What comes first, builder or architect?

We found it a bit of chicken & egg problem. Without plans, a builder can't give you any kind of cost estimate. Without a builder, your architect may not be (in our experience, was not) able to tell you whether you can afford to build their design.

We found the architect(s) first. When we had a concept we liked, we brought rough drafts to builders we were interviewing, along with a budget. It may not have been the "correct" order, but it worked out. We did a couple of iterations on the design after the builder was onboard, to bring the final plans into the reality of the budget, and to (frankly) sanity-check some of the physical details the architects were speccing on the plans.

Keep in mind that the town's building inspector may impose additional changes, and they may be imposed after construction actually starts. We had several "last-minute" changes, one of which really threw us for a loop (addition of a basement bulkhead walk-up which was not in the plans) and had to be solved that day. The builder (who had built in nearby towns but not this one) and the architects all agreed the changes were not required by code, but the inspector gets the last word. Just prepare yourself emotionally for it to happen. :-)

--Steve

I think foolyap took a very good approach. The architect could suggest builders based on your budget. Let me suggest that you spend the extra money up front and get very detailed plans from the architect. If you're starting from a blank piece of paper, expect to spend over $20,000 on the architect, even with modifying a stock plan, you could quickly approach $10,000. And second, pad the budget. If you're comfortable spending 1.5M, then tell the architect and builder that 1.3M is your budget. Never let either see your bank account.

Don't be surprised if you use all 12 months to get the plans ready. Architects, Builders and Structural Engineers don't move at the speed of business... and it's not just a southern thing down here.

I agree, it's a bit chicken/egg. One thing to note is that builders seem to stick pretty much to a particular size of house, so keep that in mind. It won't affect in skill availability, but I think it does affect the accuracy of the bid. The guy who regularly computes the cost of of 3K sf, often seems to underestimate when it's 4K.

I do like having the builder work with the architect, on a set fee per-hour basis. All too many archs have little experience in the actual build, and again too many have great "concepts" but aren't going to look for the best structural way to apply the idea. Sometimes a minor structural change can make a big difference in the cost. Once the plan is pretty well settled, I'd have a structural engineer (who is not associated with the architect) cast a firm eye on it. Remember that any structural changes made after that should have the engineer's updated approval. Even moving a window over a foot can have a major impact on the overall structural integrity.

If I didn't have the builder right at hand, I would start with the architect... it's going to take lots longer for him/her to translate your ideas than it does for the builder to see if the plans are realistic.

thomas

there is probably no one right answer to any of your questions. I will just offer up what we did and say that it worked.

we purchased our lot in 2003 and did not start looking for a builder until 2005. We started building in 2006. It took 1 year to get the plans finished, permits, and financing plus having our house sold. A 12 to 14 month lead time between starting the plans process and having a dozer on your lot starting to dig the foundation is a reasonable amount of time to get everything done.

The lot already had a well on it and was perked for septic. We also knew that utilities were not going to be an issue. Before you spend a dime on an architect, you have to understand any constraints on building on your land. This could be setback requirements, ordinances on building heights, water, power, septic/sewer etc. Do you need a site development plan (sometimes called a grading plan) done to get a permit to build? If so - this can take several months to complete. You should also look into whether you should classify your project as a remodel (e.g. leave 1 wall up) or new construction - there could tax and permit advantages by doing a "remodel". All of this information should be available through your local/county government. In theory the architect - if local - should know all of these rules & constraints but yuo can't count on that. I believe since it will ultimately be your project and it is your money, you should be in the know on all of these rules before you start spending any big money.

We picked the builder first and we brought him a floor plan that we had already liked but needed some modification (we initially thought very little). The builder had an architect that he worked with on almost every house he built unless the customer insisted on bringing their own architect. The architect he used specialized in taking existing plans and modifying them into a buildable plan matched to my builder's constuction process with the vendors and subs he used. I learned that there are a lot of subtle things in the plan details that if not done correcttly can lead to mistakes in the field that can be costly. So my builder was quite picky on what details needed to be on the plan.

