In my experience male contractors have little experience working with women as equals much less taking orders from them. They often only know relationsips with women to be based on emotions like anger or lust. Be glad they're arguing with you.

Hi,
My husband and I were the GCs of our build. My husband pretty much refused to get involved with any of the interior stuff after he told the plumber not to put a sink in the laundry room and caught hell for it. I learned to just listen to the contractors' advice and then give them the old, "yeah, that's a good point, thank you for pointing that out but the pros really outweigh the cons on this one for me, so I want to go for it." Then, before they respond, go "Thanks!" and walk away!
Our electrician is the only one that really forced his opinion. He asked what kind of light I wanted, warm or white. I told him warm, he ordered and installed white. His was the right choice but still..... he also stood there while I met with other contractors, without me asking him to, so he could make sure I "wasn't getting taken for a ride". The carpenter and plumber got a kick out of it and referred to him as my "other husband".
Not all of them were like that. Most were really great. Hang in there and show them that you're appreciative of their experience-based advice about 2 seconds before rejecting it. Good luck!

Jeez, I must be leading a charmed life. We met the electrical contractor for the first time when we did our walkthrough. By the end of the session, he had offered me a job when we moved there because he thought he could use my organizational skills to keep his operation straight.

At some point when we were doing all of these walkthroughs, I caught myself in what I call my "field marshal" mode. I thought "Uh oh, am I coming across as pushy to these guys?" I stopped, took a breath and said to the guys,"I'm sorry for being so brusque." They kinda looked at me & the GC finally said, "We don't know what you're saying to us. We don't use those big words in SC." Then, everyone laughed.

I haven't encountered what the OP has working with the subs & suppliers. OTOH, I've been in a male dominated field for 40 years. Perhaps, I don't even notice the cr@p, anymore. (shrug) Sorry your having such a tough time, gardengirl53.

Jo Ann

P.S. My cabinet maker used to be a metallurgist & we get along like gangbusters. I call him a blacksmith & he makes these wonderful geek engineer jokes that just crack me up. He's doing my requested door style for the 1st time & plans to call is after us.

i get along really well with the subs. -except the tile setter who is a piece of work. according to him "ya can't do gray (grout) on white subways". he stood there arguing with me back and forth. at first i was really upset until i remembered whose house we were standing in. now, it's just kind of fun dealing with him. our last conversation went kind of like this:
tile guy: ya can't do dat. we don't do gray grout on white.
ME: (smiling and speaking in overly polite -yet raised, high-pitched voice) well of COURSE i can! -okay, we're done here. i'll come back and check your work later. thanks!
-he stands there dumbfounded as i walk away.

i sort of feel sorry for the guy. now he does his best to avoid me. dh says he's afraid of me. serves him right. who the hell does he think he is? i LOVE our trim and finish carpenter and cabinet maker and installers. and i tell them so. but DO NOT screw with me. i am a retired professional who used to effectively terrify an entire staff single handedly (it was my job). nothing gives me greater pleasure than to send chills down the spines of unsuspecting sub contractors with poor attitudes. reminds me of the good 'ole days.

so the next time someone gives you a problem just remember who's in charge. -that would be YOU (damn it).

I haven't experienced that, thank goodness. Hubby is way too busy with work; he only gets involved when I say he has to (to help make a decision), so this house has been mostly "my work". Our GC has only ever called me, never hubby.

I figured out awhile back (in my life anyway), that you usually get what you expect out of people. I went into this build knowing I knew what I wanted and could get it, within reason, etc. However, when it comes to anything car-related, I don't have good expectations and can't seem to even fake it, so that department is definitely handed off to hubby.

Try deciding ahead of time exactly how you'd like the exchange between you and whoever to proceed and only think on that....try not to imagine the negative scenarios. Anyway, it helps me.....

Good luck.

I feel your pain! DH had retired from the military and we moved from CA to SW Louisiana and built a home. What a lesson in male chauvinism!

