Hi Sandy--

Obviously I don't have a CC :) but I just wanted to offer you this in your decision making process: how inclined are you to make a mess of your oven?

I opted for a manual-clean range for the reasons you state but I am also pretty careful about avoiding messes, i.e. not letting cheese drip off a pizza or letting things splatter. I don't feel like I am inhibited cooking-wise, either, I guess it just fits our personality.

If things do get messy I find the best approach is to clean it up quickly, i.e. at first opportunity. I find it only gets hard to clean when you bake the dirt on time after time. I would guess most oven interiors have a similar enamel-on-steel surface.

Again, I think what I am saying is fairly vendor agnostic.

-Stooxie

Thanks stooxie....I'm not particularly messy. If I do happen to have cheese slide off or a pie drip over a little, I clean it up right away anyway.

Oven "frying" or roasting chickens sometimes splatter on the walls of the oven, but other than that I'm not cooking things in the oven that make huge messes.

I did see that Blue Star sticks to manufacturing their ranges manual clean only because they feel the range lasts longer.

What do you use to clean things that manage to bake on the sides during roasting?

I didn't worry too much when I was spending less money on a range...well, maybe I never actually thought about it much at all. Now that we are contemplating a pricey range, it IS something to think about.

My husband said (being an engineer he gets very technical at times), that solder melts at about 500 degrees F, so it makes me think about all those soldered computer boards and electrical connections. (Hope I'm spelling solder right).

It is also aggravating to have things break down in the kitchen so I do my best to avoid situations that cause that.

Sandy

Hi Sandy,

To answer your question, I dunno, I haven't had anything get stuck on. Meaning, everything I've tried to clean has pretty much come right off. So far I have just used a sponge and a little dish soap to clean the inside. At worst I just use the green side of the Scotch Brite sponge and stuff comes right off. I don't think BS uses any magical coating. The internal oven enamel coating is black (with white fleck) so it "looks" good pretty easily!

I've sworn off self-cleaning from oven brands like GE and Kitchen Aid, although I'm happy with those brands in general. There's no magic: you heat the oven interior to twice it's "normal" range and materials are going to break down faster. It's an inescapable fact no matter which brand you use.

My feeling is that an expensive range should not have to be babied and, by extension, it shouldn't have to LOOK like it has babied either. I just can't get my head around the notion that an expensive range must look brand new all day, every day. Like a Ferrari.

From the pictures, it looks like the CC has a pretty dark enamel as well. Good for not showing every spec.

-Stooxie

Stooxie: Please do be careful with the green scotchbrite on the Bluestar oven interior. I managed to scratch my Bluestar oven floor pretty badly using evil green pad. I would think that would go for any oven interior.

Buffalotina, I had to LOL a bit at the "evil green pad." It's true, those things are deceptively nasty. I'll keep that in mind, though, and will definitely minimize. Thanks!

-Stooxie

If I had a Ferrari it would look well used. I'm not obsessed with car washing either. I keep my home clean but am not a fanatic about perfection. I buy something to use and enjoy. If I'm obsessed with spotless and shiny then that is time not enjoying.

What I love about cast iron in general such as my cookware and the range grates is they get better with use. They never look pristine but won't ever look skanky either, with proper care. More like well used and well loved. That said, I wouldn't live with layers of dirty grease on them either. A quick wipe or swish with gentle saoap keeps things sanitary.

I've found with self clean ranges in general is that after a number of clean cycles the oven interior looks pretty worn. I'd rather see a patina than the aging that the hot clean cycle brings on.

The only babying I think a high quality piece of equipmnet should get is to not stress it with out of the ordinary things. 900 degrees or above seems pretty stressful in my opinion. Apple pie baking is soothing.

I wonder if Bar Keepers Friend is too harsh.

sandy: My vote would be to go for the self clean. Not for the self clean feature, but for the rotisserie. I know you mentioned it isn't high on the priority list, but I have a feeling that if you have it you will end up enjoying using it more than you may think. Speaking for myself, the rotisserie is the one feature that would make me consider a CC over a BS if I was currently in the market for such a beast.

Bar Keeper's Friend is oxalic acid and works very nicely on many things. As a powder, though, it does scratch. I really only use it on my stainless steel to remove blueing or rust. Since that is a chemical process, though, I don't scrub, I just use my finger or soft sponge to rub it in.

