fly: in through the nose......out through the mouth....find your chi.

Joel's done this a few times, it's really no big deal. Of course if it were MY newly tiled floors, I'd be having a cow. But, it's not so I can be totally chill about it. All will be well! Just be thankful there's a shortstop putterouter, or whatever that was.

(((((flyleft))))))...

Feel better?
Ivette

Fly-- which system did you use?

I do, miraculously, Ivette, even though something just flew in through my nose :) (I didn't see the colon after "fly" in your post, at first :))

I'm SO glad to hear it's not horrifically horrible...What is Joel's preferred method to do so?

Bill, we used ThermoTile -- the construction is wonderful, it must have been my dumb mistake, although until we heard the explanation I was really completely mystified as to how something could have survived all that testing (resistance met the factory resistance numbers every single time and I was *so* careful) and poop out when it came to running the current through it. I'm glad the company is stepping up and helping us, at this point. And also glad that we have a GREAT electrician--one of the tradesguys we got lucky on.

Here is a link that might be useful: so far they're being helpful...

Best of luck to you flyleft. I put ThermoSoft in my kitchen earlier this year - 90 sq ft, (60 + 20 + 10). My testing was going just fine too, and I decided to power up the system during install just to double check it was all working, and popped the GFCI. The 20 ft mat shorted out, and I had to quickly peel up the tiles I had just laid over it. It was just 4 or 5 tiles, so it wasn't too bad, but I feel your pain. It made me physically sick when it happened. Good thing it wasn't the 60 ft mat which was nearly entirely tiled over.

I figured I damaged the wire at some point so I just ordered a new one. I don't have any experience with their customer service, but it sounds like you're getting what you need. Here's hoping that continues.

I have another 60 sf mat awaiting installation in my master bath I'm constructing now. If you get any good installation/testing tips from TS, please pass them along.

Thanks,
Joe

First, I'm a bit concerned over the conversation that you and Ivette are having regarding the fly that flew through your colon and out your nose. Or something like that. I hope it wasn't painful...

Second...Arrgggghhhhh! This truly stinks.

Question...you wrote that you can power up the smaller mat. So now that the GFCI does NOT trip, if you separate the two mats' lead wires where they come into the t-stat, do both mats still show continuity?

If the large mat shows no continuity, then yes, the wire may have completely burned through from the power applications. Get the shortstop and see what it shows. Of course if there is a break it'll be smack dab in the middle of the room, in a place where a floor mat does not make sense, instead of hidden under the tile in a corner behind the toilet where no one will see a tile and grout repair.

But if it still shows that it's whole? It could still be a slightly nicked wire, or it could be something else.

If the continuity does check good, then I'd do more troubleshooting before sawing grout.

Before you rip out any tile, have them check check and check again. Makes sure the GFCI breaker is a GFCI and not an AFCI. Arc faults are a little more twitchy than their older cousins. Low likelyhood, but yes, I've seen it happen once before which is why I mentioned it.

Make sure the GFCI is properly sized for the load. Recheck that the GFCI is indeed wired correctly. Load side, power side, neutral pigtail, yadda yadda.

Again, I'm sure its been checked and rechecked, but again, these are faults that I've discovered over the years.

I'd even pull the GFCI and replace it with a regular non-GFCI breaker just for grins. See if that works.

Only after exhausting every possible avenue and finding an actual fault location with the Shortstop would I start cutting grout.

I'm 3000 miles from you and flyleft, like Bill Clinton...I feel your pain.

sending you a virtual bandaid,

Mongo

codnuggets, misery sure does love company...I'm glad it wasnt; the 60 ft mat in your case, too. If that had been my house, it would have been. I'll share the process as it goes on in case it can help you at all.

mongo, LOL ...now that I've had time to digest your message, I can unfortunately say that I *wish* it was something easier. The electrician and I exhausted all sorts of checks, including cutting the lead wire down to the floor to see if the fault was somewhere easy. But we kept getting zip on the multimeter, whereas the other mat kept testing out right at its right number. The bad mat doesn't even move the needle. I did even take up some bullnose and two edge tiles (they came up cleanly) to see if it might be in that area, between where the mat stopped and the wire made its way over to the vertical. But no.

