Appliances We are Considering Wolf, Sub Zero, Miele

12 years ago

Hello,

I am new to this forum and have been reading through a number of posts. This is exactly the kind of EXPERIENCED dialogue I have been seeking. Our situation: just purchased a home and will be undertaking a major renovation of the main floor which will be open concept with the kitchen as focal point. We have a lot of space to work with (basically 19' x 19'for the kitchen component). I do the bulk of cooking in our home so I will be responsible for appliances and working layout, my wife and our designer will do the styling and design. I am leaning toward the following Wolf R366 AG range (I've seen too much negative banter about competitive Viking product),plus a wall oven and I really like the Miele product though I could go Wolf in this regard. DW will likely be Miele, and then we need to decide Miele vs. Sub Zero in the refrigeration department. So basically we are leaning toward a Wolf/Sub Zero or Wolf/Miele kitchen. Any thoughts and opinions would be most welcome!

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Comments (10)

User
12 years ago
You can do worse.

The ovens are a tossup - both really good. Get which one has the most intuitive control layout TO YOU.

Miele DW, check.

Fridge - are you looking for stainless model or a Fully Integrated, totally concealed type ?
PeterH2
12 years ago
We spent a lot of time looking at the Miele and Electrolux ovens, and decided we prefer the user interface of the Electrolux WaveTouch - the Miele seemed to reauire more presses to get common tasks done. The Electrolux is a great deal cheaper than the Miele, but I have never seen anything to indicate that the Miele will do a better job or be more reliable (rather the reverse, if anything).

If you have not looked at the BlueStar and Capital Culinarian ranges, and you are serious about cooking, you should.
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Who are you buying them from? If it's a large independent dealer, you should be able to do just as well getting the appliances you want rather than the "packages" which are designed by the makers to make you think you have to stick with them so make them more money. Most appliance stores have a discount for contractors and interior designers. Usually the same percentage (10-20% depending on local custom, usually more in the 10-15% range). Sometimes, there will be more for one or the other group because of connections, volume, promotion, whim etc. Since you're doing a major remodel and looking at mid- to high- end appliances, I'm thinking you have at least a general contractor, or maybe a plumber/gc. Even if you don't, since you're buying a whole suite of appliances, the store may give you the contractor's discount anyway. If that isn't possible, you still have negotiating room. While the store may be locked into fairly narrow contracted price floors (as if they were selling fine art!), they have other ways they can give you discounts. They can give you a free dishwasher, for instance (a common occurrence), and/or free delivery and/or installation. They may also pay for an extended warranty, though those aren't worth nearly as much, dollar for dollar, as something tangible. They're more for emotional support. So, given that, I'd choose SZ/Wolf or Thermador. Thermador may cost less (depending on exchange) and it's fine. Wolf has great ovens, but there are a few potential problems (I think the jury is still out on whether they've 100% beaten an issue with the enamel). I prefer the layout of the SubZero refrigerators. If you're getting gas, I love the Wolf double stacked burners. I prefer Thermador's dishwasher to the Asko, which is what I think you get with SZ/W. That's without even considering Miele, Liebherr, BlueStar ranges, etc.
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I would avoid any Wolf product that has a blue interior. They have had a 10 year problem with the blue enamel chipping. If you ask about it they will say they never heard of it or it is fixed or it just affects a few ovens. The M wall oven was designed to deal with this issue with a removable bottom and there are reports of the M chipping. Wolf does have excellent service for the two or three years you are under warranty but after that they are still very nice but you will pay through the nose because only their people can work on their products. The liner for the wall ovens usually breaks down at a quicker pace than the dual fuel ranges. Some of our posters here have been through at least three ovens. There are are some class action lawsuits over this. Some people with chipping were talked into buying up into a more expensive model only to have it chip. in my case I had a DF range and the liner chipped at 4.5 years, out of the full warranty and they told me the liner wasn't covered at all. They first tried to tell me it was cosmetic but shards of blue glass flying in a convection fan is dangerous and one of our posters got cut on a shard. After haggling back and forth they "gave" me a liner but the labor would start at $800 and go up depending on what they find. The sad thing is even if I would spring for repairs($800+ and I read as high as $2500), they would only guarantee the new liner for a year. Such confidence. I can only use the oven with covered dishes and no convection. It is a good oven and I was a big fan before this happened. We bought because of Wolf's reputation for standing behind their products but have been extremely disappointed. I do like the rangetop. It has a great simmer. The all gas Wolf does not have the blue interior. What type of cooking do you do? What type of cookware do you use? Do you bake or broil? There are so many options for burners and ovens. Have you considered a rangetop and wall ovens. You can pick the best of each. I would look at BlueStar. The burners are completely different than Wolf. Even though I like my Wolf burners, I might consider a BS rangetop. Do you plan on a 30" or? Grill or griddle?
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dodge59
12 years ago
Great Advice, PeterH2.

