We wanted PEX tubing right from the start! Our electrician recommended a plumber he regularly works with and who was experienced with PEX.

PEX is much less expensive for materials then copper. And it goes in easier and much quicker saving on labor. We also used it for our radiant heat in garage. So far we have the radiant heat in garage operating and limited water supplies (outside water spigots and inside utility sink).

Yep! Our whole neighborhood is. (Same builder- it's their standard around here.) When we began looking at building, we asked a friend of my husband's, who works at a hardware/plumbing store. We asked what was the best in his opinion, and he immediately, without even having to think about it, said PEX. And really, with all the theft of copper we've been hearing about on these boards and elsewhere, I wouldn't want the hassle of copper right now.

We have PEX with a manifold and think it is great. Hot water flows more quickly with the dedicated lines and I think it is easier to not have your drinking water lines go through the water softer. We live in a hard water area and at our old house their solution to not drinking softened water was to not have any of the cold water lines go through the water softner so we still had lots of hard water staining in the bathrooms because the cold water in the shower, etc. was not softened. In our new house, we picked the lines that we didn't want to be softened water and then had softened cold water everywhere else and I notice a big difference in cleaning now that the cold water lines to the shower are soft water too.

Is there a climate where PEX is not recommended? Can you use clog removing chemicals on PEX? (Not that they are invironmentally friendly.) We couldn't have used it here anyway because our town's code is "all iron, all copper".

chisue, pex is only used for water lines,not drain,waste,vents.It is okay for cold climates as it has a longer freezing point due to the flexibility.It's more freeze tolerant than copper.

We used PEX because it does not burst if frozen. We have one poorly placed toilet supply that freezes when it gets below 10 out, and it has not burst. It is not less expensive where I am. The plumber was willing to do either, same price.

On my current project, the radiant heating installer used PEX in the concrete. I haven't used PEX for water supplies because I thought clients might balk at it in a high-end homes. However, now I see it everywhere. Indeed, the plumber doing my current project said he rarely uses copper anymore.

Using PEX, the plumbing contractors charge about 12% less. There's no theft risk and there's a lower risk of the plumber accidentally burning the house down. (No matter what you tell them, they never have a bucket of water handy when they're soldering.)

Besides PEX, there are some composite pipes available too, such as
Ipex Aqua.

I'm building in the country and my concern would be rodents chewing through the tubing. Apparently this has happened to some people.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rodent Damage

Definitely food for thought! As are some of the concerns raised here.
(See comments 4,5,6.)

Is "Ipex Aqua" the same product Ipex was calling "Kitec" a couple years ago, and more recently was calling "XPA"? I notice that some other company is now producing a composite pipe they're calling "Kitec". Does any know what's going on here? (I have a suspicion that lawyers are involved...)

Interesting... The Ipex radiant heating page still talks about "Kitec XPA."

Does anybody have a clue about what's going on here?

Here is a link that might be useful: IPEX Radiant Heating

As for rodents--we live out in the country and our new house is 1/2 mile from our old house. We had lots of mice in our old house so with our new house we put something like flashing on the sill and under the siding (it's bent so part rests on the sill and then the rest goes up under the siding) and we haven't seen or heard any evidence of mice in our new house. Our neighbors across the street didn't do this and have had mice in their year old house. I won't guarantee that it works, but it seems to at our house and our framer/sider is the one who told us about it and he did it to his house and has never seen mice in it either. It's worth a try, and maybe others can suggest mouse proofing methods that work too.

The Ipex composite piping products Kitec and Ipex Aqua seem to be the same--an aluminum core wrapped in polyethylene.

The Pex domestic water systems I've seen use a continuous run to each appliance, so there are no joins in inaccesible locations. Instead, there is a large manifold near the incoming water supply where the runs are connected and a valve to turn each one off or on. The only advantage over Pex cited by Ipex is that the composite product holds its shape better on bends.

The only obvious downside I see is that if a line is punctured during the construction process, the entire run has to be replaced. That can be some messy expensive job on the two storey, finished basement homes I build. By contrast, if say, a drywaller punctures a copper pipe, you just rip off the drywall in that location, solder in a new pipe and do a small patch. Routine.

Most people are under the false assumption that PEX must be run with the manifold system. That is not true. PEX may be run in the same main and branch configuration as is used for galvanized iron pipe, copper pipe or CPVC pipe and conversely there is nothing in the code that would prohibit installing a galvanized iron pipe, copper pipe or CPVC pipe in a manifold configuration if one so desired.