Every other sentence from GC and subs was "tell your husband this" or "tell your husband that". DH told them on numerous occasions in my presence, that I would be their point of contact and to direct their queries to me.

Still old habits die hard, if ever!

Just get all changes in writing. Do listen to professional advice and then make an informed decision.

I received lots of great advice from this forum, for which I'm so very grateful!

Good luck on your build and remember the GC and subs are working for you!

I'm not saying that some of the above isn't due to chauvanism, but much of the nuts and bolts technical details discussed with trades are going to be above the head of many of both women and men today. There just isn't much of a "handyperson" culture in homes anymore. Leaky faucet? Call a plumber. Need a room painted? Call a painter? Many people just aren't hand on enough with the inner workings of a home to be able to understand why something they are asking for isn't practical or won't work. It's not just women. And many trades people are really good at their job, but aren't good at communicating. So, you have an impasse with them needing to explain to someone why something they're talking about isn't the right choice, but not being able to effectively do so without seeming condescending or unintelligible.

And, in this day and age of everyone's tightened budgets, it's the rare tradesperson who won't mention that an approach is going to cost the homeowner more money. That's not a bad thing, it's just that it's also the very rare homeowner who has the champagne budget to go with that champagne taste and they're used to making mental compromises before they even begin the conversation. For instance, if the contract specified X dollars for tile and it was based on ceramic and a traditional square pattern, most consumers don't understand that it's substantially more to go with natural stone and a diagonal pattern, so the contractor is mentally bracing himself to hear the resistance against the price increase before he even begins the conversation. He probably has to pinch himself that someone will OK a price increase without substantial drama!

My husband and I are GC our build. We are down to the last month. In general, I have not run into this problem. At least I am not AWARE of this problem. I do portray the little lady often, smile, low cut shirts, do my hair, and bring cookies. It works well. I do have an employee that is a big burly biker type that is nicknamed Bear. He deals with all problems for me. But when there is a question, subs call me. I have run into some that think I'm ridiculous for my choices (trim tried to talk me into smaller trim when we ran into a problem with the rosettes, instead I went an inch bigger, I love trim... they said it was overkill, too much, etc... But when they installed it they told me how beautiful it was) My cabinet maker tried (and succeeded) to talk me into having one set of cabs with doors instead of drawers. But I think those people would say those things to me man or woman. All in all, I've been VERY pleased with our build and if it wasn't seriously the wettest year on record in this area, and my subs weren't getting stuck and requiring tow trucks to get out of my lot, we'd be done by now.

"And many trades people are really good at their job, but aren't good at communicating. So, you have an impasse with them needing to explain to someone why something they're talking about isn't the right choice, but not being able to effectively do so without seeming condescending or unintelligible. "

So very very true. These trades do what they do everyday and it's difficult for many of them to find the patience and words to explain their position. Often they are right. The question I asked most while on-site speaking to trades was "What do you think?".

On the flip side, many trades like to whine about anything requiring alittle blood circulation in the brain. If they snap at you, make sure you stand your ground and speak at their level. I've dropped a couple of strategic F-bombs. They don't mind that. LOL

I'm not saying that some of the above isn't due to chauvanism, but much of the nuts and bolts technical details discussed with trades are going to be above the head of many of both women and men today.

Much of it is also above the heads of the people in the trades themselves!

Some are good. Some are really good, but far too many are borderline incompetent at best. We had some of them on our build. And don't get me started on the illegals who have virtually no education and can't read a print or comprehend modern building methods, but will work for peanuts. and have no idea what OSHA is or means, thereby driving qualified Americans out of the trades.

Yes GG, it chauvinism, especially from the subs who aren't the brightest bulbs in the bunch, and from illegals raised in a male dominated culture of machismo.

And that's my male perspective.