I love the great big window on the Elux oven door, how cool the door stays, the huge (wavetouch display which "to me" is intuitive) and easily read without my glasses.
Throw in the fully gliding out racks, (smooth as silk) even after 5 years, and an oven that understands "C" or "F" degrees, I have no idea what temp scale Miele's use, but it ain't one of the above-----Need proof, just do a search for Miele oven temperatures.

Miele does make a great dishwasher however, We have the Optima, again for 5 years now and it has "somehow" managed
to keep up with the reliability of my other Elux appliances---Speed Oven, Induction cooktop and wine fridge.

I do not recommend buying Elux DW's or their fridges.
As has been said , time and time again here, No appliance maker makes the best appliance for everything, Elux and Wolf have it right on the ovens, Miele the DW's.

For a fridge I would at least look at the Jennairs, it is usually the #1 rated fridge for reliability per folks that responded to surveys by Consumer Reports, yep, top of the heap, can you guess who was on the bottom, reliability wise?, alto now I think they are 3 up from the bottom, at least last time I checked.

If you are a serious cook, which your post seems to indicate, then U really have 3 choice, Capital, Blue Star and possibly American Range--all high powered open burner gas ranges--alto my induction unit will blow the socks off any of those when it come to boiling water, precise and instant temp control, ease of cleaning etc, but I do recognize that there are still "Gassers" in this World!!

Good luck on your hunt, hope it works out as well for you as it has for us, 5 years later, and still no service calls cept for a loose handle on the speed oven.

Gary
eugenie11
12 years ago
I made similar choices to yours, and found the reviews at GardenWeb very helpful.

SubZero owns Wolf (or the other way around) so you can get great deals if you buy both together. After all my research, I found SubZero was the ONLY brand that got absolutely NO negative reviews from ANYONE. I chose the 36" bottom freezer. But I think ALL their models are great, and we looked at Leibherr, Miele, GE Monogram and ElectroLux fridges. My second choice would have been the Miele, but SubZero got better reviews and Miele was about the same price. I know SubZero is expensive, but I really think for both design and function they are the best.

Wolf also gets great reviews, but not enough to justify being almost twice as expensive as similar ranges. I was considering the Wolf 36" gas range, but I found the oven door was too heavy. Ultimately, I decided to get wall ovens and an induction cooktop. I would have chosen the Wolf wall ovens but they only come in 30" and I was limited to 27". Like Gary, I have the ElectroLux Wave Touch and so far it seems great.

I have a Miele 36" 5-burner induction cooktop (just installed today!). And a Miele dishwasher (the only appliance I didn't replace).

Hope this helps. Good luck!
athomesewing
12 years ago
SubZero and Wolf are both made in the USA. (:
cinciguy
12 years ago
We are finishing our kitchen decisions on a new home and considering many of the same options for these reasons (maybe this helps). Our biggest two criteria on any appliance: does it do its basic function REALLY well and second, does it fit my wife's design style (I should probably reverse the order):

Miele Dishwasher - we had it before and it is our favorite appliance - it washes and dries like nothing else (we are getting the one with no handle so its just a straight ss look.

SubZero - we are looking for a 20 year fridge and the 42 or 48 side by side are appealing - it has the track record and the even temps (it does its basic function well). We've had GE and KA fridges before and the temp is all over the place.

Electrolux Micro/Oven Combo - this is more about design to match the Subzero handles - the only issue here is the Electrolux ovens are not as deep but the controls are great. The other option we considered was GE Monogram, but there are so many "Never buy a GE appliance" posts that's it feels like too much risk.