Turns out that there were quite a few mods needed to bring the plan that we bought on line (which was designed by an architect based in Texas) up to our local code (Northern Virginia), and there were other mods like the roof line that were changed (suggested by our builder) to reduce construction costs. The architect also changed the alignment of some walls and expanded some areas (like garages, bathrooms, and closets) to make the house more livable - and those were great changes that we just could not visualize when looking at a 2D paper plan. So having the architect re-do our plan was necessary and worth every penny. We bought the plan on-line for $1200 - then spent another $15K to have them modified. I had initially talked to an architect who wanted to charge us 30 grand and I thought that was too high to modify an existing plan. But if you are starting from scratch with just concepts and building a good size house, 30 grand would probably be a minimum to have an architect create a plan from scratch for you.

I think you can lead with the builder or architect. My recommendation is that if you start with the arhcitect first, you should bring in the builder after you have a good draft set of plans and before you settle on the final plans because in the end - it is the builder who has to deliver within the budget and schedule constraints you have. Our builder had a lot of input into the planning process because he had a much better feel for what materials and labor cost.

We found our builder by talking to the architect that we did not select. I also found out later on in the process that talking to local mortgage bankers who specialize in custom home mortgages are a great place to start when trying to find a good builder. Local real estate agents might be a good source too. Picking the right builder is probably the most important selection you will make in your project - so take your time and do your due diligence.

Good luck with the project.

The architect will be on your side of the contract, the builder will be on the other. Contact the architect first.

Have you considered modular construction? Since you are still wide open, I think you should do some serious research on the subject. A good book you can get used on amazon is PreFabulous. I am really sold on the controlled-climate manufacturing process. Modular firms can do extensive customization (really they can do full custom in some cases) and save you extensive money too. You should also consider SIPs (structurally insulated panels) or, if you really want to go for the ultimate in structural integrity, ICFs (insulated concrete forms). It is my impression that it is really hard to find a builder who is not experienced in these concepts who is willing/able to do it for you. Ditto architects. Conversely builders who do this are a self-selected group that are interested in up-to-date technologies and "going green". Just because you can build a 1.5 mill house doesn't mean that you should do it, or that you can't get a 1.5 mill-like house for less by building smarter and greener. Pick your construction method first and work onward from there.

In my opinion, any house design should start with the nature of the site (restrictions/opportunities), the local environment (cultural/architectural/climatic), your family's life style/personal needs, your design taste (loves & hates) and your budget.

For those who can afford it, the most reliable way to get these tasks accomplished quickly and well is to hire an architect. Alternate approaches often involve a lot of false steps and dead ends which can be very time consuming and exhausting. But even for those who love to do these things themselves, it is important to not skip the important first steps.

If you don't require a completely unique home, are there any new homes in the area that you admire? That might be a starting place -- contacting owners to see how they rate their GC's.

My experience with architects (and that of some others on the forum) is that they don't always know what it will cost to build what they plan. It can work well for many more traditionally-styled homes to find a builder who has a working relationship with an architect -- a 'design/build' firm. Of course you want to see licenses and insurance and have an att'y go over any contracts.

Since your lot is in an established neighborhood, you can visit the city hall to learn what the building codes are and what you will pay for upgrading utilities, a teardown permit, a building permit -- and whether you will have to obtain approval from a Building Review Board regarding the aesthetics of the house. There will probably be rules as to setbacks, height, FAR (Floor Area Ratio to lot size). Some cities want to see tentative plans as you proceed; others will only look at stamped prints. If your GC is a known entity at City Hall (in a good way!), your path will be smoother.

We did what you plan. We bought an old ranch on an acre in an established neighborhood; tore it down; spent a LOT of time fighting with the city's non-legally-empowered but *powerful* volunteer BRB; built a new home. It can feel like grabbing a tiger's tail -- as aggravating when the beast won't budge as when it's chasing you.

It should be noted that mighty is an architect and brings his extensive experience to the forum from that perspective.

The process does no thave to pit the architect and builder on opposite sides. They both work for you, but like everyday life, getting 3 people to agree on things can sometimes be difficult.

It makes sense to find an architect who has worked extensively with a builder or vice versa. It's all about good attitude & communication - and you need a lot of it to pull off a successful build. There is no single right way to do this - you can lead with either builder or architect - but both need to be in the loop and on the same page before you finalize plans and start building.

In the end, the builder is who you typically go on contract with to deliver the final product, not the architect. Architects are typically paid by the hour to provide an advisory service during construction, but they don't typically build the house (there are exceptions).

Keep this in mind during your selection process - who is accountable to deliver the house to you within your cost & schedule constraints. And when you make changes, what will it really cost (must factor in the ripple effects of changes) . Always remember this.

