This is screaming fire in a crowded theater. :)

Brand selection aside, what do you mean by "don't need to have the 22,000 BTUs of the BlueStar"? Do you feel that it's too much power? Or do you think it's too expensive? If it's the expense, then Wolf and Thermador shouldn't even enter the discussion.

I guess what I'm getting at is what are you looking for in a new range? Power? (seems like not) Brand recognition? Resale value? A particular look or feature? Without first answering those questions, it'll be hard for you to narrow down your list. For instance if you love the Wolf brand name and nothing else matters, then of course Wolf *is) worth whatever it costs.

If its the best cost performance combination but you don't *need* the 22k Nova burners, then you might consider a BS RCS. If, on the other hand, you hate open burners and must have sealed, then I can't help you. :) IMHO, go for the most power you can afford in a true open burner design like BS (RCS/RNB) or Capital Culinarian. You may think you don't "need" the power but if it fits within your budget then it's better to have it than not.

So, the answer to your question is, "no" unless you really want the Wolf badge on your range. I'll probably get flamed by all the Wolf owners out there but that's just my opinion. Keep in mind this is only referring to the "made for residential" ranges of the last decade or so. Older commercial or commercial conversion to residential ranges are built like tanks and designed to cook and not much else.

I just went through this same process. The answer I came up with is that a wolf appliance package will look good and possibly make your home more attractive for re-sale. There are choices that will cook better and give you better quality for far less money.

The "Wolf badge" is much more than that. The Wolf is one quality unit. Perfection in fit, finish, and looks. Customer satisisfaction start to finish. Quality you feel and touch every time you cook. Top of the line customer service. Pride and joy for me.

OK no super high power burner. If you think you need that to be a good cook you are mistaken. A flame can ony get so hot. btu is not a measurement of temperature.

Get the Wolf if that is what you want.

On the other hand there are many good ranges/tops to be had and it is not the determining factor in how your food will taste. That is up to the cook.

Only you tell what you want out of a range. I have a Wolf range and love it. I haven't run across anything I can't cook, bake or roast. The top cleans up well. I was considering Bluestar and drove from St. Louis to Memphis to see it. We decided we didn't want to have to hope it would be serviced and they were having trouble with the ignitors and doors. I did like the open burners and the infrared broiler. We had just come out of a nightmare situation with appliances so we wanted to make sure service would be good. FWIW, I agree with John.com if you know haw to cook you can do that on any range. Some do make it easier. Actually I really appreciate the low end of the heat range on the burners. All 6 burners have a pretty low simmer and then one is super low. Around here Viking is the big deal. I'm not sure how many even know what a Wolf is.

If you think you need that to be a good cook you are mistaken.

If "good enough" is good enough then Frigidaire Gallery is more than enough if you know how to cook.

BTU is not a measure of heat but if you think BTU does not impact temperature you are mistaken. It is not like 17k btu sealed burner engineers are brilliant and 22k/23k btu open burner engineers are complete dolts.

If you think altering the temperature and therefore time you use to cook food does not alter the taste and/or appearance of a finished dish then you are mistaken.

If you think the eveness of heat afforded by a good open burner vs the outer ring (and sometimes tiny inner ring)flame of a sealed burner throwing much of the heat to the outer ring of a pan does not affect certain dishes end result you are mistaken.

Thanks for the input. To answer some of your questions, my main reasons for considering the Wolf are the fit and finish, history of reliability, and oven size (larger than Thermador ProHarmony, and yet still almost flush with standard counter depth). I'm totally gutting and renovating my 100+ year old house, and after all this construction is done, I don't plan on moving anytime soon, so resale value isn't that much of an issue for me. I can get a great deal on a GE Monogram at a local store, but haven't seen much of anything about them on the web.