Thanks for the bandaid, though. Much appreciated. May I ask a question: when it comes to the inevitable outcome, how would *you* go about removing a tile right in the middle of the floor, if you had to? Which of course you never would, but I'm just asking...

fly, fly fly...I'm so sorry :( I think most of us here can understand the disappointment after all the long (and in your case VERY long) hard work and the TLC we've put into our projects. I wanted to put some of this under my bathroom tiles and DH said absolutely not :( I pouted and pouted some more telling him "but everyone else is doing it". He stood his ground and his reasoning was just what happened with yours. I still feel like my bathroom isn't "over the top" without it, but, the 23" Samsung LCD tv is making up for it :) I'm sure the company has dealt with this many times before and it'll be fixed in a jiffy :) Maybe now that you've had a good cry, it doesn't look quite as daunting??
Good luck!
Monica

I'd use a diamond blade on an angle grinder. Make a jig to control your depth of cut if you think shaky hands might come in to play.

Cut out the grout around the perimeter of the tile. If the tiles were small mosaics or small hex tiles, I might be able to pop them out one-by-one as needed.

If the tiles are larger? The safest bet would be to use the grinder to cut the tile into smaller segments, them pry the first few pieces out one by one. If prying didn't work or I felt that prying may cause additional damage, I'd use the grinder to turn a few tiles segments into dust. Yup, simply grind them away.

After prying out a few pieces, or grinding out a suitable work area, I'd use a cold chisel at a low angle and tap lightly with a hammer to separate the remaining tile segments from the thinset.

Much depends on the thinset covering the mat. I'd rather sacrifice a tile or three then cause more damage to the mat and possibly even break the thinset/tile bond on the surrounding tiles by trying to extract the tiles whole.

The better the mat was embedded in thinset, the less likely it is that more damage could occur. If there are voids or honeycombing in the thinset that the mat was set into, that could allow the thinset to fracture and the mat/wires to shift, causing additional damage. I wouldn't want that.

This is a job where you want to be the tortoise instead of the hare. Slow and steady.

Does that make sense?

Mongo

OMG I'm laughing so hard the colon came out MY nose.

Jeez, Flyleft I don't have a freaking clue (as usual) but here is Joel to tell you how he's done it:

Hi Flyleft, Joel here. I wish I were half the hero my Bride believes me to be. Your tile removal method sounds good to me except I would saw the grout around the tile first. Hopefully Bill will read this, I can't think of anyone that could help out more than him. I would think taking your time and being very careful not to damge the mat further is the most important part.

Joel

Exactly. Mongo's hint of marking the diamond blade so as not to go too deep is a good one.

As for finding the right tile, I don't know about this company you got your system from-- this is the first I've heard of them, but both Suntouch and Nuheat offer gizmos that once the power is turned on to the bad mat, they can locate exactly where the break is THROUGH the installed tile.

Bill,

Most places offer the Shortstop, which is what you wrote. Connect it to the wires, it uses an rf signal to help you locate the break. It's usually included for use for free when you buy a repair kit from them.

The repair kits are worth buying, as the splice kit is sort of particular in nature.

Mongo

Flyleft, I wish I had your phone number.

I really feel SOOOOOO BADDDDD about this whole thread. I've been following your posts for years, and I understand the thought, the effort, the angst, the anticipation, the frustration, the elation, the perspiration, the carpel tunnelation, the EVERYTHING that you've put into renovating your home.

I just want you to know that sh!t happens. This time it happened to you. I don't mean that to sound coarse, but hey, the old fighter pilot in me comes to the surface once in a while, and I'm here to simply say that this is not the end of the world.

It's a set back.

It's frustrating as all.

But it's simply part of life.

And it's one of those things that, years from now, you'll be relating your experience to the next generation of DIY remodelers and telling them that "aw, it ain't so bad".

Hang in there girl, husband of girl, and daughter of girl.

The sun shall rise again.

