Waterbug guy, First I will talk a little bit about concrete in water. You say it is a myth that concrete in water can kill fish and raise the PH. When concrete first sets up the surface PH is 12.0. Which is the same PH as a drain cleaner called "draino". As it is exposed to the CO2 in the air the PH goes down. But water is a very good leaching agent and so water will continue to try and get the chemicals out of the concrete. So will the PH in the water be raised? If the water has normal PH of 6.5 to 8.5 the answer is yes. The real question should be "how much will it raise it"? That question isn't easily answered as there are a lot of variables. Just to list some the age of the concrete, the condition of the concrete, is the water flowing over the concrete, the natural PH of the water, is the water being changed, and the volume of the water versus the contact area of the concrete. In some cases the rise might be so low as to make it very difficult to measure. But in other cases it can and does raise the PH to 9 to 9.5. At these levels it can and does kill fish. If I remember correctly you have stated that you are a pond contractor. If you are I hope you having started using roofing liner in the ponds that you build. Most of the time a person on this forum is never going to have a problem with roofing liner. Can there be a problem with roofing liner? This should be the question. The answer is yes. The chances that there could be a problem is very low. The largest pond product manufacturer in the US sent out a letter to all their customers a number of years ago. This letter said that all their liner in the future would be tested to be fish safe as they got a batch in that was not. In other words they were selling roofing liner as pond liner. This company had been selling a lot of liner for 10 years before this problem. If it had happen today with the wide use of the internet I would have think that some lawyer would have gotten this information and started a class action lawsuit against them and they would be out of business. The lawyer could easily have sued them not only for the cost of the liner that they had sold but for the cost to replace all those liners in the ponds built with them going back to the first time they sold this liner. The largest liner manufacturer in this country has told me that almost never would you ever have a problem with roofing liner but you might. I think that as a contractor you can't take that chance. If you were unlucky and did have a problem and were sued over that problem the lawyer handling the case would find out that they would sue for every customer that you have that has this liner. In other words you would be out of business. So is roofing liner toxic? No most of the time. But there is a small chance that there maybe a problem. I have only talked about 2 of the 8 things that you listed. I could easily talk about many of the other things listed but my point is this. You listed these things as black and white but they are not black and white. The only thing that is black and white about ponds is that all aquatic life will die. Mike

I'd give them more time. I've just ordered from them for the first time, but I joined in on an order in the fall. The lady who headed the fall one up is a big SwallowTail fan. I missed the note on my own order stating that it was a special order and would take 2-3 weeks for them to mail out to me. I called, left message, called twice the next day and the phone was answered. I wasn't mad at all, and the lady nicely restated the 2-3 week policy which was clearly at the top of the page when I ordered--DUH!!! Their website says that during rush season they can be very late on getting back with people. Seems like they are a very small operation with quality seeds. I wouldn't count on BBB, etc., helping you with a problem that is just a one business day old, and the next time it would be much better if you would give the other party more than one business day before you start writing letters. Those letters probably won't do any good as the problem really isn't a problem yet. Take a deep breath a give it some time! I do hope, however, that they got the order cancellation you mailed for both of your sakes.