Cooktop: here we have a problem: induction or gas? I am drawn to the induction for the speed to boil water, built in timers, less heat generation, and easy clean up. My wife is drawn to the gas for the old world look - we are trying to build a turn of the century home (as in 1899 to 1900 (or is it 1900 to 1901)

Any advice on the cooktop is welcome. If we go gas, we are thinking Thermador for the star burners. If induction, we are considering the ones with some texture (not Miele) to them to avoid the black shiny look.
Jm_seattle
12 years ago
Agree with dodge59 on paying attention to the details like the interfaces. I love the way our Miele oven cooks, but am not a fan of the interface.

One complaint is that the menu is non-intuitive (more than once I've accidentally turned off the oven while trying to clear the timer).

Another complaint is the inconsistencies across the product line. As an example, we have both a Miele oven and a Miele steam oven, both of which have the exact same controls. Both use the exact same 00:00 input to set the cook time, but on the oven it's mm:ss and on the steam oven it's hh:mm. I'm finally getting to the point now where I don't set the oven for 10 seconds or the steam oven for 5 hours.

We got sold on Miele quality & performance, and so didn't pay as much attention to these other details as we should have. If they actually last decades as they're supposed to, then we likely made the right decision for us, but I still would have rather it had been a more informed decision.

For the record, the Miele can be set to either F/C, and we haven't had any issues with the F setting. We researched many of the complaints (in this forum and others) around Miele temperature, and ended up convincing ourselves that those with the problems had an incorrect power setting (as is mentioned in many of the forum posts).
dodge59
12 years ago
Thanks for the inputs on the Miele oven temps jm.

There has been a dearth of info about the ovens
(at least here on GW)since, basically "all the guts"--ie latest software/firmware fix incorporated had been installed in a miele oven that had low temperature problems and it did not fix the problem, so we all have been "Kinda left hanging".
(Ya know what I mean)?? So it's helpful for folks like you to chime in that have had good luck and
(accurate temps for baking) with their Miele ovens.
AT least that way potential Miele oven purchasers are able to look at "Both sides of the Story", (Good and bad), weight the odds, and make an informed decision.

Your best "Odds" if you want to purchase a Miele oven would be to purchase it from Antss-----As I recall, He has posted He has never seen the temp problem with the Miele ovens--so
How can you do better than those "Odds"?

I was doing a bit of "Clowning" with the comment about the
"C" and "F" scales and it's "relevance" to the Miele oven.
We had seem posts where we were told that the Miele's oven temp could not be measured accurately by a
"Conventional Oven Thermometer"---not sure where the poster of that information got that info-----but it was
"Kind of a Dig" at that info, as most the "Serious cooking/baking web-sites" I visit recommend an oven thermometer.

Anyway great to hear your works jm!

Gary
ahmack
12 years ago
Range: as far as ranges go, we have owned both the dual fuel and gas Wolf ranges, and loved them both. If you tend to do a lot of baking, and prefer the different baking options, go with the dual fuel. If you tend not to do so much baking, the gas range is unmatched in its capability and quality. Keep in mind that the gas range is a more timeless look, while the dual fuel is a bit more modern in its aesthetics. It should also be noted that the broiler on the gas Wolf will blow you out of the water--restaurant quality.

Wall oven: Miele and Wolf seem about equal in the wall oven category, but I personally prefer to keep the number of brands I use to a minimum, to make servicing more convenient.

Dishwasher: Go for the Miele. I have owned three, (we have moved more times than I care to count) and the quality and service of Miele is unparalleled. It truly is the category.

Refrigeration: I would have to go with the Sub on this one. While my refrigerators have been Gaggenau and Thermador, I have heard nothing but exceptional reviews on he Sub Zero line. They are built and serviced in the US, and their service record speaks for itself. I am building my house now, and have decided to go with a Sub Zero.

Good luck!
lexi65
8 years ago
Eugenie11:. Although this is old thread, any chance you can opine on your

Miele Induction Cooktop? Thanks!

Appliances We are Considering Wolf, Sub Zero, Miele

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PeterH2

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