-Stooxie

Just a heads-up - in addition to the cleaning process and rotisserie, the other difference between the manual-clean and self-clean is the oven racks. This might be a factor in your purchasing decision as well. The thread linked below discusses the rolling racks on the self-clean and the fixed racks on the manual.

Here is a link that might be useful: Culinarian oven racks discussion

Oh, I'm still wavering between the manual and self clean thing. The rotisserie does look impressive and I've no doubt about the great cooking results with it. But....we can cook outdoors almost any time we want here.

My husband spoke with Trevor on the phone the other day and Trevor said Capital fixed the rack situation on the manual clean range. They still aren't the rolling racks, but at least the strange positioning they once had is fixed.

Trevor said it was not difficult to clean the manual clean oven, but I need to speak with him to find out exactly what that would involve.

The part of me that doen't particularly like cleaning ovens says to go with the self clean, so I'm still debating the pros and cons. The price difference between the two isn't an issue in the whole scheme of things.It's more of the longevity and reliability issue. Computer boards are very pricey to replace, and high heat will eventually have an impact on them. Sometimes simpler is better.

I HATE making these kind of decisions!

I have ordered a manual clean culinarian - won't have it for a while because it is going into a new house that is still being built, but I think it was a good decision. Caddidaddy55's final response on the discussion about the rack situation was helpful.

Price was also not the deciding factor for us - reliability was - as Trevor said to me, mechanical things can break, but in my experience mechanical things are less likely to break and more likely to be readily repairable than electronics.

Bottom line is I don't have any actual experience with the manual clean cc - except for having finally made the decision to purchase and feeling good about it.

Sandy,

Just a thought on this:

"Trevor said it was not difficult to clean the manual clean oven, but I need to speak with him to find out exactly what that would involve"

I'm not sure you are going to find the right soothing words that are going to make a manual clean oven a no-brainer decision. It's not really fair to put Trevor in that position either, he can give you the generic version of the story but there will always be something that is tough to clean.

I find the hardest thing to clean off an oven is carbon, meaning foods that have been left to bake on time after time. I also find that if I clean up any splatters once the oven cools with a simple wet sponge that covers 90% of cleaning issues. However, if you let a big blob of cookie dough char on to the bottom you'll have a challenge! :)

It sounds like you'd really prefer the manual clean. I would follow your own words: use the range and don't abuse it and it will do you well. I just can't think of any times in the past 15 years that I've ever needed a self-clean option. I've done it with older ovens, never liked it much.

Just my thoughts!

-Stooxie

With all due respect Stooxie,(and I do appreciate your thoughts), I don't see how it isn't fair putting Trevor in that position. I'm just checking out every detail involving a purchase I'm going to make, in order to make the right decision, for me. I have to live with this decision a long time and do not want any regrets. Unfortunately most, if not all, self clean ovens are not supposed to be manually cleaned with anything, so a choice has to be made between the two.

I didn't get to speak with Trevor the other day because I was out, but it did sound (relayed through my husband) as though there are panels or inserts that can be removed for cleaning. If that is the case I don't feel it would be a big deal to clean this range. The burned on cookie blob would come out with the panel and can then be cleaned off. To me that is no worse than when I burn something in a pan. At least I could stand at the sink and deal with it.

I think the world of Trevor based on my conversations with him, and trust what he tells me, and I'll give him a call. He is good about laying out the facts. Sure wish I lived closer to EuroStoves and could pop in to see him! He did tell my husband that he prefers manual clean ranges himself.

You have helped by letting me know that although it has been some work for you now and again, it really hasn't been much of an issue. That's the sort of feedback I'm looking for. If a lot of people came back and said it has been a nightmare for them to clean their ovens, then that would be a huge consideration as well. It sounds like you haven't had any regrets, and I need to make up my mind and get the thing ordered!

Thanks so much (everyone) for taking the time to try and help me with this. I'm open to hearing more thoughts if anyone else has any.

Sandy

My thoughts on cleaning any oven are as follows.

It not difficult to simply clean the oven, but it does depends on the following.

1) How dirty you let it become.
2) How clean you want it, (clean enough so as not to smoke or looking like new are two different types of clean)
3) If you protect your oven from spills its easier to clean.
4) If you like cleaning or hate it.

