sabrinaflorida -
I hate to tell you this, but a sloppy contractor will do a sloppy job on any house, if he/she can get away with it. A good contractor will do a good job.

I have not read your prior posts, but do I understand right that you hired the contractor that recommended the contractor that did a poor job? If so, you might want to reconsider that.

A good contractor will help you do what you can with the budget you set - not just do shoddy work. For instance, they would recommend a less expensive tile or chrome instead of nickel faucets to keep you in budget - not get cheap shoddy labor.

Good luck - these situations are always stressful, particularly when you are not all that familiar with the details of how the work should be done.

Just curious about the experience of other GardenWeb folks--do you think it's true that a contractor will likely think it's OK to do a sloppy job in an older, imperfect house?

My house is just over 100 years old, and I'm about to gut one of my bathrooms. When done, the original owner would be proud of the work I've done to her house.

Where abouts in Fla. are you? I know good tile contractors from all over that state.

Bill_Vincent, I'm in Gainesville. Our general contractor did all the tile work himself, by the way.

Pussuskattus, yes, we have hired the contractor who recommended the contractor we used. At this point we don't know what else to do, as we need somebody to supervise the repairs that need to be done and we no longer have any trust for the original contractor.We do think our new contractor has our best interests at heart. He is a customer of my husband's and seems like a good guy.

hi Sabrina,
My recommendation is that you loose this guy and hire someone who is more respectful of your home. I am afraid however that this does sound like the shower needs to be torn out and rebuilt with correct waterproofing. Tile splitting at the curb is a dead give-away that the lumber used to build the curb has swelled due to being saturated. I've heard too many times how common it is in Florida for people to forgo a waterproofing membrane because many house there are built on slabs and the seepage is expected to drain under the house. It's absolutely flawed logic but since Florida has no building codes to speak of, except for Hurricane construction to protect insurance companies bottom-line, there is no one there to shake any sense into the handymen calling themselves "contractors".
If Bill's got someone in mind to recommend, you can trust that it's someone who understands the "why" as well as the "how to build a proper shower.
Best of luck,
Shaughnn

I love it. According to him if you lived in a "nice house" he'd have ensured that your shower was watertight. But since he considers your house to be of average construction, he's condoning the shoddy construction and the lackadaisical mentality of the people working on your house.

The absurdity of it all. Nothing but excuses.

Thanks to all for the comments. Sometimes I wonder if expecting people to do an honorable job makes me off kilter with the rest of the world. It's good to hear that I'm not the only one! (Where's John Lennon when I need him? :-))

Here's the email my husband received from our new contractor, who will be supervising demolition and reconstruction (names changed):

"I was under the impression that Bill did that (created a sloping bed, then laid the pan material, then covered it with a tile setting bed, then laid the tile). If not, it needs to be done that way or water can "pond" and stay on the shower pan material for days (or longer) and become a mold generator by keeping the setting bed, grout and tile wet. Your photographs show the membrane liner covered in a tile setting bed. The building inspector should have checked that prior to approving concealment. We will make that a part of our investigation.

"I did meet personally with Bill yesterday and he agreed to do whatever is needed to: 1) completely fix the problem with the curb, 2) to deal with the cosmetic issues around the window and window screen and 3) to caulk the toilet and sink at no cost to you. He was quite embarrassed about the whole thing. He also agreed to schedule the work as we discussed, first a visit to try to determine the cause of the problem and the extent of the repairs needed. The initial work will be a demolition type investigation and will make quite a mess of your shower rendering it unusable. He will then gather all of the materials needed (based on the result of the investigation and the extent of the demolition required to fix whatever the problem is). Once he has all of the materials he will return at a time you designate, will start work each day as early as you want, will continue to work all day until he has either done all that can be done (need to wait for something to dry), or he has worked as late as you want him there. He will then return the next day and continue in that manner until all work is complete. There will not be any periods when he goes away to work on another job. Your job will be his first, second, third and only priority until it is completed.

"I will be present during the investigation and will write out a detailed list of what is to be done to fix the problem, cure the cosmetic issues and complete work that is not yet done. I will document the needed work in photographs as much as possible. Once this is done you and Bill will have to agree to this "Scope of Work" that I prepare before any repairs begin.