It may save a substantial amount of money to have everyone on the other side of the contract but for a project of this scope it represents a very real, although difficult to quantify, risk.

I recommend that you hire someone with real design and construction knowledge to advise you for the duration of the project even if it is just a home inspector or retired contractor. A good compromise would be a local sole-practitioner architect. Don't hire your own draftsman; an incomplete or inaccurate set of documents would only increase your risk. There have been some good examples here on the forum.

Of course, you can come here and get advice for free but it is often too little too late.

It is true that I am an architect who works for owners rather than builders but I respectfully disagree with sniffdog.

The contractor only "works for you" if he is your employee and you give him direction and pay his salary. However, a homeowner's usual relationship with a builder is contractual, for one project, with the specific tasks, duties, and compensation detailed in a written agreement. A builder and homeowner are equals but on opposite sides of the contract. Not realizing the limitations and obligations of such an arrangement is one of the most frequent causes of trouble in building a home and that is demonstrated on this forum daily.

When an owner begins a project he/she is in control but when a contractor is contracted to design the project, write the contract, build the house, and send you the bill, you will have given up most of that control. Contrary to large commercial builders, most home builders offer little in the way of quality control and assurance so the homeowner is usually asked to rely on the builders knowledge and honesty. I don't know everything but I have never worked with a contractor who didn't make avoidable mistakes or who didn't lack some important construction knowledge and that goes for small and large builders.

It may not seem appropriate or even necessary to many homeowners or home builders, but protection of the owner's interests is the primary responsibility of any architect. How much protection you need usually depends on the cost and complexity of the project and the quality expectations of the owner. I would recommend professional assistance for any project over $1.5 million.

If you select the builder first you cannot bid the project competitively with other builders. I have found the difference between bids to be two or three times my total fee. I grant you that most owners are in too much of a hurry to take advantage of this procedure.

Also, you can hire an architect and ask a builder to provide cost estimates based on regular review meetings. This has worked very well for my clients. You can give the builder a fee for that service or sign a letter of intent if you're sure he's the one you want to use.

Rather than asking a builder what architect he likes to work with, you might consider asking an architect what builder manages projects effectively, provides consistently good quality work, pays attention to the drawings and manufacturers' installation instructions, and works well with architects and other consultants.

It all comes down to who you want to advise you in a difficult, expensive endeavor: yourself or a design professional. I grant you that you will probably never know what was built wrong but for $1.5 million you deserve to have some independent objective assurance that you got what you paid for ... over and above what little assurance you might get from the local building official.

I recommend finding an architect that has built other homes in the area. You could save some money with the work being done on the side rather than thru a firm. I highly recommend going for the more detailed plans and have it specialize the stud size, trim detail, insulation plan, etc. My plans did not include the color of windows trims or brick and it was very difficult to choose once the time came to make the decision. good luck, it will be a beautiful home in Hotlanta for that price!

mighty

will just have to disagree then which I usually do when you make generalizations about architects and the role they should take in building a home. It may work they way you describe when you are involved (in MightyVille) but for others on the forum, their experience is quite different than yours.

In an ideal world - one where we all have money coming out our wazoo's - we would hire the mighty architect to design the home and help us through the entire project. I am sure this is how the Vanderbuilt's, Rockerfeller's and Mellon's of the world had their homes built. But for the common person - we don't have that kind of financial resource available. It is a luxury to be able to hire an architect - but it is also not a necessity for your typical home or even one worth 1.5M.

It is great if you can afford to have an architect involved in the project - we sure are glad we had one help us make our plan into what we wanted. However, I would never want Charlie (our architect) to ever set foot on my property with a hammer in his hand or worse - to try and get a sub to do a job right - for that would truly be a disaster indeed. That is the job of the builder - and without a good one - you are sunk!

It doesn't matter who you start talking to first (architect or builder - flip a coin.) The plan does come first, but the builder needs to be in the loop before you go final to make sure it is indeed buildable within your budget and schedule (unless you have money coming out the wazoo!). Read the posts - see how many times people have had architects create plans only to find out that the cost the builder gave them is way outside their budget.

sniffdog, I find your snide comments uncalled for and offensive. When people ask for advice on this forum others should be allowed to offer theirs without being ridiculed.

If you knew even a little about me, my clients, and my practice, you would realize that you owe me an apology for your inaccurate assumptions and unkind characterizations.