As I was reading this over I guess it's more arguing when things don't go smoothly. May times I'll ask them what they think and appreciate the advise. It's when I have to address something that needs to be rectified. If my son-in-law or my husband say they are unhappy with something it seems to carry more weight and they are more likely to address the issue without an argument. I guess I really need to do what Kate says and remember I'm the one who's in charge "damn it". I have to not worry if they think I'm neurotic cause long after they are gone I'll still be dealing with what I don't like and they'll be on their merry way. Thanks for all the input everyone, I am so exhausted by all this I needed some support!

I just want to point out that although the contractors are experienced experts in their respective fields, they too, can be taught a new trick every now and then. I had some design ideas that just about killed my finish carpenter to carry out. He later admitted to liking some of it and recommending it to other clients. I'm a computer geek engineer, I know next to nothing about building. So, verbal descriptions rarely did anything for me and I wasn't on site until after work, granted my 4 year old was cooperating... I had all of them using the cameras on their phones, texting pictures, asking their teenaged kids to e-mail the invoices. It was beautiful! I was amazed at first by all that faxing, ugh.

OMG - You are living my same nightmare! So far the only person that I can get along with is the tile contractor that I HIRED. He was not one that my builder uses.
He is WONDERFUL...Very much a perfectionist.
He even asked me how I put up w/the subs on the job. He found them to be rude, ignorant,disrespectful and just a pita ! HMM, so maybe it isn't just me. Or maybe becoz he;s not a "regular" on builds they are rude to him too.
Everyone from the electrician, painter, contrete contractor, etc. does what the hell they want. They don't really seem to care what I say or want! It's like they are building a spec house not a custom home.

I do believe it has something to do with me being a woman. They aren't gonna take order or requests, or questions from ME.

I'm at the end of my rope here. Last week, spent time w/concrete guy, pull up to house and see that he did what the builder wanted not what I asked/told him I wanted. I asked him why it wasnt what I told him the day before, oops he forgot! He's not gonna change it, it will cost too much money. Too bad !! he screwed up not me..I only needed a little extra concrete. I only wanted to make the walk curve and alitle further centered. Builder left this up to me, yet I didnt' get what I wanted.

I'm ready to put a for sale sign on the house..

I have a plumber friend who has been one for many years, long before I was in a trade. He was telling me that the way he lays out and preps for the d.w.v. rough out before the pour,( slab on grade construction), was taught to him by a helper he had hired. SHE saw a more efficient way of doing this that he still utilizes today. She has gone on to get her builders license and is building homes in Orange County.

Jeannie, that is exactly what I mean. You wanted more curve to your sidewalk and to have it a little more aligned for a more pleasing appearance. I can understand that completely! You ask him what happened and to him it's no big deal "he forgot". Your right, I am living the same nightmare. All this freaking confrontation is killing me. These aren't "spec" houses, their OUR houses. Sierra, your plumber friend was a wise man.

It isn't because you're a woman.

It likely has nothing to do with your gender and likely has everything to do with your lack of experience in construction and how you treat your builder and the subs.

My best and favorite customers during my long career as a builder were women. A few remain my close personal friends...But only those women who really knew what they wanted, let me determine if what they wanted was technically possible, respected my professional opinion when it was not, and then allowed us to mutually reconsider and explore alternatives when we had to.

But even for those female customers I did not care for, once they made up their mind even after my input, it was always 'aye aye' and I did it their way.

Doesn't mean they ended up being right. Most times they were sorry they chose what they did despite my advice. Sometimes they ended up being happy with their choices, sometimes not....but at least it was their ultimate decision not mine.

All that said, mutual respect is the key to the relationship.

Don't try to tell the builder his job and he generally won't argue with you even if you don't know yours.

And gender really has nothing to do with it.

Are you demanding the builder do it 'your way of the highway'? If so, expect to be shown disrespect and the highway yourself.
-----------

But maybe I'm different.