With many pro ranges including the Culinarian you can take the oven floor out which makes that so much easier to clean, the side racking can come off with makes the sides relatively easy to clean.

The top and back of the oven can be tough due to the angle you will be cleaning from, having said that you can make the back and top a little easier by taking the oven door off. Oven door is easy to clean due to the fact its right in front of you.

If I was to clean our ovens I would use "Easy Off" sure it stinks really bad, it's not Green Friendly but it works well. One customer told me that she puts a bowl of ammonia in the oven overnight and simply wipes it out in the morning, never tried this so right now I can not say if it works or not.

In my mind what makes cleaning the oven hard is that everyone hates to do it, its just like many things in life, if you like doing something its not that tough (even enjoyable), if you don't like doing something its hard and you hate doing it.

Personally I hate it with a passion, so I would pay a local cleaning company $100 to do it for me.

I think your husband and I have our wires crossed, i don't prefer the manual cleaning oven, I prefer the self clean oven due to the rotisserie. If we have a $1000 difference between the Manual Clean and Self Clean oven I would justify the extra as follows.

$700 to the Rotisserie
$250 to the self Clean
$50 to the rolling racks.

I would have said that i never liked self cleaning ovens due the damage the heat can cause to the computer boards not the unit itself, because the Capital Culinarian does not have one single complex delicate computer boards I have not problem recommending it.

Just as a point of interest before I left the UK the fastest growing franchise was a company called "OvenClean", which tells you people hate to clean ovens.....lol

Thanks Trevor! I was hoping you would chime in, but I thought maybe you decided not to participate any more.

Yes, my husband sometimes misunderstands things, particularly if he is multi-tasking at the same time he is having a conversation. He is not a cook, and I do all the cleaning, so part of the issue may be he doesn't totally understand the whole situation either. That's why I decided I would call you and ask, but you answered me well here.

You've given me much to think about. I don't enjoy cleaning at all. Life is too short and I would rather hike a mountain trail or ride a horse. That said, I do clean because I like a clean home, but will minimize the chore as best I can. I also believe in eating quality food cooked on a quality range, so that involves some mess sometimes. We've all had a cherry pie, or something equally as messy, spill over in an oven before. Sugar and heat....what a mess!

Sounds like I need a self clean, doesn't it.

If you 100% want to verify how much effort it is, then I'm sure you could get a LOT of responses if you did a post entitled, "Want to clean your oven!" I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there in your area that would let you have a hands on experience for yourself. I'm only partly kidding here.

Because, as with anything, it IS subjective. "Clean" means different things to different people. And "effort" means different things to different people. It isn't fair to ask others about how much work it is to get their ovens clean without truly defining those two variables yourself.

You might also make a post asking for pictures of manual clean ovens before and after cleaning. Pictures are still interpreted individually, but at least everyone is working off the same image.

Well, I suppose you could always get the self-clean oven and then just opt to use that feature infrequently. There you go, best of both worlds!

-Stooxie

Actually I run the self clean feature in my current range rather infrequently. If I spill something I wipe it up right away. I never liked the heat output that the self clean cycle involves, and deep down have always been somewhat uncomfortable with it. I once had a Maytag malfunction during the self clean cycle and the resulting soot ruined the tile grout behind the range. I got rid of the range. I've also had a range in the distant past that decided to never unlock.

So no matter what the quality of a range is, no manufacturer can claim a perfect product because perfect doesn't exist in this world. We can only weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision we can based on our needs and temperament.

I have a cheap manual electric stove out in the barn that I haven't cleaned and I'm going to try the bowl of ammonia sitting in it one night to see how it works.

As far as "being fair to people", I'm not sure what you mean by that. I was only asking a question and only asking what someone else's take on it was. The Gardenweb used to be fun. Sorry I asked.

I'm with stooxie. If price is not a big issue, then it is a no brainer to go with the self clean. You will get the Rotisserie (which is waaay cool), the better racks which is also good and just don't use the self clean often or at all.

Sandy, think of it this way...If you are having a hard time deciding, then you must get the self clean as you can not add self clean or the other features it has after the fact, but you can always opt not to use the self clean. You may regret not having the added features of the self clean, but you will never regret having the extra features.