I'm a homeowner who wishes everyday that we had engaged the professional services of an architect from the beginning. There is never a time that a homeowner and the builder are on the same side of the table. It always has the potential to become contentious. If you haven't experienced it, then IMO, give it time and it will or you are allowing your builder to take advantage of you.

I think there are times when you can find a stock plan and have minor modifications made to it by a designer and be completely fine, but I think that based on the OP's original comments that he/she would be better served by engaging the services of a professional architect at the beginning (due to the scope of the project...not necessarily the cost). I quite like the suggestion by mightyanvil of involving a builder in the cost analysis during the planning stage and feel that this would be a good use of money. I do not recommend signing on with a builder or even working closely with a builder until after the plans are finalized and you are in a place to be able to bid them out competitively. Doing so before that time gives away all of your leverage! Isn't that part of the reason to build custom instead of with a tract builder or instead of buying a spec home??? So that you maintain a level of control over the project? There is no way for you to do so if you give away all of your bargaining chips as soon as you sit down at the table.

I will caveat all of the above by stating that we have had a very difficult build...24 months and counting. Mistakes during construction costing time and money would have been avoided or mitigated with an architect in our corner. We will never build again, regardless of if our budget in the future is $250K or $2M, without an architect involved from the beginning to the end of the project.

(And this is from someone who has a very good contract that protects our rights and who has maintained leverage throughout the build...I can't even imagine what building a house would be like without those two things.)

I totally agree with mightyanvil.

For that kind of location and investment, you need to start with an architect.

Thanks to everyone for their generous input! This is great feedback.

Some more info.

+ Just to be clear. I have $500k in the lot and am thinking of a $1MM construction budget for a total price of $1.5MM (for my project). Most of the new houses in the area go for at least this much and many are going for $2MM+ now because the lots cost so much. I've been told that lot price in the area is about 1/3 of sales price generally speaking, so I think I'm in line with my construction budget.

Some more questions.

+ Assuming I start with the architect, what do I need to have prepared head of time to begin this process? Do I need to have a survey of my property done?

+ Does the architect generally start by meeting you at your lot and eyeballing it in person so they can get a lay for the land and surroundings?

+ How do you pay the architect when you're just getting started? I guess you have to pay cash for this since the construction financing doesn't come until later. This can be quite expensive though right? I'm curious how folks have handled this. Do you structure it in a way so that you can roll the architecture costs into the financing for the house somehow?

+ How often do architects re-use plans or elements of plans? I'm hoping this can be done to save money on the architecture portion. I have been through two of the houses by this architect and really like several elements about them and would want to have those same elements in my house. I don't need the most unique house in town. But I do want something that fits my lot (not a plan from the internet that has to be shoehorned).

Thanks again for all the help!

By the way, here are some pics of his work that I really like. (Note: these houses are in the $3MM - $5.5MM range which is way outside my budget but illustrate the beauty of his work)

mighty

I find your advise - when it comes to the construction process and builders - completely biased and misleading. I have been on this forum for years - and witnessed others who share my view and get into arguments with you about the same thing. The last time this happened, you took your toys and went home. Some were saddened by this, others quite happy to see you leave.

I agree that you should be allowed to post whatever you like. HOWEVER, as a professional you should start your posts, particularly to new posters, by making a disclaimer that you are an architect. At least then the poster knows where your views are coming from, which are naturally biased toward your view of the world. And there is nothing wrong with that - unless the people reading the post don't know it.

Your negative attitude toward any suggestion that the builder play a key role in the design and planning process is quite apparent, and not universally shared. I believe that is poor advise to be providing to people who are getting ready to build. And that is the reason that I am spending the time to take you on in this thread.

I just went through a custom build within cost parameters that thomas posted - so I have recent relevant experience as a homeowner to share with him. I can tell you that the architect in my build played a key role in the beginning of the project, but had nothing to do with managing the construction of the house. And it was in fact my builder who forced a number of changes into the plan early in the process (after talking to us first) that ultimtaley led to cost savings. Had the architect been left alone to run open loop with no builder input, we would not have been able to build the house within the budget we had - not by a long shot.

So you can start with the architect, but don't put those plans on contract until they have been scrubbed by your builder. You can use draft plans to get bids (if you go that route) but be prepared to make mods before you go final. I also think that the earlier you get the builder involved, the better off you will be to get insight into the costs, which for most is the number one concern when doing a custom build.