Oh no, marcolo, what did I say?! Whatever, I'm sure it wasn't intended as a swipe and I do apologize, any and everyone!... the "group think" I was referring to was part of this sentence: "What I was referring to was the KD-group think that insisted I had to have a box around the fridge and I had to have a conference about it and insist and put my foot down and say no and then worry about it for months and months: 'what do I know that the KD doesn't know'? Did I make a mistake being so insistent....' That sort of misery. " I was referring to how unpleasant things felt for me regarding this stupid little potential wall next to the refrigerator. It was something I had to fight hard for, not having. My KD (no one on here) ... actually, I should say the person who sold me the cabinets as she had almost zero planning input - but she is a designer and I valued her design sense (in the absence of any formal training here). Anyway, this person told me, in a completely shocked voice "Oh there is no way I would ever build a kitchen without a box for the refrigerator. It just doesn't look good". I hadn't really even realized she'd included it in the plan; I hadn't in what I'd asked for. But this was during a meeting with her boss where we were trying to save some money (!) and it came to light that this massive hunk of wood was planned. Her point was also that it was required additionally for structural reasons. But her boss, a (former, I should think) carpenter, waived this away and said structurally it wasn't necessary as there were two walls. It was evidently a very expensive part of the bill as the piece of wood is large, requiring stitching together and much finishing. But that left me wondering what she knows that I don't know. Thus I came here with this question, wondering why I was so crass as to imagine such an installation different from the requirement of the "KD-group". Obviously, many many haven't boxed. Moreover many who do, do so wisely and serenely (as David and others point out). My swipe was at the way I was made to feel it was utterly unthinkable to do what I wanted to do, when in fact many have and do and there is good reason to; as it turned out my kitchen was just one such one. But I couldn't see that confronted with an angry person insisting I was doing the completely wrong thing way back when! This thread was really instructive for me first of all seeing so many boxed-in fridges that looked terrific, so many that not only looked terrific but necessary, and many more that really didn't need it; as well as articulating some of the reasons, in both directions, people have for going one way or another, reasons quite apart from design considerations. It's my impression that this is one decision that is squarely and flatly in the middle ground where reasonable minds can completely disagree, or also that reasonably different kitchens converge to the same solution and conversely, similar kitchens reasonably conclude with a different solution. The 'group think' I was objecting to was that evidently somewhere in KD-world is the rule that One Shalt Not Box. It flustered me! Apologies for: (1) the persnickety, overly-long explanation and (2) any residual unintentional insult I may have implied. Marcolo - thanks for noticing about the grain. That's something that was a new 'articulation' for me. That is, I've always loved the grain of wood I saw that some doors had more than others (I also love that clear open aspect that sometimes comes that it may have been Buehl? forget who - who pointed me to a great explanation of in another thread about how this arises when you sever certain plants cells at an angle). When we got a sample of the door my husband pointed out that it had a seam down the middle disrupting the wood grain. This was evidently required with "solid wood", a high-end upgrade. But this observation let to realizing that veneer might actually be preferable from some perspectives, like this one. He wanted an uninterrupted stretch of wood grain (I agreed) so these doors are all veneered. I really love it. And I would never have noticed or realized quite why some doors look better than others. If you want to see the wood grain and it's not too expensive (it was cheaper for us actually), I highly recommend this option. For some reason I haev associated 'veneer' with 'less-good', but I think I've been all wrong. It's quite a nifty technique. Silly prejudice again; not sure where it all comes from! Anna, you're cute. A bunch of people have asked about the Rainforest Green slab. I have noticed it's hard to get a good picture of the - I think it's sandstone and not marble? Not sure... whatever it is, it's shiny and moves and varies tremendously; hard conditions for a good picture. Oee of these years I'll get a good series of pictures. In the meantime if you're thinking of using it, you might want to know I think it can be difficult for the fabricator to work with. I think it's quite popular and therefore often thought not to be so difficult. But I think there's more to it. I'll gather my thoughts on it some more at another time. If someone's in a hurry, let me know. Thx!

I-chic, you found it! oh no! I know you have a lot of very cute knobs already and I feel guilty for helping to lead you down the onyx path so I didn't want to add yet more budget-busters to your bill -- your DH must be amazingly tolerant :) These knobs are 95% attributable to you and the nice long post you put together a couple of weeks ago. I usually don't do too-cutesy, and my girlfriends thought I was crazy, but the baking/tea/berries all reflect some of my favorite kitchen things, and I figured that if a person with excellent taste (that's you) likes similar knobs, it must be a good idea. If I had room I'd add Fresh Fish/Very Fresh Fish because I have a slightly warped (fishy) sense of humor. So, thank you for the inspiration!