Hey Trevor, is there a way to disable the self clean feature? Of course I would not do such a thing while under warranty, but if you think you would be tempted to use it but do not want to out of fear of ruining the product, disabling it would be a good idea.

Sandy,

I wasn't trying to be confrontational.

I finally figured out part of the reason for the oven rack positions on the manual clean CC. The door glass is 3 layers thick and the glass area is about 2" above the door surface when open. The lowest rack position still allows the rack to be pulled out above the glass area. Still I wouldn't mind if when the rack was in the lowest position I couldn't pull it out, as that position would only be used for roasting. The top position is a little close to the broiler for thick cuts of meat though. If there is a retro fit kit to adjust the rack positions I would like more info. As far as manual clean vs self clean, our old range was self clean and we never used it once. The self clean with the price and tax differance was like $1700 a lot to pay for a rotisserie. I grill outside even in the middle of winter in Minnesota. I am with stooxie on the cleaning part. If you have a major spill over you can lift the oven bottom out to clean in the sink. I use a nylon scraper to get the worst, then dish detergent and a sponge to clean. Carefull with the scotchbrite though, but I use it gently too. (For you car people out there, never use it to clean anything on a car engine when rebuilding etc. the aluminum oxide can come off and cause premature bearing failure excessive oil use, etc.) The porcelean surface is really pretty easy to keep clean. Something you know has the potential to spill over like a pie, put a cookis sheet on the rack below.

I had a Thermador range with the auto cleaning and we couldn't stand the fumes. I now have a DCS and have used an easy off that only smells when you spray it on and it worked very good. I have also used baking soda covered by a wet towel overnight and that works well too.

I also ordered the manual clean But I am not getting the rotisserie. I have been wary of self clean ever since my dacor oven caught on fire in self cleaning mode.
One of my kids had used the oven(who knows what dripped).

I use Dawn power dissolver and a hot rag to clean now.

Can't wait to have my CC installed. We are building a house also.

Stooxie it wasn't you who had sounded confrontational as it wasn't you said I wasn't being fair to people to be asking such a question. I know words can sound blunt at times but it seems like there are more and more hurtful things being said. It's chased most of us rose gardeners off of the antique rose forum. It's a shame as there used to be some great experts who would participate...those renowned in the rose world. That said, I'm exhausted from building our home (which we are doing ourselves because we want things done correctly for a change), and being tired has made me too sensitive sometimes. I apologize to everyone if I have misunderstood and been cranky.

Anyway, back on the cleaning subject. I appreciate having more responses here. It truly helps.

Tyguy I wish the self cleans could be manually cleaned if the desire struck. However, all the self clean ovens that I know of cannot be manually cleaned with oven cleaners or it ruins them. I'm not sure if ammonia vapor woulod ruin it. GE told me the interiors are different and the self clean cannot handle chemicals without damage. Soap wouldn't hurt a self clean, but if something stronger happened to be needed now and again it could possibly ruin the surface.

The rotisserie option is nice, but I looked inside my oven last night, which has a taller cavity than the Culinarian, and I really couldn't imagine having to stoop in there to hook and unhook a rotisserie with meat hanging on it. Maybe it's not actually a big deal, but it didn't feel as though it would be comfortable to me. Using a rotisserie outdoors on a nice grill allows one to stand upright. If you haven't tasted chicken or a roast cooked over natural charcoal without chemicals additives or wood, you need to try it someday. It is out of this world.

I may be confused about this, but it sounds like the manual clean lower rack might have a higher position than the self clean lower rack. They both have a door to clear so I'm not getting why that would be. Are they both that way or only the manual clean?

The only thing I would be concerned about with a manual clean are the convection fan blades. There really is no way to get in there and clean a grease build up, which if enough things are roasted in there will eventually happen. Perhaps it's not an issue because it eventually bakes into a solid coating much like a cast iron pan does. If anyone has an asnwer to this I'd appreciate hearing about it.

I wish I didn't think all these different scenarios up. It drives me nuts.

Sandy

Actually self-clean ovens can usually be manually cleaned with cold oven cleaner - although you should check with your manufacturer to make sure. It was continuous clean ovens (I don't know if they even make these any more) that couldn't be manually cleaned.