Chicken/egg. Egg/chicken. If you find a builder who's rep is good and you like his work, start with him and get his referrals for architects. If you find an architect who's rep is good and you like his work, start with him and get his referrals for builders. If you have one of each and they don't know each other, you better get them introduced early in the planning stage.

There is no one-and-only set-in-granite way to do things. There are steps/methods/ideas/things that work out better, more often, for most of us, but that doesn't make a guarantee that all will go well for you. Builders and architects will have the same proportion of good, reliable, helpful folks as you would find in any other pair of professions. There will also be those that aren't, just as in all the other walks of life. All you can do is check referrals carefully, and have the most detailed contract possible. And if the builder and architect don't get along, replace the one who irritates you the most.

thomassmith64

You should call the architect that you like and ask him your questions. These are easy questions for an architect to answer; it's what he does at the beginning of every project. If he wants the job he'll give you a lot of good professional advice for free in the first meeting.

Also ask what his role will be, what the schedule might be, who will do the actual design, who will run the project, who will meet with you (and how often), who will design the mech/elect systems, how much of the kitchen and interior finishes he will design/specify, how he likes to monitor costs during the design phase, his approach to energy conservation, what kind of contract and bidding methods might work best in your situation (Fixed Sum, Cost of the Work w/GMP, etc), and how he handles construction phase observation (site visits).

It would help to have a list of the important activities to be housed in your new home (not just a list of rooms). Ask how he structures his fees for basic architectural design services, mech. and structural engineering services, including "additional services" like regulatory hearings, computer modeling, etc. If the fee seems too high ask him how it might be reduced. You won't be the first to ask.

Also ask for a project/client list and call some of them. Perhaps some will offer to let you see their homes.

I would give him the site address so he could drive by it but I would meet him at his office in order to learn more about him and his staff and perhaps get to spend more time with him.

If you are curious about the results of contractor "scrubbing" of projects just search the forum for "contractor problem" or similar phrases.

Good luck with your project.

I think of an architect as the true builder of the home. I didn't have that opinion due to lack of knowledge until Mighty as well as others on this forum defined the true services offered by a reputable architect and what they can do do for the potential homeowner. A reputable builder has a lot on their plate as well when overseeing a project, so if you can find a decent architect/builder team with solid reputations willing to work together for the benefit of the potential homeowner, then you have struck gold!

Sierraeast
I understand what you mean but I think it would be more accurate to say the owner is the true builder of the home.
Everyone else is just providing the services needed to get it done.

There are many ways to structure those services and the final choice has to do not only with cost and quality control but also with the level of expectation of the owner and his/her knowledge, skill, and time. In my opinion, when you get over a million dollars the cost of an architect's fee should not be the deciding factor.

Good point!

Here are some photos of well documented details by architects and engineers that were subsequently "scrubbed" by a contractor. All of them were accepted by the local building inspectors. I couldnt find the photo of the 6 inch piece of a steel beam flange that a plumber removed for a vent pipe and then hid with drywall when the engineer inspected the structure.
All of these contractors have good reputations and I would use most of them again, but with more frequent site visits. I will not work on a project that doesn't include my observation of the construction phase.

Here are some useful links to the same subject that are worth a read all the way through. You can also find more by doing a seach on this forum using "out of control architects" as the search criteria. It will provide answers to many of your questions.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0515054225085.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0112113111116.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0401445728164.html

This generalization is also a crock "In my opinion, when you get over a million dollars the cost of an architect's fee should not be the deciding factor. "

If all you need is a modification to an exisiting plan, and you are on a tight budget, the architect fee will be a deciding factor in that selection regardless of house price. Again mighty - it's all about perspective.

I did not select one particular architect becuase he wanted 30 grand to modify an existing plan and I already had estimates from others (thank you GW) that it sould have been much less than that. This guy looked at my plan - saw the size of the house - and then established his price, instead of costing the job based on how much time he needed to do what I needed done.

A million dollars is a lot of money - but when you start building it can disappear very quickly depending on what and where you are building. An full blown plan starting from scratch can cost between 3 and 5% of the total house
value which translates into 30 to 50 grand. That is significant on a million dollar project.

(reference of house plan costs : "How to Be Your Own Contractor" - a very good book on building - that you can get on Amazon)

When you start with the architect - think about those dollar bills you worked so hard for (and saved for your new home) flowing into someone else's hands. Ask them about how many hours your job will take and what they charge per hour. Ask them if they will do your work (if you have a plan that just needs mods - and you know what those mods are) for a firm fixed price. That should give you a good reality check. Then before you sign up - ask them what builders they like to work with and go talk to the builders.

