Marion,

Have you looked at DCS. As a former owner, I really liked it. Much better than my current Wolf.

Go for the BlueStar - any competent technician can service them. Basically you're buying a "big old box of fire" - Mechanical controls, easy to maintain, good finish.

Wasn't that what the AG Wolf was supposed to be???? Sorry, couldn't resist....

Think I will go that way - just need to convince myself that there is a service/support network here in Canada so that if I run into the same kinds of issues with the Bluestar as with the Wolf I have some support.

Phillycook - sounds like you have a Bluestar - any issues (beyond the igniter problems that I have read about)?

Marion K.

Bluestar took over the Garland residential division when Garland decided to leave the home market and concentrate on their bread-and-butter commercial market. "New" is a relative word, since the design itself has been around for decades and it is designed to be simple for the homeowner to service when necessary.

The one real strike against them is that it is not as well finished and "glamorous" as the Wolf, or even the Capital. There have been some folks who had problems, either shipment damage or ignitors, but BS has gotten high marks from most owners for good customer svc. OTOH, so has Wolf before this last issue of incomplete ignition on the 2007 AGs came up!

Certainly not a Thermador! Did you notice the new posting today from a new Thermador owner with partial ignition on a couple of burners? Didn't say whether this was with or without over on or on high or low flame. Small world. Hope whatever you choose doesn't catch this plague that seems to be going around.

Exactly why we are sticking with the Wolf for the time being (replacement coming next week)--it seems there is no guarantee that any or all other brands won't have some sort of igniter or burner issues. BS's igniter problems have been detailed on this forum, Viking has been bandied about as an "avoid at all costs" manufacturer, Wolf had a great rep, 'til we got ours......very sad.

We really like our AG DCS range, but it has sealed burners.

The one thing I'll add about the burner issues re: Wolf and Bluestar, is that it seems that when there's an ignitor issue with the BS it's immediately identified as a problem and the ignitor is replaced. The situation with the Wolf was far more elusive, and thus far, impossible to fix. I've ordered the BS after moving on from the Wolf. I get that it may have some problems down the road (as every product will) but it would appear that these problems at least CAN be fixed, which is more than can be said for the Wolf.

I know people love to bash Viking - but after much research & seeing it in operation at the appliance store and then at the distributor side by side against the competition
36" AG open burner - LOVE IT

I've had my BlueStar for about 8 weeks.

One of the 22K burners was giving me problems with the ignitor sparking when the control was turned to extreme low. Took the burner out, unscrewed the ignitor, repositioned it and haven't had any trouble since.

I've also figured out that it is possible to move the burner stars around to custom configure the range top with a phillips screwdriver.

As to the "Finish" issue - Depends whether you want a tool or a piece of dor. I scorched the backsplash on the BlueStar the first weekend I had it and scratched the front panel as well. I'm cooking on it, not looking at it.

I've had a Bluestar for a year and a half. In my opinion, it is far, far superior to a Viking. If you want an open burner,I wouldn't consider anything else. The problems as noted, have been minor and well identified.. That is, occasionally a cracked ignitor(sometimes from shipping) and occasionally a faulty ignitor module- both easy to replace, and both items sourced out (not made by bluestar). The people who cook, love their Bluestars because there simply is nothing better. If you want a sealed burner, then I would, from what I've seen, recommend an American or Capital, they are very nice, in fit and finish, with good ovens, but I really believe the Bluestar has the best burners on top.

I agree with alexr. The reason I didn't go with Viking is not because of its repuation - let's face it; all these "high end" appliances" are faultier than their far less expensive counterparts - but because I don't like the burners. Yes, they're open, but there's still that huge centrepiece where no heat goes. I really do like the idea (having yet to cook on one) of the BS burners better, therefore I ordered it. FWIW, when I went to check out the BS a few weeks ago, I took the whole thing apart. It is, in essence, as simple as a gas grill barbecue. I used to think the whole "it's so simple to work on" thing was a bit of boosterism, but having watched people screw around with the Wolf for 5 months, it's true. It's very straightforward and having been through the ringer with the Wolf I'm much more confident of being able to identify / deal with potential problems than I was back in the summer when I was intimidated by the DIY aspect of the Blue Star.

happy holidays everyone. i think that his post wouldn't be complete with out me putting my 2 cents in.i have a 48" all gas american range and even though i have a burner issue i think it's a great looker as well as a great performer.this puppy is built for the long run. the burner issue should be resolved tomorrow night(wed). ck the posts on american range. sealed yes but it works like a charm.ck out dvorsons food service equipt. prices.
john
jackson, n.j.
917-842-1809

Hi there....

