While I've used the mats when specified, when I could choose my own I'd go with mat-less cable.

As far as mats go, I've used SunTouch, NuHeat, Warmly Yours, maybe one or two others. They all seem fairly predictable. I've had to tease some of the mats out to get them properly arranged.

Personally though, I just prefer the mesh-less and mat-less cable.

Biggest thing I advise DIYers to do is to not thinset the cable and set the tile in one step. They tend to ding the cables with the edge of the trowel. when doing that.

Or use SLC. Let it cure, then tile. If you use SLC don't forget the primer. Figure 1/2" gain in elevation for the thickness of the layer of SLC/cable.

We've put down the Warming Systems cables in 4 large rooms now. The oldest is 2 years and we've had nary a problem with the wires. We did have a sensor that went bad in the kitchen and had to replace it. WS wire was $3.17/sq ft when we first started buying it, but they're now up to $5, so I don't know if they're still the cheapest.

I must confess that I've boldly flaunted mongo's advice (bill's too, I believe) and I do the thinset and tile in one step, mostly because I'm lazy, and I've honed my technique of trowling along the wires so they're in between notches. I also think the WS wires are decently robust that it would take more than a slightly off-kilter trowel to cut through and damage the wire.

A half inch of elevation just for cable and SLC? Is that a typo mongo?

No, no typo. That's for the cable-only systems, they usually require 1/2" thickness of mass.

With the cable-in-mat you can go thinner.

And who are you kidding, weedy...you probably have more experience setting tile than most contractors!

I've signed up for the Warming Systems e-mail list--thanks, weedy. So no short-outs so far?

and mongo, thanks. I went with the mat to save me trouble with wiring, go figure. I really think it was internal flaws in the wires--esp. after the other person had the same problem a year later. We finally got the 20 ft cut (where the faultfinder had indicated the problem was), spliced, hooked up and working one time for about 8 hours and it *failed*. The faultfinder made no sense at all. Our electrician couldn't make sense of it either - it was just a big mess. The one thing I didn't do which I could have would have been to hook it up literally, not just do resistance testing, to discover the mistake before we tiled over the whole darn thing. I plan to do that this time.

I was really careful around the wires, seriously. I also hand-re-edged every single inch of tile we used in that bathroom, to take it from a trapezoidal line to a straight vertical edge. I can do detail work, you know :).

This is a great question, flyleft.

My electrician has talked me into a heated floor. I was already planning to install Ditra under my tile and was leaning toward Warmly Yours mesh after seeing their site on the John Bridge Forum. But would I be better off getting the Warming Systems mesh system? Adding an extra 1/2 inch of height for the cable only would be awkward.

Is there a difference in what you're talking about here vs whole house radiant floor systems?
New to all of this since wer're in the deep, deep south and heated floors are pretty rare. But will be building farther north and were planning on radiant heat in the floors. Would hate to put it in and have it fail!

Yes, gbsim. Radiant heat in the floors that serves as a primary heat source is more often hydronic, with water pipes running under concrete. Is that what you're doing?I'm a big fan of that kind of heating, esp. when combined with geothermal. If that's what you're getting, you're LUCKY! The only thing I've heard about it that's a bit negative is that when repairs were needed on systems that were put into place, say, back in the 50s-60s (the Eichlers and Rummers out here come to mind), it was very difficult to access the pipes. But I would imagine that that problem has been addressed.

This is just electric wiring embedded into thinset to make the tile a bit warm and cozy.

I have read about installing 2 sensors in case the first one stopped working. Both would be installed in the floor tile while only 1 would be hooked up to the thermostat. If #1 breaks, simply disconnect it and connect the spare.

I am very seriously considering heated floors. But gbsim just made me stop and think more about this. I am in northern half of Texas. We don't get severe winters here, but we do get them even though they are mild in comparison. While I hate cold tile, am I considering a cost that doesn't make sense for my area?

Hi fly! I can recommend NuHeat after good experience with the product. Its been in my kitchen for 3 years and in my bathroom for 1 year with no issues. Love the programmable thermostat and the heat is just awesome. We DIYed it with a little help from their customer service (though I note that my boyfriend is an electrician, so we had an advantage there). Good luck!

We have used SunTouch Matless - and no problems. This does require you to lay out steel bridge pieces - to fasten the wire to...

A recent development is a plastic product (haven't used) which takes the place of cement board, and has grids in it - for the wire to set in. Makes it virtually impossible to damage the wire during the install, and allows you to still route with ease.

This stuff was impossible to find on their website. I had to call them. They said to type 'RPM' in the search window. You then scroll down and find it...

http://www.masterwholesale.com/mwistore/display.php?RecordID=1221515830

Floor heating products - why in blazes don't I find the rpm 'mat' in there?? (Radiant Positioning Mats)

http://www.masterwholesale.com/index/in-floor-heating.html

And the link to the main page below.

