) -triticale (a hybrid of rye and durum wheat) To make "cake" flour, which is lower in gluten than pastry flour, I use a 3:1 mixture of soft white wheat and either oats or spelt. The low-gluten flour is great for delicate cakes like Chiffon or Angel Food. Winter/Spring - indicates the growing season of wheat. In the mid- and southern States that grow wheat, it's planted in the fall, grows about 8-10-inches and winters-over. The plants go dormant during the winter, breaks dormancy late Feb., and matures during the summer and is harvested in June/July/August, starting in the southern States and traveling north. Spring wheat is grown in the northern States and southern Canada. It is planted in the spring and harvested late summer/early fall. Winter wheat generally is a smaller seed than spring wheat. Hard winter wheat mills into a slightly stronger flour, containing more glutenins than spring wheat because of the longer growing season than spring wheat. But those smaller grains of hard winter wheat contain more bran after it's milled, while spring wheat has more of the starchy endosperm. Hard/Soft - These are primarily terms of interest to millers to describe the texture of the endosperm and how it breaks down in milling, but are also related to bread-making strength. Hard for higher gluten levels, soft for lower gluten levels. If you forget which variety of wheat you milled into flour, all you have to do is rub it between your fingers to know. Hard wheat varieties are slightly gritty, while soft wheat is soft like talcum powder. Red/White - Bran color. Red and white wheat have the same plant traits and nutrition, but the bran color is different. Red wheat has 3 genes that determines the bran color. Early varieties, such as Turkey Red, had 3 genes that made the bran very dark, the flour very dark, and the taste was very acidic. Most of today's varieties of red wheat only have one or two of these genes for less color and a less acidic flavor. Think of white wheat as the albino of wheat varieties. It has no genes for bran color so it's light in color and the taste is mild and almost sweet-tasting. Durum is a different variety that has the highest amount of protein, but the dominant of the protein group in durum wheat is the gliadin protein, rather than the glutenin. Therefore it's best used for pasta because of it's strength and viscosity. -Grainlady
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King Arthur whole wheat flour is higher in gluten and appropriate for yeast breads because of that. If you use it for making quick breads, cookies, pastry, etc. make sure you keep mixing to a bare minimum or you'll develop too much gluten and get a tough baked good. If you use it for pastry, add a little more fat to help coat the flour and shorten the gluten. Whole wheat PASTRY flour, milled from soft wheat varieties, is your best choice for whole wheat pastry. King Arthur whole wheat flour is milled from high-gluten hard wheat varieties and therefore not really the appropriate flour to use. Whole Wheat Pastry Flour is also a better choice for biscuits and cake. I'd never use King Arthur Whole Wheat Flour for cakes. You'll end up with a tough crumb. I mill my own whole grain flours, so I can choose the correct type of grain for each use. If you make quick breads, including muffins, using this flour, stir it in by hand rather than with an electric mixer to avoid developing too much gluten. King Arthur Whole Wheat flour will make wholegrain noodles or pasta, but once again, it's not the correct choice. Pasta and noodles are best made with flour milled from Durum Wheat, not hard wheat. -Grainlady WHEAT AND SESAME TORTILLAS (source: "Natural Meals in Minutes" by Rita Bingham) 2 c. whole wheat flour (you may also use 1/2 ww and 1/2 all-purpose) 3 T. dry milk powder 1/3 c. sesame seeds extra flour for board 2 T. butter or applesauce (I use coconut oil) 1/2 t. salt 2 T. yogurt (I use kefir) 1/2 c. lukewarm water Combine dry ingredients. Use hand or electric beaters to cut in butter or applesauce until mixture resembles fine crumbs (I used a pastry cutter). Slowly pour in water and yogurt, mixing lightly with a fork. On a floured board, knead dough until smooth and elastic, about 5 minutes. Shape into a ball, cover and let stand for 10 minutes (I covered it with a damp towel). Divide and shape dough into 8 balls (I make at least 16 tortillas out of this dough). Remove one ball at a time and roll paper thin on floured board. Place on heavy, hot, ungreased skillet, over medium-high heat. Blisters should appear right away. Brown on one side and turn. Cook about 30 seconds. Makes eight 9-inch tortillas. ------------------- WHOLE WHEAT SUGAR COOKIES http://kansaswheat.org/general.asp?id=470 Found at the Kansas Wheat Commission Web site along with many other recipes using whole wheat. See link below. We love these cookies... 