As a Plumber I have rather mixed emotions about the manifold system. On the one hand it is very convenient to be able to close a valve and isolate one fixture for service while still maintaining full water service to all the remaining fixtures in the house, but on the other hand when they install the manifold system many installers do not put the angle stop valves at the fixture end. I find it quite inconvenient to go from a second floor bathroom all the way down to a basement to turn the water supply off to make a minor repair on a toilet or faucett. When one considers the nominal price of angle stop valves (typically about $4ea.) I would insist that they be installed at the fixture end. In this manner if you have a problem with a toilet or faucett you can easily reach down and turn the water supply off right at the fixture or if there is a problem with the supply line it could be isolated at the manifold. On the other hand, if you opt for a main and branch configuration, regardless of what type of pipe you select, make it a point to have your plumber install numerous Zone valves. With zone valves if you should happen to have a problem with a line to one area of the house you could close the valve and zone off a single bathroom, kitchen or laundry area while still maintaining full water service to the rest of the house until the repairs can be made.

In regions that have problems with acidic water causing pin holes in copper pipe PEX is often recommended, however I would point out that there is a copper stub out at each fixture that is made of the same grade of copper as the copper pipe system, and which would be subject to the same pin hole problems.

It must also be noted that even in those regions that have acidic water, if your water is supplied by a municipal water supplier the ANSI/NSF standard 61 Safe Water Act requires that all municipal suppliers must treat acidic water to render it neutral. In the case of the home well system with acidic water I have to ask myself what are the long term health effects of consuming that water? Would it not make better sense to consider installing a water treatment system to correct the problem rather than looking for a piping material that is more tolerant?

While it is true that the PEX tubing itself is not damaged by freezing, it must be also be noted that the copper fixture stub outs are copper and are subject to the same freezing problems as copper pipe. It must also be noted that when water freezes it expands by approximately 9% by volume. If the freeze should happen to occur at a joint on a PEX system the expantion would stretch the PEX connector crimp ring, thereby rendering it useless and a leak or blowout will most likely occur as soon as the line thaws out.

While it is true that PEX tubing is much easier to run than copper pipe, it must also be noted that if the PEX system is run in the Manifold configuration you use so many additional feet of PEX that the material and installation labor cost will ultimately work out to about the same price. (This explains why many plumbers will offer the homeowner the choice of PEX or copper for the same price).

Although it has not been given much public attention there is some concerns about the long term health effects of plastic piping of all forms, PEX, CPVC, PE,PB etc. Under some rare circumstances such as with a home well and untreated water there is a concern that "biofilm" (Biofilm is the source of a number of bio pathegens including Legionella which causes legionaires disease) can grow in pipes that contain stagnant water for extended periods of time, such as the line to an outside hose bibb during winter months or a seldomly used utility sink. The industry recommendation is to have the whole system sanitized at least once every 4 years. (This is normally not a concern if your water is from a chlorinated municipal source.) On the other hand, as copper pipe ages it forms a layer of copper sulfate corrosion on the inner wall of the pipe. Copper sulfate is one of the best anti-bacterials known to man, therefore generally a copper water system will not support biofilm.

Copper or CPVC piping systems can be easily repaired with fairly inexpensive tools and equipment which are normally already present in the home workshop, whereas PEX tubing requires the use of special PEX crimpers. You would need a separate crimper for each size of PEX tubing used in your system, typically three sizes, and the PEX crimpers currently run about $125each plus you need a PEX "Go-No go" guage to check the crimp, which is another $25.

And finally, for reasons known only to the critters involved, rats, mice, rabbits and opossums seem to have a sweet tooth for PEX tubing. This would be a very big concern if you are running water lines under the floor through a raised crawlspace.

Now in response to a previous comment:
"The only obvious downside I see is that if a line is punctured during the construction process, the entire run has to be replaced."

This is incorrect. We can cut a PEX line and crimp in a repair section the same as we would with copper or CPVC.

lazypup: Thanks for the info.

I guess I had assumed that the manifold system was also being used to avoid the possibility of a breakdown in the fittings, such as had happened in the polybutylene systems--though I realize that the pipe itself broke down too. The 10%-12% lower prices I've been quoted for PEX over copper were for manifold systems. Any experience with the Kitec-type product?