Ask the builders about the architect - do they like working with them. What is their experience in using the plans from that architect and building to within customer expecations (cost, schedule, overall happinees with the hosue.) Ask those builders which architects they prefer to work and go talk to them. This will give you another reality check.

All of this costs you zippo in dollars (just some time) but you will learn a lot.

Good luck thomas.

Thomas wants a custom designed home that is well suited to his site and documented in a complete set of drawings so he can know what he is buying. For a million dollar house that requires a lot of work by a skilled person. He's not going to get it for free from a builder or for a few hundred dollars from an internet plan mill. What he might save is closer to $25,000 and any architect could save him that much just by monitoring the work of the builder. So the better quality design essentially comes for free.

Sniffdog's links do not support his argument. Anthem summed it up well:
"But if you take the entire group of architects and the entire group of builders - you are much more likely to be cheated out of your money by builders than architects... So be careful where you place your trust in home building."

mighty

here you go again - using one person's response (of the hundred's of posts on those threads) to make an argument. The point of the threads is that there were many differing opinions on the experiences with the architect - and it is worth reading through all of the them to make an opinion. If you carefully read the threads you will see that some people had a bad expience with the architect - and it is those experiences that one can learn about what might or might not work for the person reading the thread.

I did not say that using an internet plan would only cost a few hundred dollars either. I did say (if you put your glasses on and really read my post above)that we used an internet plan and then had the architect modify if for $15K. Bu that fee was a lot less than the architect who wanted 30 grand (his initial estimate of course - it was a fee by the hour payment so we all know where that was heading) to do the same thing. I also said I was glad we had Charlie - or architect - but was equally glad that our builder kept him in check. They got along but did not always see eye to eye, and that made our plan better. The debate was healthy.

As far as thomas - how do you know exactly what he wants. Oh I forgot - in MightyVille you can read people's minds. You never met the man - haven't talked extensively to him. But you did tell him to run out and get an architect - and why wouldn't you - you are an architect. Ka Ching (I just heard the cash register starting to rev up).

I suggest thmoas post a new thread and ask worthy or other builders on this forum and get their opinion. It would be quite intersting to see what they had to say about the opinion of the great almighty mighty, all knowing, all doing, super builderarchitectphilosopher of mightyville. Ask those guys who the "true builders" are - and how they see the role of the architect, both during the planning phase and during contruction. Ask them what happens when clients start with an architect - with no builder input - and then come to them wanting to build a 2 million dollar dream plan creation by the architect (hope they don't live in mightyville) for a buck 25.

I could not find them, but there were two notable threads on this forum by people in the atlanta area who ran into this problem. One person had the name charlie or charles and the other BJ in their post names. Their stories were quite illuminating on the huge let down of arhcitect running amuck and driving the dream right into the ground. The fact that they were gung hoe on the build in the beginning (BJ was a prolific poster) , had the crash when the builder gave them pricing (after all that planning and money spent) , and then stopped posting might be a clue! I wonder if the architects ever got paid?

Wow, we have quite a lovely debate going! I'm actually getting alot out of this and it definitely shows me that I need to keep doing my homework and talking to as many architects and builders as possible.

I definitely want something custom for my lot, but also don't want to overwhelm my budget with lots of architect fees. I may be getting lucky. I found out this week that one of the architects that works at the architecture firm that designed the houses I posted pictures of has since gone out on his own. I'm hoping he is going to be significantly less expensive as an independent with drastically lower overheard than that of the big firm he was working for. I also found out that the firm I've been eyeballing is a $100k type firm, meaning that it what it's going to take to get one of their designs. That's alot of money to me, but I'm green at this point so it may just be the "going rate". I think I'd rather be closer to $50k though so that I have as much of my budget as possible dedicated to the build and the very high-end finishes that I want to use (marble countertops, mahogany doors, cedar shake roof, etc.)

I'm going to meet with a friend this weekend that is a builder. Hopefully he can at least give me some additional perspective. I don't think he'd be interested in doing my project because he's about a 45 minute drive away (in good traffic), but perhaps he will be. At any rate, he can at least be a source of knowledge and reason.