Flyleft - Unfortunately - I don't believe that Thermasoft quality is the problem. They are all made essentially the same... Two items.

1. Any break in these wires has to be spliced together extremely carefully, and with a special kit. Otherwise - it generates extra heat at the splice and causes another failure.

2. Failure of the wire can be caused by other than nicking the element when installing. Proper spacing must be maintained. If two wires are too close together - that will eventually cause a failure at that point.

And if you installed the wire too close to a wall, or a cabinet or some such - that will cause excess heat - and again - a wire failure.

Other than your installation - how many times has your electrician - sucessfully repaired these electrical heating wires? Again - if you break one - a special splice is needed to repair. And if you just 'nicked' it - and then it overheated (because of the nick) and failed slowly during use - then more of the wire would actually be damaged, then at just the break which was caused by excess heat; which was caused by the nick.

BTW: they make a simple device called a "LoudMouth" tester. You hook it up to the wire before you mortar or set tile. It continuously monitors the wire. But it is really just a simple resistance yelling device - and a good quality digital VOM should probably work just as well.

For anyone interested - check out the RPM mats. (Radiant Positioning Mats.) I have never used them. But I would consider it. The product didn't exist awhile back... Replaces Hardibacker, etc.

Another BTW: Master WholeSale sells a lot of tile tools, and stuff. They also seem to go thru a lot of employees, and a lot of employees seem to be from Russia. I have NOTHING against Russian employees, but my problem (which I asked a manager about) is when the manager looks like their around 22 years of age - and they're telling me about the 50 years of experience they have... (He then stated that his father had been laying tile for years - and that he had helped his Dad out on jobs...)

Absolutely EVERYONE is an 'expert' at Master Wholesale. Its just - that this isn't usually the truth. They are nice people and all - but I now take the 'ease' of how stuff is done, and some of their "watch this video - and see how easy it is" with a lot more salt. I do business with them. I like them. But - a lot of people there are very young - and everyone always knows everything... I live in Seattle, and go to the store in person.

As far as being available for info, or to purchase product - they are only closed - 3 days - out of the entire year... (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter) Nice when you need something, but bad for the employees.

Here is a link that might be useful: Floor Heat, Tools and stuff

Master Wholesale - also sells a plastic trowel - sole purpose to help avoid nicking wires or other damage - when installing electic heat mats or matless wire.

dave, thanks for your post. I realize you don't know me, so you need to post all the possible pitfalls, but I have to say that we followed all those instructions completely carefully, didn't space wires too close, install too close to other thhings, did a separate round of thinset covering the mats before the thinset for the tile, got the proper repair splice kits (two or three separate rounds were sent out, as I remember) and faultfinder from the company, etc.

I've only heard of my and the other person's fails, but the other person who posted here was also extremely careful. For a company that boasts that its wires are extra protected compared to the competition, that's a disappointing track record. It could be that they're all constructed the same, but it might well be possible that the quality of the manufacture of the wires is not the same from brand to brand. Kind of like saying all drywall is constructed the same, including the Chinese stuff...technically it's constructed the same as all other drywall, but there prove to be very significant differences upon installation.

(Interesting you should mention Russia -- Thermosoft also had a Russian contact who was incredibly rude to us during the attempted repair process--I mean jawdroppingly, never-before-experienced kind of rude. Somehow my DH got himself through in another call to an American (I think the VP?) who was completely different--respectful, professional, etc. and basically tacitly apologized for the other person's behavior.)

Thanks, callieandkarin -- they're a name that's been around and is sold locally, too. I'll add them to the list.

Flyleft - your probably right. I just hate to see companies maligned when possibly something else could be the culprit.

I don't like to perform a bunch of work, and then have it go kaput - thru no fault of the work. Just choosing a poorly made product.

Master Wholesale is somehow related to SunTouch. The floor warming products they sell are a SunTouch product.

SunTouch promises a low emf. I believe so do others. Course, per Suntouch - they are the only ones with the low emf product. Quote:

"With fully armored and grounded power leads and twin-wire design, SunTouch radiant heating mats are the only electric floor warming products manufactured in America that are designed with EMF canceling technology."

"SunTouch radiant floor heating products lead the way in EMF canceling technology and have pioneered testing standards to promote safe products."

I am extremely sorry to hear of your bad experience with electric floor heat warming, and Thermasoft. Start another budget to completely redo the affected floor...

So be encouraged, and install it in our daughter's bath upstairs. Best to you.

SunTouch IS a quality product.

Here is a link that might be useful: SunTouch

We put "Warm Tiles" in our master bath 9 years ago. Everything has performed flawlessly -- however, we have had to replace the thermostat just recently. But the company stood behind it and sent us a new thermostat at not cost. Very pleased with the product and the service. It's that time of the year when I really appreciate that warm floor.