I come from a family where female members have always been highly respected, highly educated, in the work force, and often earned more than their male spouses or couterparts. My own wife always earned more than me.

My favorite female customer was my own sister.

A medical doctor who lived in New England and bought, renovated and resold homes built in the 1700s.

I helped her shop for properties, renovated them for her, and was in every way her partner.

She didn't always get it right when it came to construction decisions, but then again, I often tried to steer her clear of properties I considered to be a 'dog' that she bought anyway based on her own keen sense, and some of those turned out to be some of the best money-makers we ever encountered.

The key was mutual respect.

And that respect wasn't gender specific.
-------------------------

Respect your builder and subs and he and they will respect you.

If you have an attitude that 'it is my money and I will spend it as I please', expect to be treated with the disrespect it shows to all....despite your gender.

"It likely has nothing to do with your gender and likely has everything to do with your lack of experience in construction and how you treat your builder and the subs."

This is the 2nd house I have built. So I do have "some" knowledge. My last house (built w/a husband at the time) went pretty smooth. Builder & I and his subs are still on very good terms. In fact, I have continued to use one of his guys for over 10 years for m&r.

I think for me - I have been too easy going and allowing the builder to talk me into things that I really didn't want. I just went along with his suggestions/changes. Actually, I think he did these things to lower his cost, at my expense.

I have never had the " it is my money and I will spend it as I please" attitude.

BUT - From here on out that is probably what I need to do. Hard ball w/these guys is coming! I have been too easy for too long.
I tell the electrian I want a wall sconce - he says - I dont' need one. I need more lights in my closet - again, I need that. I want more exterior lights, again - I don't need them. I want my ceilings painted - why, no one paints ceilings anymore.

I'm NOT THIER WIFE - I'm their customer.

My spec was way too open ended - too little detail and now anything & everything I want is $$$$.

I value input from the builder and subs - since yes, they have more experience than I will ever have. I ask for their opinions. But, if I find that I want things done differently it's a battle.

There were many items I told the builder I wanted in my home before we finalized the contract, he was always saying it's not a problem, yes we can do that. But, he didnt' put the items in my contract, and now I'm paying extra or I'm not getting them done.

I have had 3 of my hired professionals tell me flat out - that they dont' understand how I deal with all this. So, it's not all me !!

Jeannie, we are so on the same page. I feel just like you. I have been to nice and not played hardball enough because of the confrontation issues. I have treated all of the subs and the contractor with nothing but respect and have never had the attitude it's my money. What I have meant when I spoke of money is that if I make a mistake or decision and it has to be fixed, I will have the integrity to say "It's my mistake" and suck it up and pay to have it fixed rather than just live with it. On the other side of the coin, if they make a mistake or don't do something they should have done, I shouldn't have to be badgered into accepting something they have done incorrectly.

Please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do. Tell me my options, even your opinions, what the upside and downside is of my choices, the cost of the choices, and let me make an intelligent decision based on what is best for me!!

If I want a second sconce or an extra light or painted ceiling, what is it to them? PLEASE, as Jeannie said, we are not your wives, we are your CUSTOMERS.

Jeannie, very well spoken.

Communication is the biggest factor in a smooth build and it needs to be reflected by both parties. No one should "tell" the other what to do or state "that's how it's going to be done", it should be discussed with open minds with the builder having the customers best interests intact including advising when a customer wants an install that's unsafe, to come up with a viable solution, or if the builder sees a more efficient, cost effective way of performing a task without comprimising the outcome in favor of the customer's wishes. Working together as a team rather than causing friction between both parties.

You have to learn how to deal with different types of people.

Some people listen to you, explain what can and
can't be done..and why. (the why is very important)
You meet at a common ground.
these are the easy to deal with folks.

