icf, sip, geothermal, overwhelmed!!!! help!
kelhuck
12 years ago
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marie_ndcal
12 years agolast modified: 9 years agodavid_cary
12 years agolast modified: 9 years agoRelated Discussions
Budgeting the Efficient Home: Where's the Best Payout?
Comments (56)Lyns, I've resisted posting on this one so far, as others already have covered the basic advice. Yes, go for superinsulation, make it as tight as it possibly can be, and install the HRV for controllable mechanical ventilation. Ignore any advice to the effect that you don't want to make it too tight, because "the house has to breathe." Spend extra as required for really good windows. They do make a real difference; your energy model for the house will show you that. Forget the whole house fan. It has little use in the sort of house you want to build. Running a whole house fan in hot weather will just draw hot, humid air through the house and make it hot and humid inside. In an ordinary house, there can be times when a whole house fan can bring in cool night air and provide almost free air conditioning. The tight, highly insulated you want to build simply will not gain heat very fast in summer, just as it won't lose heat fast in winter. Your A/C load for summer conditions probably can be met with one ton of capacity, and it won't needed very often at that. Given that you want the house to be very tight, and will have mechanical ventilation always running (at least on low speed), that means less worry about having an attached garage, not more, provided you detail properly your air barrier at the wall between garage and house. The garage absolutely must be outside the house's air barrier. With ordinary construction, and little attention to tightness of the shell, an attached garage would be more of a problem. I am speaking from experience here. I designed the shell of my own house and was on site for the build, advising the crew of particular things I needed to have done at certain times, some of which I just did myself. The structure is a double wall with 12" cavity filled with dense packed cellulose (R40). The attic floor is R60. Basement walls are R20 where there is concrete and R40 where framed (walkout areas). Sub-slab is R20. Windows are triple pane, around U=0.17, and all casements except for some fixed glass units. Not every window need be operable. The final blower door test came in at 0.8 ACH at 50 pascals depressurization. That confirmed the selection of a two-ton GSHP unit for heat and A/C. The gross footprint is 2,000 sq.ft., and there are two levels, so living space is 4,000 less walls, stairwell, and whatever isn't included in "living space." The energy model, which I did myself, shows heat loss at design minimum temperature to be about 22,000 BTU/hr. Worst case A/C load is less than half that. There also is a small woodstove in the lower level, with a firing range of 11-28,000 BTU/hr. Last winter we actually used that to heat the whole house, burning perhaps half time, while interior finishing was going on. It has an outside air kit, so the stove doesn't depend on inside air supply. I like having a wood fire now and then. Last summer, very little A/C was needed; the unit was loafing, coming on just once in a while, and never running in second stage. This winter has not been an especially hard one for really testing the house and heat pump. Still, there were a few nights getting down around zero for a while, and the heat pump still never went to second stage. I have been told by others that superinsulated houses often do test out better than the energy model had predicted. Lyns, you can have the same level of performance in your new house, and the cost isn't all that much more, if everything is done at the right time during construction. I totaled up everything involving the superinsulation part of our new house, relative to "ordinary," and it came to around $20K, about the price of a new car. With the savings in heating cost, the extra cost will pay for itself in less than ten years, then pay out like a slot machine thereafter. If I blew the $20K on a car, in ten years it would be a rustbucket with no value. Where's the "payout" in that? Moreover, the house really is delightful to live in, with no drafts or cold spots, worth every penny spent to make it better than "ordinary."...See MoreNew Construction Advice
Comments (2)SIPs are a good fast way of constructing a tight house. however shipping costs can really add up, and contractors sometimes do not like to quote them any cheaper to accommodate reduced labor charges if they do not have much experience. Another option might be ICF construction as well. Storms, tornadoes, and energy efficient house would be big pros for ICF. However if you want to stick with stick framing, you can use wet spray or dense packed cellulose in your walls instead of spray or batts. Spray foam is very expensive way to insulate, and rarely has a pay off to it. Cellulose on the other hand, as you know is much greener and healthier, denser then batts so it aids in both sound reduction and air infiltration reduction. You can take it to the next level and install a rain screen details 1" (min) exterior XPS foam on the outside of the studs to create a thermal break on the studs. It will also greatly reduce air and moisture infiltration. Caulking is your friend. It is the single cheapest way to greatly enhance the performance of your house. If building with ICF, its very easy to get a tightly sealed and strong house. Framing you have a lot of individual pieces and each one needs to be thought of. Any joint between 2 materials (such as a stud and a sill plate, or stud and the osb) can leak air. Air infiltration is your #1 thing to prevent, then followed by insulation. Caulk all joints, everywhere as possible. Cellulose and exterior insulation will give you the best bang for buck when compared to foams and other methods if you do not want to pursue SIPs or ICF. 2x6 framing is the way you want to go, especially with 10' high walls. It will be more rigid and stronger. you can consider going 24" oc spacing as well for more energy efficiency. True advanced framing methods use 24" spacing, only osb or bracing at shear locations, single top plates, 2 stud corners, etc. However I still like to use osb on the exterior with the foam and double top plates. metals roofs have other advantages besides helping with energy costs. Also note lighter roofs are effective, darker ones are on much better then shingles. They are stronger and last a lot longer with next to 0 maintenance. It just depends on how long you wish to live in this house. One thing I recommend is checking into geothermal. With current tax rebates until 2015, It would not surprise me if the geo system costs nearly the same as a high SEER HP. I know on the house I am designing the geo system costs $14k after rebates and high SEER HP is $12500. No brainer if you ask me. Another plus is you do not have any noisy condenser or units sitting outside. Designing and implementing efficient construction is a big juggle of the best products to use where. There is some overlap, but people have various opinions. Some people add things for pure payoff in mind. Some people add things realizing they may not see a pay off, but its "greener". For example you can go with a geo system and cut costs other places such as shingle roof and eliminate the exterior foam. What this does is actually make your payback of the geo faster, but that is because your house shell is less efficient....See MoreICF foundation or full build
Comments (21)Our house is mostly Logix ICF except one wall that was done stick for an easier possible future addition and the knee walls and gables on the upper story. It is a story and a half house built on a crawlspace. We also used ICF to frame our porch and entry foundation. For us, the siding was more labor intensive as we went with cement board and it required pre-drilling each hole and using special screws to fasten to the strips. You can also do furring strips with cement siding, but our rep recommended the former. Our interior is drywall but where we knew cabinets would be we put up plywood and I believe DH used cement anchors. We also put metal backing in where curtain rods and bathroom hardware would go. (Take lots of pictures for future reference.) As others have mentioned the heating and cooling is a plus but I don't believe that anyone has mentioned how quiet an ICF house is. In MN we also face some pretty big storms both summer and winter, so we feel a little bit like the piggy who built out of stone. :-) Our friend calls our house the bomb shelter. It feels solid. Jill...See Morecolumns help: photoshop?
Comments (14)Coleen, my roof is certainteed independence line called cottage red. I am now doubting my choice of red roof. My choice if I could have afforded it would have been tile like roof made of metal but it was too expensive. I am doubting the red color because I am having a hard time choosing the color of the exterior of our house. I thought I knew what I wanted but now that the house is up, it is hard to make the choice for the color of the exterior and the choices are limited with red roof. Breaking ground, with medium to high end finishing, the house alone is $425K. This is with ICF, geothermal and radiant heat. This is also owner builder. Right now, I am already 30K over the above budget with change orders and trucking more soil. You might get better deal with slumping building industry at this time....See Morekelhuck
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