"After the repair work begins I will inspect it when all demolition is completed, prior to concealment and after Bill says he is done. At that time I will make a completion inspection and list any items that are not satisfactory. I will continue to follow-up until I am satisfied that all work has been done in compliance with all codes and standards and the quality is reflective of good workmanship standards generally accepted in the industry. Bill will bear the cost of any return inspections, not you.

"Unfortunately it is not clear to either Bill or me what the problem is, and there are any number of things that could be causing it. Bill sincerely wants to make it right and wants to do it in one attempt, not two or three. We may never know what really went wrong (defect in the pan liner, hole made by a screw or nail, improper connection at the drain / liner intersection, etc.). We may never know, but it will be much better if we are able to determine the cause because then we can be assured that whatever the cause was is done differently and the problem will not return. One thing I would like you to approve is a change of window sill materials from tile to marble so that we can eliminate grout joints in the sill and overhang it past the face of the tile. Please let me know if this is acceptable to you and your wife.

"Bill will be calling me this afternoon to tell me when he can come and do the first portion of the work. I will relay those dates to you for you to decide when you want it to be."

He reiterated in a second email that he will be present for the entire demolition and will be taking photos of all the stages of "investigative demolition" as well and will then write the "Scope of Work" and review it with Bill before sending it to my husband and I for approval along with the photographs.

So(if you have read this far), do you think, after this is all over, that we should hand the bill for our new contractor over to our old contractor to pay? New contractor will be charging us $100/hr for the time he is actually in our house; he estimates we will pay him around $500. Well worth it to us, and of course we will pay the bill, just wondering if you think it's reasonable to ask the old contractor to pay up. I do think it's reasonable.

Sabrina, much as I sympathize, I don't see how you can stick the original contractor with the bill to pay your new guy for overseeing the work. It sounds like the original contractor -- who you didn't contact directly -- is saying that he is absolutely willing to do whatever it takes to make things right. (And well he should.) You have decided that you want another contractor to oversee/review his work for your peace of mind. I understand -- but I don't see that this is the responsibility of the original contractor. Just my opinion; I'd defer to Bill or Mongo or Shaughnn if they weigh in.

-- Eric

Eric, you're probably right. There are a lot of things that happened during the remodel that I was unhappy with--the original contractor did a sloppy job (getting little spots of paint all over the cherry vanity and mirror, doing an ugly job of drywall taping/mudding/painting on two of the walls,a huge mess of grout on the window tile surround, not caulking places he should have caulked, taking weeks to finish a job he said would take a few days because he kept leaving to do other jobs), and because of all that AND the subsequent failure of the water-proofing, I did not think the original contractor was trustworthy enough to perform the pending demolition/rebuilding without supervision.

Also, we now have to deal with the headaches of ANOTHER remodel. Not fun.

However, I would much rather pay the $$$ to the new contractor to supervise than to put blind trust in the old contractor, so I guess it's reasonable to eat the $500.

I'm a little confused by all the new versus old.

Are you essentially hiring a new general contractor to oversee while the original tile subcontractor (Bill?) who built the shower makes repairs to his own failed work?

And was the original tiler (Bill) also your original general contractor? ie, did Bill oversee the entire remodel and hire other subs (electrical, plumbing, for example), but Bill also did the failed shower pan and tile work on his own, in essence acting as a tile subcontractor too?

Mongoct,yes to all your questions.

The way the relationships usually work is that you have to give the guy who built the broken shower a chance to rectify it. If you don't do that (because he's a true knucklehead, or he refuses to reply to your correspondence, etc) and you hire someone else to repair the work, then it usually requires going to court to get him to pay for the new person you hired to repair his faulty work.

In this case you're giving Bill a chance to make good. That's all fine and dandy. But you can't expect him to pay the tab for the new guy that you hired to watch him while Bill makes the repairs.

With Bill being the original GC and the original tiler, it's generally up to him to pay for the cost of the repairs...materials and labor...not counting any new changes, such as the marble sill. You guys can certainly negotiate that.