I cook every night for my family of 5, but haven't had the time to cook for pleasure in a while (i.e. bake, make any meal that takes longer than half an hour to prepare, etc.). I'm hoping once the renovation is done I'll be able to get back to that! Currently, I use the low and simmer settings more often than high heat (primarily to boil water, stir fry, etc.) I'm also debating between 6 burners and a griddle (I've heard the grills are hard to clean and don't produce results that different from stepping outside and using an outdoor grill). Ultimately what I want is something that's reliable, relatively easy to clean and care for, with a decent oven capacity and that's fun to use.

Other than Capital (the one I looked at had a really small oven) and BlueStar, what other brands/models would anyone recommend?

Currently, I use the low and simmer settings more often than high heat

Both Bluestar and Culinarian have better and more even simmering than Wolf.

The only advantage to sealed burners is "cleanability" when sauce is spilled directly on them. If it spills to the side the sealed burners catch the sauce between the burner and the "top plate." On the open burners sauce falls to drip tray.

Culinarian will go to the mat with Wolf on quality and customer service.

Bluestar not so much.

The 36" Culinarian oven will hold a full size commericial sheet.

Other than Capital (the one I looked at had a really small oven)

The burners in the Culinarian ovens have been lowered relative to the Precision ovens, giving more useable space.

All of the main ovens in the Culinarian can roast a 25 lbs turkey. The oven cavity in the 30" range is 24" so it will not hold a full size commericial sheet. But it has alot more insulation versus 30" ranges that can and have a very cool door while the oven is on relative to most ranges.

I have a Wolf rangetop and Wolf double ovens. I'm very happy with the way they cook and thrilled to finally have something I enjoy cooking with again (I've had two different dying kitchens for the 7 years before). I find it hard to believe another brand simmers better or that you don't get enough power from Wolf. I can melt chocolate in a pan directly on the burner (no double boiler), walk away and come back without concern. Not saying I'd do that for lengths of time, but I have left the room and come back in a few minutes -- no problem.

But what has absolutely sold me on the Wolf more than anything is their customer service. I've had no issues with the rangetop, but I received a damaged oven that was repaired then later had an electrical problem that nearly started a fire. They pulled it no questions. The replacement started having some issues after a while and I dreaded calling. I thought that if I had another problem it was time to pick something else. I finally called and explained my hesitation to the rep. The rep couldn't have been nicer or more supportive. She assured me they wanted me to be happy and I needed to call to let them take care of it. They did take care of it and have done everything they reasonably could to make sure I am happy with Wolf. And I am.

I can't tell you that Wolf is worth more for you or that you wouldn't be just as happy with something less and more money elsewhere but I can tell you that I don't have any reason not to buy them again, even after my oven issues.

BTW, I would get 6 burners and a separate griddle.

I find it hard to believe another brand simmers better or that you don't get enough power from Wolf.

The first point is true and the second depends.

But let me say the Wolf range is a very good range.

Just not the best.

Some chocolate is more delicate than others and some sauces are more delicate than others.

Some chocolate you can melt over any standard range using just a simple pot.

You can get a good sear on just about any range using a good pan or griddle.

But you need really good power to get a good crust on a steak AND have it rare or medium rare on the inside. And a burner that spreads the heat evenly really helps to have the steak with consistent doneness. Again, really good cookware can makeup for a lack of power or even heat to a degree.

IF you enjoy your steak,for example, medium-well or well done then just about any range can do that.

deeageaux, how are you comparing the the simmers? Data please.

We have had no trouble cooking a rare steak, well crusted on the Wolf or my previous Gemini range for that matter.

Marimoose, you might consider this and have the option of 6 burners when you need them.

Here is a link that might be useful: lift off griddle

>>If "good enough" is good enough then Frigidaire Gallery is more than enough if you know how to cook.

? it's early and i'm confused easily

>>BTU is not a measure of heat

actually it is. it is not a measurement of temperature

>>but if you think BTU does not impact temperature you are mistaken.

i dont think that and am i not mistaken

>>If you think altering the temperature and therefore time you use to cook food does not alter the taste and/or appearance of a finished dish then you are mistaken.

i agree. i learned early on that if you cook a burger too long and at too high a temperature it may not taste good, and it may become black in appearance.