Best, Mongo

Aw gee, you all...my emotions overflow. Only you all would understand the stakes of all this mishegas. At these times, extended family just doesn't get it, nor do non-DIY-maniac friends. I really appreciate the posts and they *do* buoy me up. I think I'll print out your post and save it, mongo, as one of my favorites ever. (And just stop it right now, you're master at so many things and now you want me to believe you're an old fighter pilot?! You're testing my credulity! Nah, actually, of *you* I'd believe it :))

And there are worse things, as the news constantly reminds us. It's just that it was so much work and you're right, mongo, I literally can't do it all over again because my right hand is pretty permanently damaged. I've got trigger thumb in the right thumb now, and some nerve damage that feels like I'm ripping my skin under my thumb every time I try to stretch out my hand to hold onto something. Not to mention the ongoing carpal tunnel numbness in thumb and first two fingers. Very odd and disconcerting for a former concert pianist, not to be able to take manual dexterity for granted...it's really never been an issue for me and now my grip gives out, I can't turn pages of a magazine without giving me shivers up my spine from the trigger thumb popping back and forth...That re-edging was a project that will never happen again. Thank *goodness* I just re-edged all the tiles I had, just in case. We have lots of extras sitting outside, nice and straight. And again, there are worse things. monica, you're right; time has eased the shock and I can think about it without --well, almost, now that I just really thought about it again--without the major angst of two days ago. (and you know, if I had a tv in the bathroom, I'd end up having it fall into the tub and then I'd *really* have some shock to ease...)

We'll also read and study the posts on removing the tile. Of course these are 17-5/8" x what is it--8-15/32" or something like that? Not tiny tiles. I'll learn from your expertise while trying to keep a "beginners mind" and keep hope alive for a clean fix.

Bill, they've really been a stand-up group so far; the only thing we've had to pay for is shipping for the Shortstop ($15; probably more than it needed to be but not that bad). The repair kit and 10' of extra lead wire (for the electrician to splice back on) were free. They're sending a booklet and such, too, but I did go to the Suntouch website, since you mentioned it, and found some good support material to use as well.

Joel, thanks for your post, you modest thing...I've seen the work you do and I know the truth :)

When the faultfinder (makes me laugh just typing it--I have in mind something like that nagging wife-bot Harry Mudd got stuck with on the original Star Trek :)) gets here and we actually do it, I'll post our progress. Thanks so much for your all's commiseration, support, and advice.

Tried posting a link to a repair pdf on the "warmishly yours" website, but gardenweb blocks them as spam.

And, yup, you caught me in a fib. I didn't get to fly jets, it was my daughter who was actually the fighter pilot. Fortunately, she let me come along with her on one of her flights:

Mongo-- It's tough to tell from that photo. What'd you fly, and where were you stationed? (I was a boatswains mate qualified as an LSE)

It's amazing how young they're taking recruits in these days. Especially generous of her to let you play dressup and everything :)

And I'll go the W.Y. website to get more information. At least our daughter sees me doing constant research, that's good. She has learned that these things don't just come by writing a check. Although there's plenty of that involved...

Bill,

That picture is from when I was flying A-10s, then I was stationed at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson.

My daughter was nine months old.

Didja catch the Pats game? I almost missed it, I was thinking it was tomorrow.

I sure did. I even wanted the Pats to win-- even though I was wearing my GIANTS shirt!! I was so conflicted!! LMAO I was getting ticked earlier during the news, when the local sportscaster was going to some of the local sports bars and people were saying "Yeah, by the half, they'll have the game in the bag and they can take their first string out." By the half I was yelling-- IN YOUR FACE!! LOL

As for the plane, I'm glad I didn't guess-- I would have been way off! I was figuring Tomcats or Phantoms! It was next to impossible from just that little piece of fuselage!

DAMN Mongo!! You're cute too!!!!!!

Ivette

Aw, gee Ivette...yer makin' me blush...

And flyleft, be careful you don't let your daughter see you do too much of the work and too much of the research. That might be why my kids are dreaming of one day living in a yurt!

Bill, I was pretty happy that Eli had a decent game. I spend a fair amount of time in Manhattan, so I listen to a lot of the NY sports talk on 660 when driving. Those shows got me following the Giants...sort of. But Eli? I don't ever think he's going to be a great quarterback, but I just hope that he doesn't end up as a stinker. He's a guy I root for.