You can certainly send Bill the invoice for the $500 that the new GC is charging, but he's really under no obligation to pay for it.

Now if you had found that Bill was to a certain extent incompetent to do the repairs on his own and you needed to hire the new GC to force Bill to make the correct repairs, then you could send Bill the invoice...he may pay or he may not...then you could take him to small claims court and make your case against him.

But generally it's best to discuss these things ahead of time and not after.

"Hey Bill, since you're not sure what caused the shower to fail, would you be amenable to bringing in a third party to help diagnose the failure and help prepare a course of action to make the repairs?"

You could discuss it with your new GC and get his opinion. It's likely your GC won't want to do anything other than what you hired him to do...help Bill with the repairs and then get paid by the person that hired him...you.

The nuances of the situation are certainly up for interpretation. That's just my opinion.

Thanks, mongoct, I really appreciate that you have taken the time to answer my questions in so much detail.

Today we found out from New Contractor that Old Contractor apparently admitted to him that he did not slope the shower pan. He laid it flat and sloped the mud and tile over it.

New Contractor also said that Old Contractor will fix everything in the shower and has already ordered and paid for new tile, but that Old Contractor does not want my husband and I present while he does the work and does not want to discuss any of this with my husband and I.

When Old Contractor did the original work, although he did a sloppy job and we had to ask to have several things redone, we were on good terms at all times. We were polite with all our requests.

I am suspicious now that the reason Old Contractor doesn't want to have to see or speak to my husband or I is because he didn't do the work to code, didn't get permits and inspections, and doesn't want us to find out.We EXPLICITLY told him when we signed the contract that we wanted everything done to code, permitted, etc. and we paid extra for this. I am thinking maybe he got the plumbing permitted but not the construction because I don't see how the construction could have passed inspection.

I think I should call the city/county permitting dept or code enforcement before any work proceeds. Or should I just tell New Contractor that we want all work permitted and inspected and make sure it actually gets done this time? I am concerned we will end up with another poorly done job and have no recourse.

Here is the email my husband received from New Contractor today (names changed):

"No demolition was needed, so your house is as clean and intact as it was when we arrived. That is a good thing.[I suspect no demolition was needed because Old Contractor knew what he did wrong and told New Contractor]

"SCOPE OF THE WORK AND SCHEDULE:

"The shower pan is not sloped as required by the Florida Code, so the floor of the shower must come out in any event. That made the assessment easy. Bill will, at no cost to you, protect your new carpet and then remove the floor of the shower and the shower curb. He will remove the grout placed on top of the pan. The pan will be saved (unless it is damaged) and I will make an inspection of the floor under the pan and of the pan itself. He will construct a new curb if it is damaged. If the pan can be used Bill will place grout sloped at 1/4" per 12" from the perimeter of the shower to the drain and then place the pan over it. If a new pan is required (or if the floor requires repair) the bottom row of tile will be removed from all walls (instead of just the north wall and the curb) and a new pan will be installed over the sloped bed. This work is expected to take 6 to 8 hours and will all be done on the first day.

The next day I will inspect and flood test the pan. If the pan fails this test we will go back one step and replace it. Then Bill will place a setting bed over the pan. This will take about 2 hours and then the setting bed must cure.

The next day no work will be done while we wait for the setting bed to cure completely.

The next day Bill will place the tile and clean-up the grout around the window. This should take 4 hours.

The next day Bill will grout the tile and re-grout the window to tile intersection. This should take about 2 hours.

The final day Stan [shower door installer] will come and re-install the shower door, Bill will caulk and do final clean-up. I will come and inspect. If all work is satisfactory, he is done. If not, I make a list and he completes the items and then I re-inspect at his cost. This repeats until all work is done in good workmanlike manner and to code. He is willing to replace the window sill with Marble if you and I want, but after looking at it again today I'm not as adamant about it as I was before. It is your choice.