We were all set to try PEX when we got a little nervous about biofilm. It was egged on by tasting the water next door where they used PEX, definite plastic taste that perhaps wore off.

Supposedly copper will discourage biofilm better? Supposedly you are supposed to remember to flush the PEX systems frequently with a disinfectant?

We operate mainly on rumor, of course, the only accurate source of information we have found. LOL

I asked the same question when we started our build. The plumber I talked to - who I have used for many years and trust - said he would not use PEX tubing. His choice is copper than PVC in that order. I can also tell you that a friend of my Dad who had a house built using Pex lost his entire antique train collection when a pex joint failed while he was on vacation. Between those 2 inputs, I chose to stay away from PEX. The cost advantage was not enough when I considered the cost of a major failure or replacing the plumbing system. I was also burend by the Poly-B water pipe issues that you might have read about - so I am very leary of flex tubing for this application.

I would look at CPVC pipe if copper is a concern.

We've been in our house less than two years, but we haven't had a failure of the PEX in that time, even in a line that froze repeatedly. The only failure we had was in a brass filling that cracked (plumber's assistant cranked the potfiller too tight onto the fitting, cracking the fitting).

We don't have a "plastic" taste in the pipes. I'm not wild about the taste of the water because it is softened, but that is another issue.

Part of the reason we wanted PEX was due to the ability to withstand freezing and because we wanted the manifold system.

I'm interested in hearing more about the biofilm issue, especially how to prevent it and how to get rid of it. Lazypup?

We used PEX also and have not had any problems, nor plastic taste to the water. Here's an interesting article that reports about a study that shows more Legionella growth on copper than PEX: http://www.vvs-forum.se/index.php3?use=publisher&id=2185&lang=1&mp=4

It says, "... However, his prolonged study, presented at this congress, continued for approximately another 300 days and showed the differences in Legionella growth to have more or less equalised. The difference that now existed was that the bacteria seemed to grow better on copper than on PEX, a result that pointed in a completely different direction from the earlier studies."

PEX has been used in Europe for 25 years, so it's not like it's an all new, never tested product. I'll keep my eyes open regarding the bio-film, but I'm not ultra-worried about it.

Here is a link that might be useful: VVS Forum Article

We just purchased an unfinished house in Alabama, and all of the plumbing subs recommended PEX and prefer it. The cost of copper is thru the roof evidently, and they said that PEX is a great material that they are using all the time now. And this is for a high end home.

They use it on all kinds of construction now. I was skeptical because I presumed we'd use copper, but I'm willing to give it a try. So, we are using PEX. :o)

Depends on your definition of 'high-end'. Most 'high-end' homes still use copper. However, since builders/homebuilders try and save costs no matter what bracket of home that is - other materials will make it into whatever home that might be. And since many consider pex to be a fairly decent substitute - it will be used. That being said, most of the really nice houses I see still have copper tubing for water, with pvc for waste to cast iron waste stacks. I imagine all cast iron would be even better, but I usually see cast iron waste stacks now. Usually builders/plumbers cut out the cast iron waste stacks first, then look at other areas like substituting pex for copper next, and then branching off of pex rather than manifold after that. . .

The ironic thing with the pex vs copper debate is that if you do pex/manifold vs copper branch - the cost difference is usually only 15-20% total. The additional homerun lengths of pex to the manifold and the manifold itself usually increases the cost that plumbers have frequently just offered the pex or copper option without much savings to the homeowner. Now, you /can/ run pex branches off of pex lines, but usually the situations where you see that is where the builder is really trying to save money and inevitably the lines aren't sized right, and water pressure is a problem.

To me, there are issues with both. Given that they are fairly close in price, I still prefer copper but not really knocking pex at all.

I only regularly get into homes up to about C$3-C$4 million (US$2.820-US$3.76 million) when they're running an open house or I know a trade working there. And I see PEX manifolds in them. I have never seen cast iron in homes in that price range. No matter what price range they're looking at, homebuyers are most susceptible to the charms of what they can see. (Not what they can't hear.)

worthy - I think it depends on which builder you see. If you get into some real high-end homes where they aren't just building a big home, but where attention to detail is first and foremost (and all the subs are as well), then those little things start to pop up. Yes, you are correct - that many high-end homes use the same plumber that do homes in other ends of the spectrum. However, if you see a large group of homes being built in upper end areas with similar trades from architects, plumbers, electricians, trim, cabinet, lighting, etc - then you start to see some those details. Those high-end touches that aren't excessively expensive (but they all add up) like cast iron waste stacks, higher grade paints (FPE, Farrow & Ball, etc), more trim, cornice, casing, etc. basically I think once a few trades start spec'ing it for some of the 'high-end' homes they build - it starts to trickle down in the list of things that people do. Perhaps its architect specs, perhaps homeowner (doubt it).