>>If you think the eveness of heat afforded by a good open burner vs the outer ring (and sometimes tiny inner ring)flame of a sealed burner throwing much of the heat to the outer ring of a pan does not affect certain dishes end result you are mistaken.

maybe my mind is being read here, just not being done very well

ANY cooking tool is only as good as the operator.

Given the large differences in users, I don't find blanket statements of superiority helpful in making informed decisions. Furthermore, differences in heat levels do not necessarily translate into noticeable differences in the finished dish.

We've had a Wolf AG for 7 years and here are my experiences: the simmer on the Wolf is not as even as burners with a wider spread(as evidenced by surface activity in long sauce reductions), but a test of actual temperature differences in different parts of the stock pot were max a few degrees. This is not exactly a culinary disaster. We use 12" or 14" for pan broiling and one can make an outstanding rare or MR pan seared steak and pan sauces. It's true that the flame spread is more to the outside for smaller pans. Stirfry is problematic on the Wolf if you use the wok grate or rest the wok on the regular grate. We rest the wok directly on the burner cap and it's a significant improvement, but more work. The grill on the Wolf is spectacular and for our grilling of steaks and sword is superior to a NG Weber outside grill. It takes about 10 minutes to clean. The IR burner sears like charcoal versus regular gas which is pretty much conduction/convection heat. The oven door gets hot with high heat oven temps. Service has been very good: one call on initial installation problems and replacing the oven IR broiler igniter ($285). The top burners can get a little fussy when the oven is on high (550F), but it doesn't influence actual use.

I'm considering a Culinarian for better stirfry, self cleaning, a convec broil and cooler external temps; my wife thinks I'm nuts. Ironically, the one real stickler is the Culinarian grill which is not IR, and the rotisserie which we probably wouldn't use. But for much of my cooking, the Wolf is fine.

If you haven't been to the Culinarian piece of the Eurostoves web site (you might be the only poster on the planet who hasn't), Trevor's comparisons are wonderfully informative and IMO pretty much spot on. FWIW, I cooked for large group on a GE Monogram propane and was impressed. The sealed burners seemed as hot or hotter than my Wolf; the construction seemed a bit lighter.

deeageaux, how are you comparing the the simmers? Data please.

I don't have data just experience. I never claimed to run scientifically valid test.

If you think the eveness of heat afforded by a good open burner vs the outer ring (and sometimes tiny inner ring)flame of a sealed burner throwing much of the heat to the outer ring of a pan does not affect certain dishes end result you are mistaken.

maybe my mind is being read here, just not being done very well

It looked to me that is what you were implying. That is why I said "if".

Touché on the heat vs temerpature comment. That is what I get for posting past midnight right before bed.

ANY cooking tool is only as good as the operator.

We can all agree on that.

Given the large differences in users, I don't find blanket statements of superiority helpful in making informed decisions.

I find trying to qualify everything ad infinitum for every possible exception,no matter how rare the case, not helpful when someone is asking for advice on the purchase of an appliance.

Furthermore, differences in heat levels do not necessarily translate into noticeable differences in the finished dish.

That is true for some dishes like stews. Seared steak or ahi tuna it makes a very noticeable differences.

Both Bluestar and Culinarian have better and more even simmering than Wolf.

deeageaux, how are you comparing the the simmers? Data please.

I don't have data just experience. I never claimed to run scientifically valid test.

I thought maybe you had BTU ratings. So that would be your subjective opinion. Just clarifying.

I purchased my DF (dual fuel) Wolf 5 years ago, have cooked on it more than any other range I've owned...because now I'm retired, love to entertain and have a huge amount of house guests. Over the past 5 years, I've cooked on & in the range extensively.

I must admit I get tired of some of the snide comments made about Wolf on the Appliance forum....and most of the comments are not made by people who own the range and have lived with the range. Many of the comments are made by people who sell ranges other than Wolf. I've always thought it interesting that Wolf has no spokes person on this forum, other than its satisfied (in almost all cases) customers.