So I decided on the Bluestar - it's back to the burner for me.....I just don't like the burner style with the sealed and/or Viking ranges.....and I have had a sealed burner set up for 9 years now (a Maytag AG convection that never gave me any troubles - just some issues with clean up and some frustration with the way things seemed to cook on the side of the pans.......). I like the idea of not cleaning at the range and the burner stye that both the Bluestar and the Wolf have seem to be more efficient to me.....

The burner style on the Wolf attracted me once I decided that I didn't want to go with Bluestar in April due to it not being distributed in Ontario.....that worked out well for me didn't it.....

So.....if I can get the retailer and the distributor to figure out how to get the Wolf out of my house and have the order for the Bluestar placed without me puttng more money down which adds insult to injury because the Bluestar is significantly less expensive here in Canada than the Wolf, I might have a range for Christmas.....

To say that I was unhappy yesterday because the 2 groups couldn't figure out how to make it happen without it being a problem for me would be an understatement.....

That with the 'it must be the size of the gas line that is causing your problem' even though the top tech for Wolf in this area says that it is not a gas supply problem has just made my week......

Will keep you posted on the progress but for now it looks like I won't have the right range for Christmas....

Johnnytugs.....I know that you love your American but its not offered here is Canada yet that I have seen and currently you should see the looks/chatter that I had from the retailer about going with Bluestar - can you imagine what it would be with an American range????

Happy holidays everyone......hopefully I will get to post before Christmas that I have the new range but it's not looking good right now...

Marion K.

Sorry you are still dead in the water. My Wolf started working immediately after the huge gas pipe was installed, and it has worked since. Have you talked to a plumber about your gas pipe size? Wolf told me that it just had to be 3/4" no matter how long the pipe is. I ended up needing 1 1/4" pipe according to the plumber, and now it works.

Marion, I'm sorry to hear that your frustrations continue, as does the incompetence and as do the completely mixed messages. Unbelievable. The guy I bought the Bluestar from said he had someone come in last week asking if he could service Wolf because "for some reason we can't get the burners to work while the oven's on". Shocking.

I received the reimbursemet check for the installation yesterday and thus ends my relationship with the Wolf appliance company. May they sort their mess out in someone else's kitchen from now on.

My gas line is being bumped up and my BS installed tomorrow. I will be in the unique position of being able to directly compare the Wolf and the BS after I've cooked on it for a while.

Having said that, I've rather enjoyed my 15 year old Maytag loaner. It's done everything I've asked of it. Granted, the broiler sucks, the convection fan doesn't do a thing, and it's ugly but at least I could use the burners and the oven at the same time.

I am so ready to put all of this behind me, as I'm sure everyone else is too.

The wolf spec is all about pressure.....my range is about 7 feet from the meter and it is 1/2" from the meter to just inside my house and then it is 3/4. If the real issue is about the diameter of the pipe then I would expect to see something in the installation instructions around that topic but what I see is a spec specifically around pressure. So as long as you comply on the pressure side, you should be fine......

The pressure is fine - at the meter and at the range.... I don't think this is a pressure issue or gas flow issue. If it was then I would have problems when I try to run all 6 burners on high - that would be 96K BTU.....no issues there. But if I put the oven on at 30K BTU and 1 burner on high, I have the problem - way less draw on the gas with the oven and 1 burner than all 6. Yet....I have the issue.

The Wolf repair tech checked the pressure and we are fine. All he focussed on was taping up leaks where he thought oven exhaust might leak into the burner pan area.....and when I chatted with the distributor, all they focussed on was the way the chimney exhausts on the range and that they were talking to the Wolf factory about it as well.

Right now.....I believe that this is a fundamental design flaw....might be an easy fix but for the amount of money that I spent on this @#$%^$ range I don't expect that the fix should be duct tape and high temp silicone caulking.

All I really want right now is to have a working range for Christmas......the fact that this is now once again my problem to arrange how this transaction should be finalized between the retailer and the distributor really annoys me - this shouldn't be that difficult.