Not that it matters, but bjinatlanta stopped posting because of a different issue...not because her architect gave her a higher price than she anticipated.

There are obviously two sides to every coin. I am one who firmly feels that between an architect and a builder it is the architect who would most likely be in the owner's corner whereas the builder is almost always in the opposing corner. Others obviously disagree.

Interestingly enough, in real life (meaning not on this forum) I have never heard one single complaint about the cost of an architect's services nor one single complaint that the architect drew up a plan that was unusable because it bid out too high. However, amongst my neighbors where my house is being constructed, I have only had two people tell me that they were pleased with their builder and would use them again. And, all of the builders in the neighborhood have the absolute best reputations in our town and only build "high-end" homes.

It's interesting that this is so different amongst posters here...

Are you building in the Brookhaven or Chastain area? Sounds like you may have Brian Smith as your architect? Anyway I am at the permitting stage and when you have to deal with the City of Atlanta you are dealing with complete and utter incompetence. Good luck and hope you are not in the city. BTW, the arborist sucks as well.

Let me make a suggestion that hasn't been addressed here that we used in Dallas. It is becoming more and more common and, from our experience, is an excellent way to go. Look for a design/build firm.

The small firm we used was owned by a husband-wife team. Both were architects-almost (I don't know the proper term). By that I mean they both were grads of architecture from a major university they worked for one of the top 5 national commercial architecture firms here in Dallas.

Before they completed whatever it is one has to "complete" to be Texas-legally called "architect" they struck out on their own, renovating homes and also designing homes for a boutique home builder. Sooner than you know it, they were doing major renovations, and then designing and building their own modern homes for people with their own lots (like us). All their work -- reno's or complete design builds -- ran in a range then of 350k - about 650k. Now they do 450-1 million+! They also stick to one inner area of Dallas and design/build about 1 dozen house a year now.

We spent 6 months coming to a final design, based on 3 different sketches, after a lot of interviews. They walked our lot morning/noon/night to see the sun angles. They had our legal survey. They charged us an hourly fee for all this, and it resulted in construction-ready plans that we could have them bid or give to someone else. After 6 months, we were so comfortable we sole bid them. They were now our GC and we could talk to them anytime. It was WONDERFUL and we never had any of the bad experiences I shudder to read here daily.

I am sure that a model similar to this -- perhaps even run by a civil engineer with right-brain talent, whatever -- exist in every large city. I Googled atlanta+design/build+homes and came up with 2 that look worth a call and talking to them and their clients. In our experience, such a solution covered everything so thoroughly and so practically that your chicken-egg search may be over if you find one in Atlanta. Also, talk to realtors in your area -- they are the first to know of such new firms, as that's how ours started their first 100% design-builds -- partnered with a successful realtor on his teardown lots!

Good luck!

This gives you an idea of who ours was:
http://www.w2-studio.com/

here's the ones I found in Atlanta in 5 seconds:
http://www.homerebuilders.com/

http://www.avenuehomesga.com/

frankenfish:

I haven't selected an architect yet. The one I have been writing about my interest in is Keith Summerour (www.summerour.net). I am in the Chastain Park area, but Sandy Springs instead of City of Atlanta (thank god - I think).

Where are you building?

dallasbill:

Thanks for the heads up! I will definitely investigate design/build firms.

dallasbill
The design/build firm you used is impressive. Since both principals have worked the number number of years before taking the NCARB registration exam, I would guess that they didn't complete their degree at Oklahoma since their profiles don't mention what degree they got there and when. Since a degree in architecture is always a graduate degree it is usually shown on a resume. The lack of architectural registration only prevents them from using the title "architect" or the description "architectural" (and similar terms) and from designing anything other than single-family houses up to a certain size and perhaps townhouses. Of course, some local jurisdictions require a stamp for any building but that is rare.

Having just completed a house in the $1.5MM range ($500K lot -- which fortunately we bought 21 years ago for $80K -- and $1MM construction cost), I can tell you that there is no "right" answer when it comes to architects, engineers, contractors, design-build firms, etc. Even with significant experience in working with architects and contractors (we develop multifamily housing and have worked in every state except Alaska and Vermont in the last 30 years), we had several missteps in getting our own house built (upscale single family is very different from multifamily).