Either way - you almost certainly aren't going to see cast iron waste stacks in the non-high-end home :-).

Although price is generally related to quality, more expensive doesn't always mean superior.

Have any of you used PEX for underground supply? I'm looking at 1-1/4" supply 180' long, copper's gonna kill me..I'm in Alaska, 32" frost line..

Greg

Here is a note published in the California building code revisions about PEX and biofilm.

Note that copper is said to properties to resist biofilm.

Here is a link that might be useful: Note on PEX and biofilm

After reading a bunch of articles about PEX, biofilm and Legionella, I haven't found any information about anyone actually getting sick. Life is full of "dangers". Has anyone actually heard of somone getting sick from this? I have never even heard of someone getting Legionella.

If we were all aware of the negatives that we ingest on a daily basis, we'd all be in the funny farm. It's good to be aware and research and strive to be as healthy as we can be, but our bodies have things that fight off the unwanteds that we dont and cant know about.Good to be aware,but discern what is really improtant enough to worry about.

My new home needs around 450' of pipe from the street to the house and was wondering if anyone has used PEX for supply plumbing. My building dept. allows it and the cost is incredibly low compared to copper and would have no connections, as opposed to PVC, so there is a less chance of problems....

For direct burial underground supply piping we are commonly using Polyethylene SDR pipe, which is much cheaper than copper or PEX.

You can get the PE pipe in 500' rolls so you have a seamless supply line.

I am considering doing my own water line instead of waying the infalted builder costs. Do I install the water line after the basement foundation has been poured and come in through the wall??

Allan, on our crawlspace,the foundation contractor used a larger diameter peice of pvc and put it down in the footer area before the pour. We then snaked the incoming water line up through that.A basement might be a different animal, but it seems similar.

"I have never even heard of someone getting Legionella."

Legionella is the bacterium that causes Legionnaire's disease, most often connected with moisture from incorrectly maintained air handling systems, but also from drinking water.

Less than two years ago, 21 people died in Toronto from an outbreak of Legionnaire's.

Linking outbreaks to plastic piping is another matter. But it has certainly given me cause to quesiton any use of PEX on my part.

Here is a link that might be useful: Recent Outbreaks of Legionnaires' Disease

I am not sure if that is Copper propoganda, but I have heard many things regarding plastic/pex causing cancer or prone to bacteria. I think I will go with the flex copper line, even if more expensive. It just seems like less chance of animals biting into it, PSI rating, etc.

We are using copper. DH was adamant about it.

My biggest question is, if PEX is so great, why is it really only since the price of copper shot up that everyone here started pushing it? If it were so great, why wouldn't it have started replacing copper plumbing long ago based on its superior quality, rather than its cheaper price? I'm highly suspicious of anything that's so suddenly touted as the the "best thing" mostly due to the cost of the last "best thing" shooting through the roof.

Personally I'm glad DH insisted on copper. Tried and true.

I am going with PEX. As cork2win said (but talking about copper), pex is tried and trued. It has been used for decades in most other countries. I am choosing PEX mainly for the ease of installation for myself and the flexability of the manifold system.

Rodents aren't typically interested in pipe or cables but they do want to get through the hole that was drilled for the pipe or cable and will chew to enlarge the hole. All holes should be sealed with expanding foam so that rodents don't detect a hole to try to climb through. It is easier to keep rodents out than to get rid of them once they consider your home theirs. At that point you need to eliminate all that claim your home as theirs and seal all entries so that new rodents don't find an easy way in. Rodents that have moved in will chew right through new soft materials to get back in or out of their home.

Interesting dim4fun. Many years ago on a remodel in n.w. florida, we found rodents who had chewed through some old braided type wiring, but only around holes that were drilled at the plates. Your theory makes sense.