ARGGGHHHHHHH.....

Marion K.

Marion K,
I live in Toronto and will be renovating a kitchen next year. I've narrowed my choice of ranges to American and Capital. I contacted American Range via emai and RK Foodservice (i think they are in Scarborough) is their Ontario distributor. I've spoken to Kumar at RK Foodservice directly and you can go there to see an American Range at their showroom. Kumar quoted a price of "around 5K" for athe 36" range but he seemed to open to negotiations. I haven't gotten there yet but plan to early next year. Let me know if you make it to the showroom.

Marion - Sorry your frustrations continue! I know it is most aggravating! No time is a good time to deal with this, but is is double frustrating during the holidays!

My Dad was just in town for a Christmas visit with the grandkids. Tried to use the oven & burners (same ol issue) and ended up cooking in stages to accomodate the range which is still sitting in the middle of the floor awaiting a swap out!

I hope you are able to get some help and a range soon!

keitel - I'm with you on the "old loaner". I'm starting to miss the "old" builder grade range that never gave an ounce of trouble. I'm willing to be the lady that got it from us is still using that thing without a second thought of whether it will work or not!

Just chatted with the distributor - apparently, I am chatting with a Service guy who is all about trying to help but between the retailer and the sales side of the distributor, apparently it takes 4 plus days to get a bill to the service guy (my wolf was part of a package deal so the invoice I have is useless to them - they need a separate invoice direct from the retailer)- told the service guy that I could send him my invoice for $21k and if he wanted to he could reimburse me off of that....LOL....obviously that didn't fly....

Apparently, the right hand can't speak to the left and I have to be the 'body' that connects the 2.......makes me crazy.

And.....I am certain once the distributor cuts me a cheque they will want the range back and I am pretty sure that I won't be able to get my new range now before Christmas.....I could just cry....

I guess its a good thing that I haven't had a chance to go up on Craigslist to advertise my old range.....I guess we will clean it up and put it in the hole that was for the Wolf.....just so that I can cook at Christmas....

Double ARGHHHHH.

Awchin.....I haven't really considered the American because I really want an open burner and the American is a sealed unit.....but I would post that info up separately so that other folks in the Toronto area can find out about this stuff. The retailers are less than helpful in this area.

Marion K.

Marion, I hope this gets resolved soon.

Dave said, "My gas line is being bumped up and my BS installed tomorrow. I will be in the unique position of being able to directly compare the Wolf and the BS after I've cooked on it for a while."

Well, not really. You are bumping up the gas line AFTER getting rid of the Wolf, so you can't really make a direct comparison. You won't know how much the gas line affected your issues--like Bob. That said, I hope you enjoy your Bluestar. My brother has an old Garland and loves it.

Dave, Marion,

I cannot believe what I have been reading of your troubles...hadn't visited in a while after our Wolf was delivered...too busy with ongoing renovations. I'm the person who mentioned AMG to you, Dave. I must say I have none, NONE, of the issues you have. However, my AG is in fact a factory built propane unit connected to a large tank in a rural installation. When I read your experiences, I went home and tried everything out, thinking I might have missed something terribly wrong. I haven't, which makes me all the more disappointed for everyone who is having a bad experience. I love my Wolf. My biggest adjustment is finding the center of the (much larger) heat area so I don't scorch one side of my sauce or the other. I don't know if the propane is the saving grace, or perhaps the size, as it is a 48", but I have superb performance from everything. Roasts are brilliant; I did a Thanksgiving turkey that was magnificent. What a merchandise and corporate relations disaster Wolf has crafted though, with your experiences. I'm so sorry to hear of it.

sharon, I just mean that I can compare cooking on the surface burners of the BS to the Wolf. I can also compare the broilers. I can also compare the oven. All of these things worked perfectly well in isolation on the Wolf. People always want to know which range is better. Oven/burner issues aside, I will be able to compare.

I don't know if I need to bump up the gas line, but given that the BS has even more BTUs than the Wolf, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

You and Breezy can compare notes. He/she had/has both as well.