What I can tell you is that this is the best range I've ever cooked on. I've never seen anything like the smaller burner (max BTU 9,000) that allows me to simmer soups all day, keep delicate sauces from curdling with minimal oversight, melt chocolate and turn my attention to other things in the kitchen. The low level heat for this low burner is phenomenal. The other 3 burners have max BTU output of 15,000...which is more than adequate for everything I cook. I am delighted with the DF oven, too -- especially the convection roast or bake functions...And the temperature probe is just super duper for producing the most beautiful roasts, cooked to perfection.

My cooking tends to be sophisticated, and my friends call me "gourmet", and this range knocks my socks off.

What is invaluable for me is that I have never had a second's problem with anything on this range. Never. I've never had igniters that spark independently, I've never had to lubricate an oven hinge, I've never had the oven door stick, fail to open, fail to shut. No problem of any sort at all.

I think people who pay more than $2,500 for a range are entitled to trouble-free cooking...and maintenance free cooking. The Wolf will give you that, and I don't think you'll ever regret spending the money for a Wolf.

I plan to live in this remodeled kitchen for the rest of my life, and I have no regrets or second thoughts about my decision to purchase a Wolf. Good luck with your selection.

Now back to the comments from the salesmen (women?) who visit this forum .....

Another happy Wolf owner, we put in the 60in DF range when we built 3 years ago. I love it, I cook a lot for family and entertaining. No service problems at all, great features and it looks great in our house. Its attributes seem very adequate for my cooking needs.

Not why sure those that don't have one like to bash them. Particularly amongst those that seem to be remodeling their kitchens, it is ok to buy very high end cabinets, expensive tile splashes, exotic granites, and so on but consider spending money on a "Wolf" and oh my, the comments are so negative. They may not be for everyone, but I love mine.

{{gwi:1456124}}

And I don't understand the defensive posture of the wolf owners. Everyone reading gets that they are expensive, well built and look good. Some people have given their reasons for other choices. I really don't see any slams against wolf appliances in this thread.

Viva la differencia

Excuse me for asking a pretty obvious question but I still don't understand how deeageaux can have actual experience cooking on a Culinarian range when the first ranges won't be out until the end of this month?

It seems fair to provide some sort of explanation to go with the claim that it's better than a Wolf, the leading pro range. I am not a Wolf range owner.

gregfl - you are right, this thread really wasn't a "slam".

I think we are "defensive" from remarks on other threads that did bash, some of which are fairly recent. I know I am. I should have read this one more carefully.

Of course, each to his own. And many of us (no matter what we have in our kitchens) would never, ever make negative comments about other brands, let alone the owners.

Thanks for the observation. Me bad.

All I know is that I very very rarely have read about problems with Wolf products, and there have been lots of threads about problems with others. I am looking at 36 inch rangetops and the guy at the local appliance store (whose advice has been spot on everything else I have read about every appliance I have asked about with regard to reliablity, service calls, etc.) told me today that it is possible and maybe likely that I could buy a Wolf rangetop and not have a problem for 20 years, maybe even longer. They are that well built and trouble free. That is worth the extra 900 bucks to me over some of the competing brands.

I've been on this forum for a while and for a long time there was a preponderance of BlueStar groupies who looked down on other ranges. Comments like Wolf is for looks, BlueStar is for cooks.

Now they've all jumped ship to the Capital Culinarian which has not yet shipped but has good advance press from those who've tried it out.

There are also open burner snobs who look down on those of us with sealed burners as though we settled for something inferior.

Frankly, I'm convnced that with ranges as with other appliances, there is no one best choice, no one-size fits all. There are a number of good products and people with different needs, requirements, budgets, etc.