I've heard stories of rodents knawing through pvc sensing a source of water causing leaks in sprinkler lines.

There have been some tests done regarding the attractiveness of PVC pipe/conduit to rodents. I've got over two decades of remodeling experience with dozens of examples of visible evidence of what the critters are after and it isn't the cables or pipes. They want through the hole someone started for them. They will chew on anything in their path as a normal part of their lives to keep their teeth in check so occasionally I have seen a Romex cable gnawed on in the attic where they have a well used path. I've seen them go after HVAC ducts and pull out fiberglass. I was told that was probably for nesting material.

Here is a link that might be useful: PVC versus rodent

We have great water in Portland, Oregon.
In our last house we had copper and the water tasted better than 90% of the bottled waters.

We installed PEX in the new home due to Plumber's recommendations. YUK!!
The Blue Pex pipe gives off odor and taste to the water. We were told that it will go away in a couple of months. It has been almost 6 months and it still tastes bad.

I went into the crawl space and poured a bottle of water from the street, (comes through copper to house). The water directly from street has no odor, so it is those darned plastic pipes.

I'm having a copper run installed for kitchen drinking water use.

My 3/4" pex doesn't deliver the water my old copper lines did. I probably wouldn't complain if I didn't know the difference. I'll stick with the pex as long as my aging arms can crimp it but next time I'll go to 1". I kept my pex in the crawlspace and dropped to it with copper but in the future I'll just go brass pipe for my drops. The savings aren't worth the soldering.

pex instead of copper is a no brainer if it might be subjected to freezing temperatures. Iron is not an option if the water supply has a high mineral content or low PH.

Pex is easy to install and can be spliced without replacing a long run, but if the run is accessible I would pull new line anyway to avoid unnecessary connectors. Avoid stainless steel compression rings, use copper. The crimping tool for copper rings is much more expensive, but the fittings are more secure.

Hello,

Many brass fittings contain lead, except for fittings specifically designated as "low lead". Lead helps soften the alloy increasing the workability dramatically. This has the result of considerably decreasing the machining and tooling costs, important especially in overseas production operations. Since PEX systems utilize brass fittings extensively, I am quite interested in any study or findings relating PEX installations to lead levels versus other piping systems.

Does anyone have any information regarding this?

"Since PEX systems utilize brass fittings extensively, I am quite interested in any study or findings relating PEX installations to lead levels versus other piping systems."

To get 'listed' as acceptable for use by the code organizations the brass must meet the ASTM standards that restrict lead content.

Hi,

My question was about products that are in use in jurisdictions that do not limit the level of lead in products below 5%, or products that were installed prior to the publication of Annex G suffix of NSF 61, which allows manufactures to demonstrate the compliance of their products as "low lead". Only in jurisdictions which enforce stricter regulations must buildings be fitted with "low lead" products. Products installed prior to January 1, 2010 are not governed and may contain lead in amounts in excess of the current publication.

I was wondering about any information that relates PEX installations to lead content.

Thanks

The initial material cost differences between copper and plastics are significant. A article comparing costs for different plumbing pipes can be found here: http//:www.southce.org/ajwhelton.

A US government funded study to investigate what chemicals leach out of American plastic plumbing pipe is also underway. Go to that same web page and type in 'plastic pipe'. There has been quite a bit of work done in Europe but American materials have not been equally publicly scrutinized.

Some of the study data has already been released and testing included actual buildings and testing of new pipes purchased at local building supply stores.

Here is a link that might be useful: Informational research website

Keeping the debate alive...

PEX is subject to damage by an insect common to the NW USA and which has now spread to the east coast: the western conifer seed bug.

That's according to Uponor, manufacturer of Wirsbo, among other products.

This was Uponor's diagnosis of our leaking Wirsbo. Also note that it was Uponor that commissioned the one and only study that addresses this issue.

Beware.

We've had one Pex blow out on a bathroom install. One compression fitting became loose and spurting water. It was an easy fix once the issue was found. It was 3 years after install.

Hmm ... this is interesting how this small bug has enough strength to nip such strong plastic pipe.

PEX tubing instead of copper, pb or cpvs is a no brainier. Perfect freeze resistance, perfect chlorine resistance (while copper not), very good impact or kink resistance and in the end PEX tubing cheapier then copper 8 times!!! See on price first http://www.canarsee.com/pex/pipe No copper for me anymore, time fo PEX is come