2 cups whole wheat flour 1 teaspoon baking powder 1/2 teaspoon baking soda 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/2 teaspoon ground nutmeg 1/2 cup butter or margarine 1 cup granulated sugar 1 egg 1 tablespoon grated orange peel 1 teaspoon vanilla extract 2 tablespoons low-fat milk topping 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon 2 tablespoons granulated sugar 1 In small bowl, stir together whole wheat flour, baking powder, baking soda, salt and nutmeg. Set aside. 2 In a large mixing bowl, beat butter or margarine with an electric mixer on medium to high speed for 1 minute. Add the granulated sugar; beat mixture until combined. Stir in egg, orange peel and vanilla; beat mixture until well combined. 3 Stir in the flour mixture and milk just until combined. 4 Shape into 1-inch balls and place on ungreased cookie sheet 2 inches apart. Flatten slightly with bottom of a glass dipped in topping mixture. 5 Bake cookies in a preheated 375F oven 8 to 10 minutes or until golden brown. Transfer cookies to a wire rack to cool. nutrition information per serving (one cookie): 74 cal, 3 g fat, 13 mg chol, 59 mg sodium, 12 g carbo, 1 g fiber, 1 g pro, 1 mcg folate.
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Comments (7)
Yes, white whole wheat flour can be used for cookies. And yes, there is hard and soft white wheat as plllog explained. There are also spring hard/soft white or red wheat and winter hard/soft white or red wheat to get even more complicated than things really need to be. And don't forget durum wheat (the type of wheat best used for pasta/noodles) and all the ancient varieties. Before going gluten free, I used a large number of wheat varieties: durum, hard spring white, hard winter white, soft spring white, hard winter red, hard spring red, triticale (a hybrid of wheat and rye), as well as spelt, kamut, and einkorn (ancient varieties). I saved soft white wheat (because it was so expensive -purchased from Bob's Red Mill) for some (not all) quick breads, biscuits, and pastry, as well as for cakes (especially delicate chiffon and angel food cake). I would use a 3:1 mix of soft white wheat and spelt OR oat groats (milling flour myself) for a low-protein flour similar in protein to cake flour. I also milled rye, barley, sorghum, and many other grains/seeds/beans for flour. I milled the mixture of grains into a very fine flour and made sure to sift it (removing any large pieces of bran) before using it for cake. Since you may not have any soft white wheat flour available for your cookies, just make sure when making cookies (or anything leavened with chemical leavening - soda, baking powder) NOT to over-mix them or you will develop too much gluten and will get tough cookies or baked goods using regular (hard) white whole wheat flour. This is yet another time I suggest using a Danish Dough Whisk (or a wooden spoon) instead of a stand or regular mixer. Keep mixing to a minimum once the flour has been added. If you use white whole wheat flour in a recipe that is designed for bleached or unbleached all-purpose flour, you may find you need to add a little more hydration, OR reduce the amount of whole wheat flour by 1-tablespoon from each cup of flour called for in the recipe, and adjust accordingly, if needed. If you can find recipes that specifically call for whole wheat flour you will find you have better results until you get accustomed to using it. Check your public library for wholegrain cookbooks. The recipe at the link below from the Kansas Wheat Commission is one of my favorites using 100% whole wheat flour :-). This recipe will work with either white or red whole wheat flour, but white whole wheat works best due to the flavor differences. If you want to kick it up a notch, add 1/8-1/4 t. of Fiori di Sicilia (an all-natural citrus and vanilla scented flavoring from King Arthur Flour - but caution, a little goes a long way). You may want to take a look at their recipe collection for a lot of great recipes using whole wheat flour. I've collected the Kansas Wheat Commission Recipe Books for years (free when you attend the Kansas State Fair in Hutchinson, KS) and have them going back several decades. -Grainlady Here is a link that might be useful: Whole Wheat Sugar Cookies
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Terri_PacNW
18 years ago
I was using White Whole Wheat flour as atleast half of an AP sub. Look for it and compare..might be a bit cheaper. It's KA that is in my area for sale.
I don't eat wheat based flour products now..but I still bake with them occasionally for my family.
Tracey_OH
Original Author
18 years ago
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll probably end up ordering the Bob's since it's so much cheaper. Terri, I always keep the white wheat on hand, but I wasn't sure if it would work in cakes, etc...