Bill has already ordered the tile and paid for it. The tile store said it will arrive no sooner than Monday, December 27th. My wife and I will be out of town the week of December 27 through Friday December 31. Please decide when you would like to have him perform the work after that according to the schedule above keeping in mind my availability to make inspections. He has asked that neither you nor your wife be there while he is there doing the work, so take that into account when deciding what days and times you want him there. He is very embarrassed about the whole thing and has asked me to express his most sincere apologies for both the failure of the work and the lack of code compliance. He does not want to face you or to discuss it with either of you."

The requirement by Old Contractor to not see you or talk to you before, during or after the work is done seems extremely odd. He could easily come in, offer his profuse apologies to you, tell you he'll make it right -- as verified by New Contractor -- and get out of your hair; if he's concerned that you'll be nasty to him over his work and the subsequent problems, he only needs to say he's going to make things right but doesn't work well under pressure or criticism. If you're 100% confident that New Contractor will represent your interests and insure the work is truly done right, then I guess it doesn't matter, but it just seems awkward and a bit odd.

I don't know how it works where you live, but your contractor should have had the permit(s) while the job was in progress such that you could have seen them, he should be able to show you the receipts from your local permitting authority to prove he did apply for the permits, and you should have received some form of acknowledgement or certificate of occupancy when your house passed its final inspection.

-- Eric

There are quite a few things that concern me about how your shower is to be repaired

"The shower pan is not sloped as required by the Florida Code, so the floor of the shower must come out in any event. That made the assessment easy. Bill will, at no cost to you, protect your new carpet and then remove the floor of the shower and the shower curb. He will remove the grout placed on top of the pan.

What is grout doing on top of the pan?

The pan will be saved (unless it is damaged) and I will make an inspection of the floor under the pan and of the pan itself. He will construct a new curb if it is damaged. If the pan can be used Bill will place grout sloped at 1/4" per 12" from the perimeter of the shower
Again, what's with the grout being used here?

to the drain and then place the pan over it. If a new pan is required (or if the floor requires repair) the bottom row of tile will be removed from all walls

I believe that more than just one row of tiles may need to be removed, and how is he going to tie the membrane in with the shower wall waterproofing?

I'm certainly not an expert, but it doesn't sound right to me. I'm sure that Bill or Mongo will chime in here.

You might also want to check out this Shower construction thread from the John Bridge forum for more information.

Here is a picture of a cross section of a properly built shower:

A couple of things...

"Grout" is probably deck mud. Could be regional, could be poor word choice on the part of your new contractor. "Deck mud" is a lean portland cement mixture, generally 5 parts sand to 1 part portland cement. Mixed with just enough water so it sticks together like beach sand used to build a sand castle. It's not concrete, it's not mortar, it's not grout, it's deck mud, or dry pack.

Saving the "pan" for re-use? Nope. Have them provide you with a new membrane. Take a good look at the cross section of the shower that terricks posted. If the membrane is flat on the floor but still water-tight, all you're going to get is a slow drying shower floor. The mud bed under the tile may saturate. The grout may stay wet for extended periods and mildew. You might see wet grout at the bottom courses of wall tile due to water wicking up the walls a bit. But the curb? The curb structure should still be as dry as a bone.

There's either a leak in the membrane; in the membrane itself, at the clamping drain, in a corner, or the membrane is not properly detailed despite being flat on the floor.

Despite the membrane being flat on the floor, the curb should not be wet and blowing apart due to swelling.

So there is no way on earth they can reuse the "pan" or membrane.

Also look at Terrick's graphic, where the membrane turns up the shower walls. The membrane should run 8" to 10" up the shower walls. You can see that the membrane goes against the wall studs. The poly or felt runs down the wall and laps over the membrane, The cement board or tile backer board then goes on the wall, but does not get screwed or nailed where the membrane is. Remember, no fasteners through the membrane. The only places where the membrane gets fastened is at the top edge where it runs up the walls to secure it to the wall studs. On the outside face of the curb. And it also gets clamped at the drain.

So how in the world are they going to remove the membrane without removing the bottom rows of wall tile and cutting away the bottom section of tile backer board?

"He will construct a new curb is damaged"? The curb is most definitely damaged. The wood most likely expanded due to moisture absorption, right? So that wood will not be used either.