For the record, I'm very pleased with my DCS sealed burner range. The simmer on all burners is incredible and the high heat on the 17.5 and 16K burners is excellent. I stir fry all the time, people rave about my food, and I don't end up steaming the food despite having sealed burners.
As far as searing steaks, I don't. I always do steaks under the broiler and they come out phenomenal. I chose this range over Bluestar for a variety of reasons 8 years ago and hearing about the oven door problems on the Bluestar, I'm glad I did. These days, the Capital Culinarian would certainly be under consideration for me as would a few other brands.

If you like the Wolf then it is certainly worth it! They are a beautiful range, well built and certainly make a statement in a kitchen. Yes folks for the vast majority looks do matter and there isn't one thing wrong with that:-) CS appears to be outstanding, if you ever need it, and that is very important. For the vast majority open versus sealed burners is a moot point and there isn't anything wrong with that either.

So if you want an extremely good looking range, super dependable that will provide you with many years of enjoyment..Why not a Wolf?

I have not been a member of this forum but for a very short time. The reason I started snooping around here is because I always do research before major purchases. My wife thinks I over research and maybe she has a point.

I started out pretty sure I was going to get a Wolf package. That is, the Re frig, ovens, and range. Wolf has/had a $2500 dollar discount if you got all of the items at the same time, and Subzero and Wolf are the bling meisters of kitchen resale, and of course my local appliance dealer told me they were the best.

However, I have been dismally disappointed with my current gas range, a Frigidaire Gallery with one 15,000 BTU burner and a simmer burner and two 'other' burners that are pretty much good for nothing. It has been woefully inadequate and disappointing. The reason I specified gas in the first place is because of a wonderful gas range I had in college, an old battleship that had a top that lifted like a car hood and burners that were unbelievable. This thing had to date from the early sixties and cooked like a professional cook top. My gas range now is nothing compared to that old range.

So my research started and I discovered the main difference between my original battleship gas range and the one I currently have, open vs closed burners. This is why I originally gravitated to wards bluestar. However, the service horror stories and quality issues scared me right back to Wolf and I also added Monogram and DCS to my consideration.

the process eventually lead me to the capital culinarian. It has the right fit and finish and open burners, and in its "precision" incarnation is a well respected, well built range.

I struggled with the decision mainly because I know how people are when looking at houses, and Wolf appliances get the bling factor vote. I also will be selling my house in about 10 years so I had to factor this into my decision. However, I just have to have that open burner range I have been pining for since college.

So that is it. I have no reason to slam Wolf appliances. In fact, I was on the fence between a Wolf and the Capital for quite a while. I love the look of the Wolf Range. I also love the look of the DCS, the GE monogram, and the Capital. Each one offers something for the shopper. I do believe the Capital is going to end up being the best choice for me and for most people disappointed with closed burner ranges. I you feel your cooking style dovetails with closed burner ranges, probably a wolf or a DCS, or a capital precision will work great in your kitchen. If you want to resale you house in the next few years, at least here in Florida, Wolf is the smart choice.

I don't get all the hurt feelings. These are appliances we are wasting time discussing, not our children. If someone thinks your range is all bling and no sear, in the final analysis who cares?

One thing that I highly recommend is actually cooking on whatever range you are contemplating purchasing before making a decision. Sometimes, the cooking experience completely undoes certain of the preconceptions that you may have formulated, based upon reading opinions and reviews of appliances. If you can take favorite pots and pans to a showroom with operational appliances and experience them in use, that may make a huge difference in your decision process. I find elements such as the action of control knobs, the heft of the oven door, the pull of the drip tray, and other aspects that tend to get short shrift in reviews play into my pleasure when using ranges, in addition to accessible BTUs, flame configuration, wok burners, and so forth. The whole feel matters a lot and is very personal, which is why there is no one-best-for-everyone and also part of the reason people tend to personalize these posts so much. There can be magic in one range over another for an individual. If the Wolf does that for you, then that's the one for you. I'd still want to experience a few comparables, though, just to be sure. On another note, about that resale thing, there are neighborhoods where buyers expect Wolf packages, according to some on GW. I have no reason to disbelieve them. However, that has never been my experience and I was once a real estate broker in a famously high-end market (where Gaggenau was more commonly requested, and La Cornue not unheard of, and it was de riguer to complain about broken Subzeros). Of course, this was many years ago. Therefore, I'd say, know your locale and what local real estate agents' experience has been, but know also that this could change as new brands are introduced and become more accepted. Also, if you think that you may live in this house for fifteen or twenty years, I'm not sure that I'd be thinking in terms of the resale attractiveness of these appliances anyway. I'd be thinking of what I'd enjoy for the next twenty years!