Tracey
Terri_PacNW
18 years ago
I used it in breads, cakes and cookies. I found it to be "lighter" than regular unbleached AP..so the bread doughs and cookie batters were sometimes a bit "wetter"..so I'd a few more T of the WWW.
supercooker28
18 years ago
hey tracy_oh, if you ever find somewhere to buy spelt flour, it is fantastic for baked goods and pastries.

Its a lot sweeter and lighter then whole wheat and is apparently more nutritious.

Here is a link that might be useful: Healthy Choice Recipes
daryl
18 years ago
I agree on the spelt--you can use whole spelt flour in most any recipe calling for white flour. Just remember that the gluten is very tender in spelt flour--so if you make yeast doughs with it, treat them gently and don't knead as long as for bread flour. (Whole wheat pastry flour has little gluten as well.) Spelt flour doesn't need as much liquid--so either increase the flour a bit or decrease the liquid to get a good product. Blessings, Daryl
grainlady_ks
18 years ago
Whole wheat pastry flour has less gluten than regular whole wheat flour and it is milled from soft wheat varieties.

When I mill w/w pastry flour I use SOFT white wheat, rather than hard wheat varieties. Pastry making is all about reducing the gluten, so that's why soft wheat varieties (low-gluten) are used for pastry flour. It also works well for quick breads, another place you want less gluten-development.

All-purpose flour is a combination of hard and soft wheat varieties and has a higher gluten-level than pastry flour. Bread flour (even more gluten) is milled from hard wheat varieties.

I agree with using spelt for pastry. There is 5,000 parts per million (gluten) in spelt, compared to wheat which begins at 50,000 parts per milion and goes up from there.

All these flours are best when you mill your own and enjoy all the nutrition available and the best flavor.

-Grainlady
Tracey_OH
Original Author
18 years ago
Again, thank you for all the information! I will probably add spelt flour to my list of items to try. I do a lot of baking for my munchkins and I'd like it to be healthy so this is great info for me.

Tracey
msafirstein
18 years ago
Grainlady, thanks so much for the info on pastry flours.

I doubt it if you know this but I have an entire file on information just from you. In fact the file is labeled "Grainlady". And I refer to it all the time.

Michelle
grainlady_ks
18 years ago
Michelle (msafirstein) - I'm flattered and happy I could be of help! I'm a complete information "freak" with an insatiable need to know...I love cooking/baking science. I get most of the information I post from my piles-of-files I've accumulated over the years and books (LOTS of books).

-Grainlady
hawk307
18 years ago
Grainlady : By Jove! you've done it again. BTW, I saw the Joke !
I have to give you a A+ here. On a scale from 1 to 10, I'd say a 12.

Question , I haven't found any difference btw. Gold Medal AP, and KA AP.
Except , the price was double.
I saw Gold Medal on sale for 80 cents. It was double that for 1 1/2 years.
Soooooo I bought 5, 5lb. bags.
What is your opinion on the two flours.

Michele:
You don't have a big enough file!

You have a big enough home.Beautiful !!! You thought I wasn't watching.
I was, but I'm jealous, because I don't do much of that anymore.
I missed a lot of the building you were doing.

Lou
grainlady_ks
18 years ago
Lou (hawk307) -

I live in Kansas - wheat country - and prefer flour from Kansas mills or mill my own. I find Hudson Cream Unbleached All-Purpose Flour (milled in Stafford Co., KS) one of the best, although I rarely use it now.

KA/AP (13g protein) is unbleached. Being unbleached would put it in a better position than bleached National Brands (Gold Medal and Pillsbury 12+g protein) in my books. The information about protein levels is from CookWise by Shirley O. Corriher. The only use I've found for bleached flour is sprinkled in my garden to kill bugs.

I wasn't all that impressed with KA/AP when I tried it years ago - mostly the price. Much of KA flour is milled in Kansas (in Topeka I believe). All their white whole wheat flour is milled in KS - I read a Kansas State University press release about that. It took until the last few years for them to buy shelf space in the grocery stores around here. We had lots of other excellent choices when it came to flour before high-priced KA.

-Grainlady
hawk307
18 years ago
Grainlady.I'm missing something here, because I get the same results,
with the Challah type Braided Bread and Cinnamon Bunns.

What is the unbleached flour supposed to do, that is better?
Is the Kansas AP flour, available on the East Coast?
LOU

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