The Pats? Here's to them going 19-0 to put a cork in Don Shula's mouth! A couple of tough teams in the AFC that can beat the Pats, though. The playoffs should be fun.

I've been a Giants fan every since I was a little tyke. My father belonged to the New Haven Exchange Club, and every year when they'd install new club officers, they'd have an annual banquet, at which there'd always be sports celebs. This one particular year (I believe it was 1965) my father was being installed as president, so my whole family went to the banquet. The celebs that year were Y.A. Tittle and Andy Robistelli. They gave me a Duke football that they both autographed. The rest is history. MAtter of fact, the best play I've EVER seen in pro football was the 1990 NFC Playoffs-- Leonard Marshall blew thru the 49ers line and BURIED Joe Montana's face in the turf-- to the point that when Joe got up, he had turf stuck all over in his face mask! NO ONE ever did that to Montana's 49ers.... 'Ceptin the Giants!! The ONLY thing that pissed me off about them is they waited to win their first superbowl until 4 months after my dad passed away. He was just as rabid a fan as I am. :-)

DAMN Mongo!! You're cute too!!!!!!

Yeah, I just had a flashback of Maverick from Top Gun. Either him or Keith Urban...(and BTW, what does Nicole Kidman have that is so danged special that both of those men have married her???)

Fly, I'm so sorry. I'm not sure I understand what all is causing your difficulty, but I know one thing -- if no one died and your house is still standing (have to throw that one in, those who haven't survived a hurricane have no clue how traumatic it is) you will be OK when all is said and done.

That said, go ahead and cry. It's your party and you can cry if you want to. But then do as the military says: drink water, drive on. Good luck to you.

Susan

UPDATE: the "Fluke" (seriously, that's the name of the brand) fault-finder arrived and of course we can't wait until next week, when our electrician can come, to find out where the fault is, so we hooked it up and discovered it's right in front of the toilet in the WC at a turn. Not so awful, but still visible. There are two tiles there and it's under one or the other. We'll probably take up the one (take our time doing so, which is better done before he comes) and see if it's there, but let our electrician do the fix/splice.

btw, LOL about the yurt, mongo :) They're actually kind of cool, IMO.

Fly:
I've been following along your sad saga, and telling myself "there, but for the grace of God, go I" as we've DIY'ed a couple radiant heat floors. So far they've worked fine.

I had one thought, in regards to your fear of slicing through the wire when you pry up your tile. If the fault-finder can trace the wire so exactly that you know where the bend is, can you use it to trace out the route of the wire on the tile, and then, when you saw, cut between the wires so you don't run the risk of nicking them? At worst you'd chew up a little of the matting, but that doesn't affect the current.

weedy, thanks for your suggestion. The fault-finder doesn't work that way, unfortunately. It tells how many feet in the fault is, and then we divide that by 5.6 (number of feet of wire per foot of mat) and we have the approximate area where the fault is.

The wires are pretty deep down (I skimcoated over them with thinset first), so I think with a combination of the jig on the grinder (my hands do get jumpy now that they're so damaged from all this dang tile work) and some very careful dremel use on the groutlines and *taking my time*, I'll be able to make my way forward. I just hope the fault-finder is correct and we get it on the first try. It's *just* inside one tile, so we'll take that out, but then again within the range of distance the fault-finder claims we might have to take out the other tile too. And of course we have to take out bullnose as well, first.

It's the project of the day...please send good energies...

I wish I was anywhere else in my life right now.

Not anywhere else in the world, of course, just anywhere else in my life.

This is so darn scary.

My ongoing journal:

Well, I love chiseling off tile, it turns out...in between the times when I'd just get agita at what I was doing...

We did find a nick...in a place where the thinset came up down to the wire all by itself (there were three places where that happened) without my touching it. I must say I had very good coverage...wondering if I can maybe skip taking up all the thinset before I put a new tile down, and maybe just epoxy a tile down on the thinset instead? mongo, I hope you read this...I know it's not kosher, but would it work? There's a lot of thinset there and a lot of possibility for problems. I was thinking of very carefully random orbit sanding it off if I *have* to take it off, but what about using a thinner epoxy instead?