Oy, Dave, the idea of redoing that bathroom -- I can't tell you...I have permanent damage in my hand from re-edging all that porcelain (as I mentioned, it only came in regular edges, so I re-edged it all for tighter grout lines. Didn't lose a tile!). I just don't have it in me to do it all over again, the tile's discontinued (it's the same tile on the floor and in the shower). It's just a sad thing I have to live with.

I'll look into the SunTouch (but, but, but -- ThermoSoft is the only "0 EMF" product, I thought! LOL). Those mats are interesting--Have to price that out compared to Ditra etc. Thanks for the leads.

And thanks for the Warm Tiles vote, joyce. Good to hear a company standing behind its product.

Dave: The Radiant Positioning Mats look too good to be true!

If my reading comprehension skills are working at 100%, SunTouch sells wire at masterwholesale.com using the name MasterHeat wire. Their kit looks exactly like the one on the SunTouch website... loudmouth, thermostat, etc... all identical.

Does anyone know if the Schluter Screed System http://www.schluter.com/146.aspx is the same as the RPM stuff http://trgfloors.com/

???????

MasterWholesale sells SunTouch product. If you call them (toll free); they will tell you that MasterHeat is 'SunTouch.' Not quite sure how that all works...

The Schluter Screed system is NOT the same item as the RPM (Radiant Positioning Mats) manufactured by TRG in Bothel, WA. (Which is quite close to Seattle, and where Master WholeSell is located...

When you click 'distributor info' at TRG website - it takes you to Master WholeSell.

And although the Schulter system is NOT the same as the TRG - it seems to be made to perform the same function.

I then, would tend toward the Schulter product. I haven't ever used anything Schulter. And although I like Master WholeSell, I have noticed a propensity of some exagerations on their part, or some tools which I have purchased from them - not being totally up to par - or what they stated...

I still purchase stuff from them... but I believe I mentioned earlier - something about "a lot more salt". So, if another company is making a similar product - I might lean toward that other product. In this case - I would definitely be leaning toward the Schulter mat - till I had checked them out. I haven't ever installed the TRG mats either...

Again though - Sun Touch wires and Mats are quality products - which I have no hesitation in purchasing or recommending.

The Schulter website you reference Julie - state that Schulter Screed system is for hydronic..

You might want to talk to Schulter for more info.

I know the RPM are for electric... and I'm not trying to mad mouth Master WH; I just try to be more careful when I deal with them - because I have experienced some quality issues - especially on tools that they manufacture and control.

Thanks, Dave. I have emailed Suntouch and Schluter to see what's up. I also emailed a link to my friend/tile helper to see what he thinks.

We are going with the SunTouch WarmWire, the Mat is too expensive for this application and the cutting and flipping would drive me crazy. Installing the wire with the usual metal strips looks doable for a DIY'er but those mats make the process seem incredibly easy and fast.

Almost too good to be true.......

Dave, we're looking at the RPMs and wondering how one would handle the areas where one doesn't have wire, e.g. under the vanity, around the toilet, etc. -- does one just put, say, durock of the same height butted up against the mats? Did you get to the point of looking into that question with the experts at Master Wholesale? :) TIA if you have any thoughts on this, whether things can be just butted up against--maybe with some Redgard on the joint? Dunno...

julie, fwiw, looking at the Schluter screed info page, I see that you still need to put Ditra over the screed under the tile. With the RPMs, supposedly you just tile over the leveling compound layer. (I wonder if they have any uncoupling effect.)

OK - my wife & I had several phone conversations with them on your behalf... (and we found out more stuff).

Radiant Positioning Mats (hereafter referred to as RPM) - are installed everywhere.

Even where your not putting wire. Then you just fill with thinset, tile over, and voila!

I suppose you could cut and paste Cement Board in selected areas for no height difference...

RPM come in two thicknesses - 5/16" or 1/2"

I was thinking you would screw down to install - NOT!

It is glued down. You either glue to plywood, or concrete.

If attaching to Concrete the glue used is: Bostik "Ultra Set" Bostik UltraSet comes in two different versions... The 'experts' at MasterWS after numerous phone calls - stated that they sell either one of them for this application. Either the sausage packaged glue, or the gallon type container of... This glue is trowled on using a 1/8" x 1/8 trowel (v notch)

If attaching to plywood - the glue is: Roberts "2001"

Both glues are troweled on... - using the 1/8" trowel

The glues are available most everywhere. MasterWS sells a gallon of (Roberts) 2001 for $13.16; and a (Bostik) 30oz tube for $24; or 2 gal for $157

The Bostik is two types of glue: UltraSet SF; or UltraSet Overlay... either type can be used. This glue is used for attaching RPM directly to CONCRETE. (30oz tube 12sq feet; 2 gal 100sq feet)

The Roberts 2001 - is for attaching RPM to a wood subfloor such as plywood... MasterWS state 1 gal covers 60sq feet. 4 gal 240 sq feet

Again - you cannot screw these down. If you attempt to screw - the RPM can crack and distort.