What Bill needs to do is:

1) demo the curb to the membrane.
2) Demo the shower floor, remove tile and deck mud to expose the membrane.
3) remove the bottom few rows of wall tile up about 10" to 12" above the height of the shower drain.

4) Cut the tile backer board horizontally a couple of inches below the bottom of the remaining course of wall tile. Careful when cutting, as you don't want to cut into the felt or poly (6-mil thick polyethylene plastic sheeting or #15 tar paper).

5) Fold up the poly or felt and tape it to the tile higher up on the wall.
6) Undo the clamping drain and remove the membrane. Toss it, it's no good.
7) Make any repairs to the exposed subfloor.

Then rebuild it properly.

The guy doesn't want you there? doesn't even want to see you? Right. He's really earned the right to work unsupervised, hasn't he. To let him work unsupervised is not a wise move. I think letting him do the work is not wise. He's not trustworthy. But that's my opinion. But my other opinion is that either you are there or your new contractor is there. He's already proven to be untrustworthy and to not do proper work.

Remember, the core issue is not just a flat membrane. Water somehow got under the membrane to saturate the curb. I'd want to see the membrane detailing around the curb. The folds at the inside corners, see if there are any nails or screws in the top or inside face of the curb.

The thing is that if he didn't detail the folds or if he put fasteners through the membrane the first time, he's going to do it again. He'll just do it with a sloped membrane instead of a flat membrane.

I will raise a warning flag about your new contractor. So okay, we know the membrane wasn't sloped. But why did the curb swell and expand? How did water get under the membrane and into the structure of the curb? I'm not sure if your new guy knows how the curb failed, or if he knows how to repair a shower, or how to build one.

I'd want eyes on the project when the demo is carried out. I'd want to see the membrane with the tile and mud off of it. I'd want to see if he just nailed cement board to the faces of the curb, nailing right through the membrane.

I'd want to see if he nailed through the bottom edge of the backer board on the walls, nailing through the membrane, creating little holes.

Hey, maybe your #1 guy did a great job (with the exception of not sloping the membrane) and it was an errant something or other that accidentally poked a hole in the membrane.

Or maybe he's ignorant and apathetic when it comes to building a proper shower.

My vote is that your #1 contractor is #2.

Mongoct and Terriks, I'm going to cut and paste your posts and email them to New Contractor, along with a list of issues and questions my husband and I have (for instance: 1.We want all work permitted/inspected by the city and we want to see proof of that; 2.We are now concerned about Old Contractor's assessment of our subfloor. Our old leaky shower had soaked through in areas of the subfloor and Old Contractor said the wood was not rotten and was safe to build on--we're now wondering if that was a correct assessment; 3. Considering the errors that were made, we are also wondering if Old Contractor used appropriate materials in other parts of the shower. His estimate stated he would use Durock for the shower walls, but how do we know he did?).

Mongoct, re: your comment about Old Contractor: "I think letting him do the work is not wise." I'm not enthusiastic about having him fix his work, but we did pay $15,000 for this bathroom and short of him refunding all our money, I don't think we have any other choice (we are not in the financial position to eat $15,000, and if you have ever sued anybody for this amount of money, you know how difficult it is to find an attorney who will take such a piddling case, and you know it will take years to work its way through the civil court system).

If you all have any other concerns you can think of that we should bring to New Contractor, please continue to post them.

I understand the $$ aspect of it. He will need to be supervised. I'd even recommend taking photos of the steps involved. Remember, it's your house. Your money. Your aggravation.

Do get a new membrane. It's really not wise to try to recycle used membrane. I handle them delicately when installing them new. Never mind the membrane surviving the trauma of a shower pan demolition and then trying to reuse it, hoping that it's undamaged.

The thing to understand is there has still been no proper assessment of why your curb blew apart.

Also know that there's no real way to repair a faulty shower pan. Well, there is one way: you rip out the entire thing and replace it with new material.

So be wary of any patchwork recommendations.

And make sure they tell you why it failed. Proper observation and analysis during demolition will tell the tale. You need to know so it can be corrected the second time around.

Best, Mongo