I'm glad you found the nick after removing only one tile! Hopefully it will be all downhill (in a good way!) from here.

I wouldn't use a ros, but instead I'd scrap away at the thinset with a firm putty knife, or a cold chisel. I'd want total control, and the chisel would give me that. I'd be nervous about hitting a wire with the ros.

I'd run it at a low angle and try to scrap, little by little, a bit of the thinset height away.

I've never done it with porcelain, but with a natural stone tile I have had at the back of the tile with a diamond pad on a grinder to reduce the thickness of the tile.

As to the epoxy...I'm not sure how it would bind to the chiseled away thinset. I'd first want to reinforce the thinset. Might have better luck painting some epoxy on the thinset as a "primer" to penetrate into the thinset, then epoxy the tile to the cured "primer."

Sorry I can't be more definitive, thankfully that's a road I've not had to travel.

firm putty knife, o.k. Our chisels, esp. one, need some re-sharpening after the Porcelain Event :)

Good point about applying epoxy to the thinset first and letting it cure--I had actually thought about that, because of mosaics. If I tried to reduce the thickness of a tile, I'd have to have one of those pads that's recessed in the center for use on flat surfaces--I can't see thinning an 8.5x17 effectively with a regular grinder blade...my hand starts hurting just imagining it...

Still waiting on our electrician to come and see if indeed we *did* find *the* nick, lisa...it feels like a little nick, but we won't know if it's the one until we power it up after the splice. I could use some dumb luck right about now--thanks for the good wishes.

Yes, for reducing the thickness of a tile, it's a diamond PAD, not a diamond BLADE.

Give your wrists a rest by giving this job to your husband.

Obviously, you'll have to remove a bit of thinset depth to allow you to bury the splice itself.

Are you up for taking pictures of the repair process? It'd make a nice thread.

Mongo

Hey mongo,

Unfortunately, I'm the one in the house who has to do this (he can do a lot, but not detailed careful stuff) because DH had a birth injury that has permanently affected his motor control. He's incredible in what he can do--it's like working in a stiff wind on a ship, if you can imagine, every day, and he can still do mechanics work on his rather dear bicycles, for instance--but most kinds of fine-finish work (except those for which he can use a power tool, like cutting a very thin piece of wood on a table saw with a jig and such) are my department. I know he feels bad about what's happened to my right hand and arm, but I did bring it on myself by choosing to do it rather than opting for leaving the regular edges...

I'll see about the repair process documentation...

Need I say it?

A

R

G

H

The little nick I found wasn't it. The electrician had a smart way to find out without going to the trouble of doing a splice and then testing...and he found out it wasn't the spot.

So basically we have to denude at least the whole 8.5x17, and possibly 8.5x34. I want to be somewhere else.

Fly, gosh darnit! It's never easy is it? :( I'm sorry that wasn't the bad spot. What exactly do you mean by "denude"? And when you say you have to "denude" the entire 8.5x17, I hope that's INCHES or this denuding process is less work than it sounds like it might be :o
I read about your husband's birth injury. Does it have a name? If it's something you'd rather not share, I understand. The reason I'm asking is because David has essential tremors. I'm not sure when it started but he's had it as long as I've known him (31 years). The more detailed the work, the worse he shakes. Or if "all eyes" are on him he'll shake worse. It's in his wrists and hands. His handwriting is horrible. It's just been in the last 2 or 3 years that we were able to put a name to what his problem was (thanks to a newspaper article and my neurologist) He takes a medication for it now and it's much better z(as is his handwriting). Not completely gone but better. Like you said about your DH, it's incredible what David can do with this problem. He's able to do fine detail work that you'd think would be impossible.
Monica

Monica, thanks...yes it is inches, but every inch is not only irritating but nerve-wracking.