Breezy, has the house sold yet? I mean, it's fun to have two ranges, but preferably in the same house, I would imagine! ;-)

Again I am sorry for your pain. I have no idea what I would of done if mine didn't start working. The $10,000.00 we spent on ours was not pocket change to us, it was a huge chunk of money, and if it wasn't working now, after spending another thousand for the new pipes, I would probably show up on the news,"hostage situation at the Wolf factory, film at eleven". I just wanted to give an update, haven't seen the last Wolf problem thread for a while. I probably should of found it, and posted on that.

Peace

Bob

The Bluestar is here!!!!!! And there is fire!!!!! And I am doing the burn-off now.....

And.....so far.....the burners light while the oven is on....Yeah!!!!!!

Will keep you posted on my progress......

Of course....the old range is sitting in my living room because I couldn't get the old distributor to call back to get it picked up on Friday.....

But I can cook for Christmas!!!! Yeah!!!!

Marion K.

Marion - that is great news! I am so glad for you. We are cooking on our new range too! They did take ours away but we are still waiting on refund $$!

Congrats! And happy cooking - I hope it is trouble free for you for many years.

That is such good news! I have been following the wolf threads, as I was about to get one last year, mainly due to concerns about service (we are almost 2 hours round trip from the nearest cow town, and 8 hours RT from a big city), up on 5000' mountain. However, I switched at the last moment and ordered a BS. It has been sitting here since then, and we just installed it a week ago.

Tonight I seasoned a carbon steel wok, and we made our first stir frys. There are almost no words to describe how absolutely good this food is - I am gob smacked. I haven't seen my dh tackle a plate like that since we first met 27 years ago, and he was a growing hungry boy:) I am on cloud nine.

All appliances can have issues, and it seems like more do today than in the past. I think you buy what moves you or what seems like a good idea at the time, and then just deal with what you are dealt! If I do have to repair another appliance (and I have had new fridge and new HP issues too, ie they died), then I might as well be repairing something like the BS that gives so much in return.

Did I tell you this BS becomes more fun the more I cook, and its only been a week? Congrats. Have fun cooking.

Marion, I was just in Tasco (Dufferin)last week to look at the Capital (36" 6 burner)... but I came away really impressed with the Bluestar burners and am seriously considering it. The Tasco sales guy was really pushing Wolf. He was ignorant about the problems with the Wolf AG that you and others have experienced. In fact, he was trying not to sell me the Bluestar..... Marion, I would love to hear more about your cooking experiences on your new range and any interactions you may have with Bluestar service. My only concern with the Bluestar (based on what I've read on this forum) is that the knobs and oven do get hot. I have toddlers in the house and need worry about that. BTW, if you don't mind, I'd love to know what you paid for your BS. I could send you a PM if you'd like. Thanks.

Awchin.....your experience is very similar to mine with Tasco....which one did you go to?

The BS has been a ton of fun to cook with. It was easy to get up and running and I haven't had any problems as yet that I would need service on. Having said that, the local distributor guy was very concientious in following up with me as I was going through the refund process with Tasco/Maroline - I know that it represented a sale to him but none the less.....

I have had 4 of the 6 burners going and the oven at the same time - Christmas dinner turned out great as did everything else that I have tried....well - I have to admit that the biscuits that I made yesterday morning were a little over done but that's just me trying to figure out the new stove and it's timing/heat....I got a new wok for Christmas but haven't tried it yet....

The burners are great, clean-up is no big deal and the true continuous grate system is really good - there are no gaps between the burner grates at all so sliding from one burner to the next is a piece of cake....

So as to the question about the heat....I didn't find that the knobs got hot with the oven on but....I did find that the drip tray and the kickplate got hot...very hot...uncomfortably hot.

But I think you are going to experience that with any of the pro style ranges to some degree - when I was doing the pre-burn in clean-up, I took the bottom of the oven out ( a very cool feature I think when it comes time to properly clean the oven)....the oven burner is below that and is essentially hidden by the kick plate of the range. When the oven burner goes for 3 hours or so at 350 degrees, there is going to be heat transfer.....

How old are your toddlers - I have always had a gas range in the house with my kids - they are now 9 year old twin boys - some combination of keeping them out of the kitchen, telling them not to touch, reprimanding them when they did and general supervision kept them safe...there was an amusing thread on Wolf ranges and knobs and kids just recently.....there might be some other ideas on keeping the kids safe there..