On plywood - the RPM can be glued and stapled. The staples being like a carpet stapler (MasterWS stated.)

RPM are 20" X 44" size - both thicknesses.

The price is same for either thickness: $15.44 per RPM

That's it. MasterWS is open SEVEN days a week. They have toll free and local phone numbers published on their homepage. The glues are available at various Hardware Stores - they realize the glues are not designed for this application - but that is what is used, and how you install them...

From the horse's mouth: Schluter screed stuff is for hydronic tubing only. NOT electrical wire.

The TRG website has an installation video showing the glue and stapling. The thing that's holding me back is there really isn't any feedback out there on the product. The review section has 1 listing... that makes me nervous.

The 15.44 per piece isn't an issue... that's worth it for the peace of mind and ease of installation this product seems to bring to the table.

Can it -really- take the place of the backer board? From a technical/structural standpoint, is it ok?

Well... Master WS states it will work. And it is made specifically to do what your needing.

Why can't we put tile directly on top of Plywood?? Used to do it years ago. So, after some problems developed over years - cement board was created.

Cement board is not stiff or a miracle... but we decouple the tile from the plywood, and give the thinset more of a similar structure to itself - to bond to...

The RPM basically become filled with Thinset or modified mortar; and the thinset is still decoupled from the plywood.

I haven't ever used it. But Master WS are not liars; I just have a few dingles on some of their products...

Anyway - I would think that technically - this stuff would work.

BTW: However, and whatever you use - be sure to take photographs of your installed wiring before it gets covered. Later on - (can I screw this down here??) these inexpensive, digital archived photos - can be quite informative. (This tile broke, I need to replace...)

Your point of installing two sensors is excellent. I have done that as well...

Thanks for your input, dave. I just don't want to choose something new (RPM) over something old (backer board) only to have it fail and be a huge disappointment.

Dave, how kind of you and your wife to bother to find out this for us! Your post gives so much good information, answers so many questions...really gives me enough to go on to start figuring costs/benefits etc. of the various methods. Thank you so very much.

Ive installed Thermosoft floor heating mats several times in the past ( I am a contractor). I donÂt remember any problems with them, even with support. The first time I installed it 5 years ago at my friendÂs house in couple bathrooms and kitchen. It still works fine and he is very happy with his warm floor.
Unfortunately, there are no systems in the world that are 100% fail-proof. Anything can fail. Even Toyota, which is one of the most reliable car manufacturers, has recalls...

I did have several failures with Suntouch and Warmly Yours in the past, the same with Nuheat. And those are very expensive! I don't know why...
But sometimes, the failure happens because of mistakes during installation, which is hard to admit...
I had to fire one of my workers after I found that he dropped a very heavy tool on the heating wire, nicked it and continued installation...
After such thing the system may easily fail after a few months in that spot...
However, I would definitely stay away from Floorheatech ( who also works under easywarmfloor.com, heatingonline.com, heavenly-heat.com, etc). They got "F" in BBB for the reason and I truly had a very bad experience with them several times.
I would also avoid Warming Systems, which is a very small company, buying their heaters somewhere in Eastern Europe without UL approval and mostly doing business on ebay...
I hope this helps.

I am looking to install radiant heat in my 50 sq. ft. bathroom. I don't know whether to use the cable or mat. I did find this cable on Ebay , http://www.ebay.com/itm/Floor-Heating-cable-840-W-55-70sq-ft-UL-sert-/250461912010?pt=Tile_Flooring&hash=item3a50b17bca

I was thinking about laying this down with the hvac tape and buying a Aube thermostat. Does the thermostat have to be GFCI?
Any help would be appreciated

I know this is an ancient post but am wondering how everyone's floors are holding up? I'm about to purchase a kit to do a bathroom on concrete and would love to hear from anyone who tried the wiring from ebay or homedepot! Schluter Ditra Heat now makes a system, but boy is it expensive!! $550 for 21 sq ft.so am looking for a more reasonable but reliable system!

Reviving an old post. I have a 10 year+ warmly yours system, self installed, still going strong. Looked here as I am building a new house and seeing what has changed.

We sold our house with tons of Warming Systems wire in 2013, but the floors were all still warming strongly after 6 years.

We put more Warming Systems in our current place: bathroom 2 1/2 years ago and new powder room just last week. Mr. Weedy has become expert at making end-loops out of the tiny wires so that we just work off a big spool and cut to length.

We put Nuheat in this past fall in our master bath and first floor powder room (cables, not mats) and so far love them and have had no issues.