And re your DH's tremors--Dh read what you posted and said "hm, that's really interesting--can you ask her what the medication is?" He says it was just a birth injury and it was much worse when he was younger, so this is evidently way better than it had been. We're always on the lookout for something to effect a complete recovery, though, so any links or leads would be most appreciated--it's very kind of you to share his story and progress--I'm happy to hear it just for itself :)

Whew! Inches is MUCHO better than that feet I was thinking it was :o And "denude"?? First time I've heard of that word. I hope the process is as painless as possible.

There are several meds, and it's just a matter of finding one that works, but what David is taking for his ETs is Primidone. It's generic for Mysoline. It's a seizure medication. Here is the website for the International Essential Tremor Foundation. I really don't know when he developed this. It could have been from birth. His parents thought it had something to do with a very high fever when he was 7 but he has siblings with the same thing. I think David, and probably your husband, have had to work so hard to overcome/compensate this that they probably excel in their abilities. That would be great if this medication could help your husband :) Our neuro said that the ET will never be completely alleviated with meds and will most likely worsen with age but right now he's better than I've ever seen him :)
Monica

Here is a link that might be useful: IEFT

Hm, I thought I typed a reply to this--must have closed when it was still in preview--sorry--

Thanks monica--we'll look these up. I know he can't take a beta blocker because his resting pulse is already in the 40s...I'm afraid he'd keel over and die if they slowed that much further!

And yes, I always say that he's so incredibly able despite the "high winds" I describe he's working in, if the winds stopped, he could be a surgeon. I know when I have the least bit of shake I'm a huge klutz.

"denude" is a great word :)

Chin up, Flyleft. You've come so far, and been so strong, and persevered through so much, and been so brave that this little problem will prove to be nothing in the long run.

I haven't been posting, but if it makes you feel any better, I lost an brand new, uninsured Toto Neorest when my workers dropped the box it came in, and some Loewen windows came yesterday, a month late, and two of the three were defective. The tile guy disappeared for a month because he did not have a big enough saw for our tiles and was waiting for it to go on sale. We've had to redo so many things that it's become a standing joke. The beautiful floor for our bedroom never came because they actually had no stock, and no way of getting it, only a beautiful sample. The surprise structural issues only took 5 months to resolve. And so on.

Oh yes, and I'm now on high blood pressure medication for the first time. And I tore a ligament in my right knee in an accident like the one that killed the billionaire contractor in Wisconsin last week. But that's the way it goes.

Still, there is so much to be grateful for, and a beautiful bathroom will give you years of pleasure. I know as soon as I step into my, now installed, but still covered new tub and see one of the Elgin Marbles placed on the wall of my new study, the pain will be forgotten.

The truly unlucky one is the construction worker I'm sure you read about who fell 30 stories the other day just down the block. And of course, many years ago my brother as a construction lawyer was involved with Willow Island, the most deadly construction accident in US history.

Not to be morbid, but meditative instead, our little woes connect us with those who built this great city. Just near here is the Holland Tunnel, whose brilliant young designer, Clifford Holland, died of exhaustion two days before breaking through to NJ, leaving behind four young daughters. Nearby is also the former headquarters of the Roebling company that built the Brooklyn Bridge. During its construction, Washington Roebling was paralyzed by the bends. Near that is the street named for John Ericsson, one of the most influential mechanical engineers of all time, who designed the USS Monitor in the Civil war. He had been permanently embittered when a poorly designed gun, foolishly added by his chiseling partner, blew up on another brilliant ship design of his and killed 8 people, including the Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy.

So we are part, you and I, in our little ways, of the glorious and tragic tradition of those who cared to make material things more perfect --as a way of making the human spirit a little more perfect.

So, chin up!

Frank

Argh, what an abundance of drags! I hadn't heard about that contractor--just read about it now. How sad and ironic. That must have *hurt* when you fell, but that can sure let you know you're lucky to have avoided worse...did you slip between rafters? Always makes me a bit concerned when either one of us goes up there...

And the construction travails: that *is* an impressive series of seemingly coincidental occurrences...I joked that the house must have been built on native burial ground and ever since then 10 y.o. DD is using that to explain anything that happens--she forgets where something is, etc. Should have kept my lip ZIPPED...

I do love your perspective, though, esp. with all the supporting documentation :). I think I'll forward it to my DH :) Onward and upward!