I guess my view of it is that the toddlers will be in that stage for a couple of years - hopefully the range will be there for the rest of the kids home life - you should get the range that suits your cooking style and educate your children on the safety aspect of the range much like you would on hundreds of other things in their lives....

As for the price....send me an email and I can get it to you......it was significantly less than the Wolf ( about $2K)......I did get their lowest pricing I think because of all of the other stuff that I purchased through them.....but I would have to say that I would never recommed that anyone go to Tasco for their appliances....they're great during the sales process but not so much afterwards.....

Marion K

This thread is depressing. I just found it after having the appliance technition leave after installing a new regulator on my 30" AG Wolf range. Ours came with the new house we bought and was specified in our negotiation of price for our house. Since we have no receipt, there's probably very little recourse available. I have very similar problems even after the regulator replacement. Gas line pressure was spot on according to PG&E (gas company). We have the 5" riser kit which cost us an additional 200 bucks, so the riser does not solve this problem. I'm convinced after reading all these posts that is is an engineering flaw, and Wolf should recall these faulty products. I'm not sure what year my range was built, but I have a call into their main number to figure that out from my serial number.

Has anyone tried taking video of this problem and posting on YouTube, so that the link can be sent to the service people so that they can see it for themselves. If this problem is pervasive among the Wolf customers there may be grounds for a class action suit. I wonder how many of us it would require to constitute a viable class. Maybe we should take a count of how many there are so far with this same problem.

-Brendan

So sorry to hear that you are having this problem as well.

I am convinced that it is an engineering flaw and that they should but probably won't recall these ranges.

Have you checked the size of the gas line? I know that you have the right pressure - so did I but there were some folks that had success with a 3/4" gas line - there are also some that don't but it's worth a check.....

As to the no receipt thing - is there a way to get the builder to give you a receipt that says it was a certain amount? My range was part of a package and I had the retailer get a receipt to the distributor with the amount of the range.....might not work but then again it is worth a try....

Marion K.

oh....and I meant to mention that one of the other former owners caught it on video but I am not certain that it made youtube. Look for thread called Wolf AG problems - there are 3 of them and one of them - I think the second one has a link to this video....

Plum....do you still have it?

Marion K.

Yep, I do still have that. I never got it to you tube though. I did however, email it to the distributor in ATL and the retailer. I know the service mgr, sales rep (distributor) and salesman (retailer) all received it.

And, regarding the range/receipt - just make sure you are registered w/your warranty and have all service call information. There should be a way you can get this worked out. The problems seem to have started with the new design that was for 08 - is your oven door the new design that has the fatter handle and opens easier? If so, then you are able to narrow down the production date from when they started on that model. They should be able to tell you at Wolf tech when it was made.

Sorry you are going through this - hang in there. Let us know and do look up the other post - lots of info there too.

Take care,

Make sure when you call to ask for a senior technician (cust svce is very sympathetic, but not empowered).

It wouldn't hurt to explain the situation to the cust svce person who answers the phone though, too.

I see mention of gas line size. As someone who will be getting a Bluestar - for those of you who switched - what gas size line do you have? Since they will be relocating it anyway, might as well have them bump it up if need be at the time. Is 3/4" sufficent - or should I go 1" or 1 1/4" or ???

When the Wolf went I bumped the line up from 1/2" to 3/4" for the Bluestar. Don't even know if I needed to, but at that point I was just so tired of screwing around, I wanted it all to be over with. Haven't looked back since. I honestly think anything over 3/4" would be overkill.

Never change mine...i was a brand new line run about 8 ft from the meter to where the range was. Problems with the Wolf...absolutely none with the Bluestar.....and I checked the specs multiple times.....what they are looking for is a specific gas line pressure. If you have it you should be fine.....if the diameter of the line is so important, why is it not on the spec.....mostly because it totally depends on how far away from the meter your range is, how many bends the line has to take to get there, how many splices of that line there are to supply other appliances etc. So 1/2" works for me because it is a dedicated line with a short run and no bend other than through the wall of the house.....others have a much more complicated set up and may have to go much bigger.....as far as I know, only a licenced gas fitter can really tell you what you need - sayng always you need 3/4' is the easy way out of not having to think or consider the specific client configuration.

Good luck with it....I hope that you get some resolution on this issue.

Marion K.

...what they are looking for is a specific gas line pressure. If you have it you should be fine.....if the diameter of the line is so important, why is it not on the spec....