It may very well be the manufacturer, so that is something I will check into about the Culinarian. My fairly new GE Profile self clean range manual says specifically not to use oven cleaners in it, and I seem to recall the Maytag did as well. It would be great if the Culinarian could go either way, and is something I will check into.

I remember the old continuous clean ovens. They weren't so great.

Forgot to add that my husband, who worries about electronics, said this morning he thinks I should get the self clean and not worry about it. I never leave my range unattended while it is on anyway, and he feels that the Culinarian is well dsesigned enough that the wear and tear on the electronics isn't a big concern of his. It would be interesting to know if it can be manually cleaned though.

The hardest part is deciding if I should get the red one, which is a beauty, and not the white or plain stainless. My latest concern is matching the hood, which is not inexpensive, with the red range. If something ever happened to my red range the red hood would most likely not match anything else.

I will be glad when the decisions are made.

Well, I just started running the self clean on my GE and the fumes are horrible. I've had to open all my windows even though the air conditioning is on. No smoke...just fumes that irritate my chest. The oven isn't even all that dirty. I had actually forgotten how bad the fumes can be.

We have the manual clean CC & my wife would have it no other way. The self cleaners we've had before have been pitiful, but they were cheap pos compared to the CC. My wife cares not for rotisserie so that didn't even enter in, so even if Capital offered it in the manual clean she wouldn't have taken it.

I looked at the rotisserie in the Precision and it looked like I'd almost have to contort myself to use it. I would never have used it myself. It's much easier to do it outside.

I've decided to order a Bluestar range. All I'm waiting for is the pricing from a Florida dealer today on the 48 inch range and the VentAHood ventilation system we're getting to go with it.I had the opportunity to look at the oven in the Precision which is the same as the Culinarian, and I like the quality, the oven, the racks, and of coarse the burners way better than the pictures I saw of the Culinarian's. The manual clean won't be an issue because the oven serface looks slick enough to clean easily.

You're right. The self cleans aren't all that good, and I hate the fumes that you get even with the windows open and the hood running.

If you have not compared a CC to a BS in person then you are making a mistake. I have and I chose the CC for the reason you mentioned.

The mistake I refer to is not the choice of range, but not testing both.

I don't feel I'm making a mistake. I carefully looked many, many ranges over, including a Capital sitting on the floor a few feet from the Bluestar. It was a Precison and not the Culinarian, but it was enough to make a judgement. I felt the Bluestar was the superior range. I'm not saying the Capital is not a good range. Many people are thrilled with them. I just feel the Bluestar, for me, can't be beat.

I don't need to fire up the burners to see how well they work. I've cooked long enough to be able to tell what I need to know by examining them closely. I have no doubts that the BS has very even heating burners. I also have no doubts that the CC does as well, judging from Trevor's excellent photos.

I like the BS grates and quality, the arrangement and looks of the burners, the heft of the oven racks, the slick interior of the ovens (which should make them easy to clean), the way the oven racks operate, the overall build quality, and the looks, better than any of the several other "high end" ranges I looked at.

I am at peace and have absolutely no doubt left in my mind. The hardest part was settling on a color. When two ranges are both good and put side by side, the choice becomes a very personal one. It's nice to have choices.

Sandy

I would have bought the BS had the CC not appeared, but the local BS dealer is an idiot. Finding either range in the San Antonio, Houston or Austin area was a problem. With as many high end buyers as those cities generate you would think different. We flew to Boston to see action. The distributor network is pathetic, so finding a good dealer is paramount. Good luck with your kitchen - I have been a pain, but you are choosing, not me. Either way you will be happy.

We've got a manual clean Culinarian (well, I like to think of it as self-clean, since we have to clean it ourselves).

No problems here, but we are mostly a vegetarian household, so meat has only ever been cooked in the oven 3 or so times, and the oven is mostly used for baking bread and sweets, roasting vegetables, etc. We've had it for almost a year, and have never really had to clean the inside of the oven, beyond wiping down the inside window once or twice.

FWIW, the Culinarian grates, are totally different from the Precision grates, though I do like the middle grate on the 30" Blue Star (with the cross-hatched pattern) better than the one on the 30" Culinarian, which seems just a bit higher than the burners themselves, and isn't really as harmonious as the Blue Star's visually.

I am not as enamored of the look of the Culinarian as some, but I like the wok grate design much more, and that was a big deciding factor for me.