Some people can't understand anything other that what they know how to do.
can't understand and/or won't understand
these are the difficult folks.

with the former they do what you want or you meet on common ground.
the latter make reasons not to do what
you want and do what they can.

y'all get mad when I say that you have to choose
your battles..but I've seen that its my money attitude
backfire many many times.

good post manhattan.

this kind of reminds me of the pav threads.
cite all the proven reasons why not to put pav's
and some bozo still says..but it cools off the attic.

and best of luck OP.
sometimes I want to scream too.

As a man, I got some of this "attitude" from my subs as well. I usually met them during work hours, showing up in my Luxury SUV and khakis, walking the job site in dress shoes. Almost all of them treated me like a rube... then I'd ask them technical questions above their head or bring up potential code issues or potential install problems. That usually level set for them that I wasn't just writing checks, I was learning about every step in building a home, well before it was going to happen on the jobsite. My Father-in-law was on site for most of the build, he said that every contractor asked him how many homes I'd built to know so much, he just laughed and told them that I'm pretty good with the internet.

And yes, I told a few contractors that it was my way or the highway, but never on an issue with worker safety or code issues. Color, finish material, etc. And especially where HVAC ducts were ran in the basement ceiling. Or when they were holding up my progress by not showing up.

It's tough out there sometimes...
I'm not building a house but we currently own an old home, so do have occasional trades people out doing their thing, etc. It even is the same when dealing with fixing your car, etc.

Being a gay man I run into similar issues sometimes...they think because I'm gay I must have no clue and they can scam me, or pull the wool over my eyes, or do whatever. It does happen and I suspect it's the same when those same unscrupulous and chauvanistic contractors/sub contractors are dealing with women.

It's the same with the car...I've had several car mechanics try to pull the wool over my eyes or give me several different quotes hoping I'd be the "typical" gay male that had no idea. Well, my partner sure knows cars so he saved me a couple times...I finally found a mechanic who was very, very respectful, honest, and a good mechanic at that.

You just have to be careful and use your intuition if you feel like someone is being like that. Your intuition is usually right.

If you think working with Subs is difficult, try working with a "I know it all" husband. I'll agree, he has been in the architect/construction business for over 50 years, but he is stuck in the 70's when it comes to details and decorating that I want to do. I can't begin to count the times he said, "It just won't work"....but never tells me why...it is just "You won't understand".

I swore when we built this last house, never again!!...but we are back in the planning stages of doing it again...or I should say HE is.... I want to buy a ready-built home, but he thinks he can build one being the contractor himself (of course, he will not be using a tool), and this one took 3 years to complete.....and I want this next one (if we do build) completed in my lifetime!!!! He drew all the plans and said I could pick out all of the inside stuff, but when I say I want something, he finds fault in it all.....UGH!!! You all could have it worse!!!...and I am sure I will be ready to say, "My way or the highway"....but I don't know which of us will be using that highway!

Don't be so sensitive; it's not because you're women; it's because you're not men.

Phoggie, that does sound horrible to deal with. I feel sorry for you :(. Macy all I can say to you is with my head shaking, Macy, Macy, Macy.

I felt like I ran into a little of that but was unsure if it was because I was female. Maybe some of the time. Generally I think contractors get very used to dealing with semi-crazed people who are building homes.
Another interesting point from talking to my builder - he said he just wouldn't do certain things because if he ended up getting stuck with the house (in most cases the house is the builders till closing at the end of construction) he wanted to make sure he could sell it. If an client asks for too many crazy custom things that could cost him money in that scenario. They also have to worry about inspections and their reputation.
Personally I wish my contractor had spoken up more. He was very reluctant to help me make decisions because he didn't want me coming back on him mad.
Which is probably another reason they don't just cave on all requests - they've probably heard "but why did you let me do that" plenty times even after being assured that's what the client wanted.
Lots of semi-irritation people out there, they've probably all been burned.

LMAO macv !!

We are in the choosing a builder stage right now. I already had one builder tell me "that's the way we have always done it". I actually had one GC say there were some things I knew more about than him. : ) I gave him the gardenweb website.