Say what?! Of course! you need the correct gas pipe sizing also! The unit wants to produce a flame of a certain size (BTU) - it needs to be able to burn a certain amount of fuel to be able to do so: you cannot provide the requisite amount of fuel with an arbitrary sized pipe simply because you have the correct diameter. Pressure in an "open" line (such as one with a flame at the end of it) will only govern the speed of transit of the molecules through the pipe - not how many molecules of gas there are to burn at the end. Ultimately it is the fuel flow rate (and other things such as amount of air mixing) that govern whether or not your flame-maker makes a "proper" flame.

Seriously, Marion, you can't make the same big fire if you feed it one briquet every 10 minutes as you could if you fed it one big log every 10 minutes or one bundle of firewood every ten minutes. Feed rate is only part of the story.

I have a wolf cooktop and they absolutely have a gas diameter spec too. Unfortunately, Wolf doesn't have the efficiency of the European manual writers so the gas pipe sizing is in a different location in the manual than the supply pressure specification. I used to have a Bosch and with proper Germanic logic, all supply specs are properly collected under a very logical sounding subtitle. The wolf takes more specing and if you were interested, you would call and check sizing with them. At the very least, you ought to do so for the Bluestar - you don't want gas-burning appliances to be configured in an off-nominal situation. Bends and turns impact the effective impedance on your line and while they can be an issue for you (I'm not going to get into it here) ultimately, being able to reliably give each unit the fuel flow rate is really what is required.

On the fact that hte Bluestar is functioning well while the Wolf was not: Here's an odd little coincidental tidbit. My wolf unit says I need a supply pressure of 7-14 water column inches - that is, at the in-port to the regulator. I used to have a Bosch which said its regulator wanted to see a supply pressure of 6-14" water column - same point. I never had any discernible issues with the Bosch and I never knew what the pressure on the supply pipe was (oh yes, both wanted a 0.5" supply pipe to the unit). Well, with the new Wolf, I did have some issues and made a service call. Service guys found that the supply pressure was not-quite 5 water column inches - instead of the requisite 7" (pipe sizing was fine). Well, it was the same thing for the Bosch - it was only the cooktop that changed, not the rest of hte house. I didn't "see" a problem while using the Bosch but clearly, it was still obviously an off-nominal setup. Ergo, it didn't mean that there wasn't a problem. The regulator really should be driven within the parameters it is designed for - badness can accrue otherwise. I'm having mine pressure bumped up - I would at least check with Bluestar what its requirements are. I'd be surprised if the needs for a heavy duty range are the same as a cooktop!

Thanks. Since we have to have our gas line relocated - I figured it would be easiest to have them bump it up now just to be on the safe side. I did some more perusing on the Blue Star site and looking at the installtion manual they recommend the gas line size be the same size or larger than the gas inlet on the BS. Specifically they say the BS has either a 1/2 or 3/4" npt inlet (depending on model) and they recommend the gas connection be 1/4" more than the NPT inlet size

I'm still up in the air between BS and Wolf. I was told today that they are not shipping all gas Wolf ranges for a couple of weeks. And the above posts are almost 5 months old. Any comments? Thanks.

Did they give a reason why they are not shipping?

I have a wolf cooktop and they absolutely have a gas diameter spec too.

I have the Wolf RT364G rangetop awaiting install and there is definitely a gas diameter specification. Wolf says that the gas line must be a minimum 3/4'' ID. That's 4 16K BTU burners plus an 18K BTU griddle, total 82,000 BTU.

The 30'' Wolf range is rated at 94,000 BTU. (4 x 16,000 plus 30,000 BTU oven)

I've noted that at least some of the folks on the forum who have had probs with the Wolf range have had less than 3/4'' pipe serving the stove so I'm guessing that there's a good chance than the issue lays with the supply pipe not delivering sufficient gas supply to the appliance. The delivery capacity of 1/2'' pipe is approximately one-half the delivery capacity of 3/4'' pipe at the get go. Length of the piping is another significant factor because the longer the run, the less the capacity.

We are also having problems with our Wolf AG. The replacement we received has the exact problem that the first did (as well as a couple other issues!) I don't know whether we should try a third or just get something else. I really wanted the Wolf to work. I'm also curious why they are not shipping the AG ranges. Does anyone know?