I think there are several keys to a successful build:

(1) For a $1MM house in the Atlanta area, you need an architect and you will probably need an engineer (don't know the requirements in Sandy Springs for "seals"). Find one that you are comfortable with and one who has experience with the area and type of house you want to build. Talk to references. Find out how good he/she is with designing something that can be built within budget. Don't be shy about arguing with the architect about exactly what you want.

(2) Everything in (1) applies equally to the builder.

(3) If you go cost plus rather than bid on the construction, the role of the architect, once construction starts, is not as important. If you bid, the opposite is true.

(4) Make sure you understand all the design costs. There may be engineering plans required that are not part of the architects drawings. In our case, we had a very steep lot that required a significant amount of engineering drawings ($20K) for the foundation and some steel support structure.

I could go on, but the most important points are to find pros that you are conmfortable with, check references, question everything, and don't stop questioning until you get answers that makes sense.

Oops, I forgot. Visit this forum often!

Here are a few other links your might find worth reading all the way through. The first link discusses an architecture firm in the Atlanta area that someone recommended, the second deals with architecture costs for various services, and the third is about kitchen design which I think has relevance to both the planning costs and the role of the architect discussed in this thread.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0421371310723.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0713521327354.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/build/msg0116363613249.html

A word of caution on the design/build approach. Make sure that they aren't simply outsourcing the design work and adding their fee on top. I ran into that situation where after pressing the builder about who on their staff provided that function, he fessed up and said that they sub contracted that out to an architect they like to work with. I immediately crossed them off the list for 2 reasons: 1) I thought it was dishonest to call themselves a design/build firm when they really were just a builder and 2) there is no need to pay a fee on top of an already enormous fee when I could have just payed the enormous fee to the architect directly.

When reading the posts, look for responses by "worthy". He is a builder and well respected on this forum.

Thanks mightyanvil -- they are very awesome!

(They don't list 'degree in architecture' to avoid the misjudgment of "architect" from the lay community -- a very smart/prescient business decision if you ask me. It had something to do with a rolling 5 yr clock for taking the last licensure-exam component came, coupled with an opportunity/passion for design/build.)

dallasbill
That makes sense; the current exam is divided up into sections that are taken at different times. When I did it you had to take all of the exams over 4 days and them take the parts you failed 6 months later. It was painful but it forced you to get it done.

Thomas,

I was the project manager on the second house you pictured, and have since started my own firm. Let me know if you would be interested in chatting.

Thomas - I have to disagree about going modular. If you want a truly custom high-end home, stick-build. We have a semi-custom modular (I modified a stock floor plan and showed a pic of exterior I liked to builder's regional rep who did elevations for us). They missed things like centering the bathroom window on the wall b/t the tub and corner (plans didn't show how deep tub and soffit were), lighting and outlet placement, have had bad framing issues (high/low/twisted studs, drywall past window jambs in some places, under it in others so trim doesn't lie flat, cracked main beam), etc. My cousin who is a carpenter (has done structural and finish) and cabinetmaker says that this is typical of stick-built construction as well, but basically (whether modular or stick-built) it's all time (get it done as quickly as possible) and materials (they didn't want to "waste" drywall so used cut edges on corners and built them up so baseboard doesn't lie flat, they used 16ft long pieces of baseboard and scarfed them with smaller pieces even if cutting 6 inches off the 16ft and making the smaller piece 6" longer would have put the joint over a stud). There are "custom" or high-end builders who will (for higher price) make sure that the finished product *looks* good as well as being structurally sound. It costs more to frame/drywall to make things easier for the finish carpenter, but I believe it would look much better than having to skim out walls or cut and caulk drywall just to get the trim to lie flat and mitre joints to stay together.

Have your architect design the house paying attention to details (like my bathroom windows - one too close to tub, the other right above where we were going to put a stovepipe for woodstove) and make sure he keeps an eye on the builder to make sure it actually gets built to the plans (again, I had final plans and certain outlets/switches/vent stack locations got changed during production). I don't know if an architect will actually check that framing is straight though a good GC should.

There may be higher-end "custom" modular companies out there, but my company supposedly did "custom" and were one of the oldest, respected companies out there, but the framing and the finish work was not up to my expectations. We're working around the framing as best we can, and redoing the trim and some of the electrical. Eventually we'll get around to replacing the poorly-installed laminate countertops (probably with the same laminate, I picked it and like it, didn't want solid surface or stone with kids right now).

Wow, my architect cost me about $1200 for 3800 ft^2. Of course, I did all the conceptual design and fed him engineering drawings as I went.