I surely think I could cook/bake on/in a variety of ranges and be very happy.
I definitely would have preferred the open burner, for clean up, but none are available in my area, except Viking. No dealers so the idea of trying to get service was iffy.
If I was truly interested in wokking/high heat, I think I would invest in a big boy burner(80,000-150,000 BTUs) and have it put in outside. !5000 or 22000 BTU burners both are just a fraction of a true wok burner.
I would never make a purchase like this without seeing the actual range. There are those "lesser" considerations too on how the range feels. Are burners set further back on one than another? Do you like the grates? How does it clean up? How easily does the door open and close? How easy are the racks to move around? A big one for me is does the oven bake evenly? How hot does the door get?
Lots of choices.

I would also not buy a newly produced product but wait and see how they shake out. There are always bugs. Some companies rush to market faster than others, but I would get some opinions of those that actually have cooked on them. Of course the best is if you can actually cook on a range yourself.

Here is a link that might be useful: wokking equiptment

What kitchendetective said. No substitute for actually seeing and touching. Makes me think I should have tried cooking too. I drove to another city to see a Wolf and a Blue Star live. Went thinking I would almost certainly prefer the Wolf but was completely turned around by the experience of actually seeing and playing with both products. Makes me think I should go see a Capital too before ordering anything. It seems that there are folks who only think about "feeds and speeds" as we use to say in Xerox engineering, and others who are focused not just on "looks" (as in looks versus cooks) but also feel and ergonomics. It is all important. You walk in to the kitchen in the morning to make coffee and you see the range, whether you're using it right then or not, and it should (if not make you "happy") please you.

I honestly think the Wolf is a respectable range. I think it's pretty clear they've spent more effort and money to market their products than some other brands and that comes at a cost. They have an established brand with established distribution and support organization and, yes, more marketing. These are not bad things but for an equivalent price, you can find ranges from other manufacturers that provides more cooking power with less marketing.

None of this says you can't make a great meal with a Wolf range. Would your meal come out better with a BS or Culinarian? Nobody can answer that except you and maybe your guests after you've tried it. It all depends on your cooking style, what you are use to, and what you will be happier cooking on.

I can only say that the Culinarian and BS ranges are closer in design and performance to true commercial restaurant ranges. If this isn't what you are looking for, then feel free to ignore my opinion. I won't take offense. My observation is that Wolf started out as a pure commercial class range but they have drifted away from that. I certainly wouldn't argue that it was a good move on their part considering their success but what they make today is just not what *I* would choose.

Finally, to set the record straight. I never once said that you needed a powerful range to be a good cook. I never even once claimed that there is a direct relationship between what range you use and how your dishes come out. I merely said that for the same money you can find ranges with more cooking power and more even heat distribution. Period.

This is a very interesting thread. I don't even like cooking on a range, so I have no dog in this race.

It seems to me that what you're all getting at is that Wolf's home division is trying to deliver a range that is suitable for home cooks but that has many of the benefits of a commercial range. And for those who want it to be even more like home, they also offer the sealed burners.

I think the Viking home ranges are similar in that way. Input from the commercial side, but targeted to the home cook.

From what I've seen in person, and from what you all have said here, Blue Star, and I presume Capital, are more about making a range that is safe for home use but that is designed to handle as much as possible like an actual commercial range.

Sort of like the difference between a sports touring car, which corners great, has marvelous responsiveness, but still has creature comforts, and driving a real sports car which might be street legal but has no damping and no cupholder.