That was just the product of someone's overactive imagination.

LOL. I will let the post in this thread speak for themselves.

Trevor,

Thanks for being so brutally honest with regards to your relationship with Bluestar.

That answers alot of hazy questions that were in the air.

In the off chance that anyone cares about what's really going on here, from what I can tell it stems back to deeageux objecting to the way I quoted his self-described "weberian scream" when I suggested that we be cautious about jumping on a bandwagon prior to seeing the actual new product and without making the mfr live up to the hype. Despite my apology and attempt to clearly rationalize my comment, he feels compelled to attack me for asking fair, genuine questions and grossly distorting them any way way he can. Fortunately for the rest of us, Trevor and amcook can see through the BS (and I don't mean Bluestar) and continue to provide valuable feedback.

"LET THE NEW CULT BEGIN!!!" - deeageaux, Tue, Jun 15, 10 at 1:30

{{gwi:1425246}}

I feel the sudden urge to hum the song about "Children Behave.....you know thats what they say when we're together...."

Trevor, thank you for your explanation.

Back to our originally scheduled broadcast.... Amcooks, could you tell me about the cast iron grates? As heavy as BS.... easily cleaned? I'm seeing that they are one piece. Does that mean one piece that spans two burners (front to back) or one piece for each burner?

I haven't been able to find dimensions for the smaller oven on the 48". Is it a usable size?

gbsim,

Keep in mind I owned the BS drop-in cooktop which has a completely different (basic traditional grate) than the range or slide-in (aka rangetop). The overall weight/mass of the grates are about the same. The CC grate is one piece and I think I think they look good. Nice and clean with no frills. Comparing them to the BS drop-in grate, I think they will be a bit easier to clean because it has more flat surfaces whereas BS grate is more like a base with tendrils/fingers coming out. The BS grate has a few nook and crannies that are sometimes hard to get to. It may turn out the CC isn't any better in this regard but it looks like it might be.

It's one grate per burner. Single grate for multiple burners would be a deal killer for me.

Here is a link that might be useful: Picture of grate from Trevor's site

Trevor,

I will jump in with everyone else and thank you kindly for your honesty regarding your relationship with Bluestar. I must admit I was starting to wonder why you all of the sudden went from promoting BS tooth and nail to not getting involved at all, but I can totally understand now.

I have to say if I lived ANYWHERE in the US, I most certainly would have bought my Bluestar from you. I think you are an awesome person for helping out many people with their Bluestars, even when they did not buy from you. I think I had mentioned that before in a previous thread.

Anyway, as much as I love my Bluestar, I am sorry to hear that they have apparently treated you without the respect you deserve. I really hope the management read these postings and smarten up. I am afraid if they don't they may just fizzle out with the competition heating up (no pun) thanks to Capital.

I am truly saddened by BS's actions. If Bluestar is listening, I honestly think you should try to make amends with Trevor (for your own good) and listen to his advice and recommendations (that is if he is even willing at this point)

I wish you lots of luck.

"LET THE NEW CULT BEGIN!!!" - deeageaux, Tue, Jun 15, 10 at 1:30

Using all capital letters and three exclamation marks.

If you can't see the tongue in cheek sarcasm then I can't help you.

Amcook,

I appreciate all of your research and your detailed postings about it. It's really helpful and very generous of you.
Have you explored a commercial range for your home?

wolfgan80,
Thanks. I'm glad you found it helpful. I have explored commercial ranges for the home and it's not a pretty picture. Top issues are:

* insurance - commercial rated appliances will often void residential insurance policies
* fire code - most local codes outright forbids this or requires extensive active fire suppression
* aesthetics - I love the hardcore look of restaurant ranges but I might be the only one in our household
* installation - commercial ranges are built for higher pressure. Residential gas pressure is 5-7" wc but commercial sites start at 7" wc and can easily be over 30" wc.

So, I decided against this path. :)

I'm not sure where the induction boiling time contest is documented, so I apologize for addressing it here, but some factors that affect the results are:

o Whether the pan is large enough to capture all of the induction lines. (A small pan on a large hob may take longer than the same pan on a smaller, lower power hob.)

o How much thermal mass the pan base has that has to be heated in addition to heating the water. This could be corrected for by making two measurements, one with two quarts and one with one quart, subtracting the times and doubling the result.

o Initial temperature

o Altitude (boiling occurs at a lower temperature in Denver than in Death Valley)

o Hob power

o The degree of boiling vigor that defines the end time, or where the temperature is measured in the water

Having a Kenmore (Electrolux without the metal strip between controls and burners), I have observed some of these effects. The fastest time for boiling will result from using the highest power hob with a pan that overlaps the outer ring pattern (with its base) while having a thin low-mass inductive base (such as old Revereware without the copper bottom). Wide and shallow also reduces the radiative loss from the sides of the pan.

Trevor's comment about using the same room is valid, but pan, burner, and hob selection can affect the results, all else being equal. Most useful to a given individual would be a specific pan or kettle that would be used for this purpose tested on the burner and hob that would typically be used if each cooktop were owned by the tester.

In most cases, the heat flux induced in a pan using induction will be higher than that absorbed from other types of burners. However, there are heroic gas burners that can reach induction cooktop levels of flux. In such cases, the induction fan who accepts boiling water as a form of macho contest has to reach for his Cooktek wok and demonstrate what 3500W can do. (I haven't done this yet with two quarts, so I'm not sure myself beyond the theoretical expectation of under 3 minutes. However, it will start bubbling at the bottom within seconds.)

kas

Kas
Did you watch the water boiling contest between Mojavean and I, You can see the size of the pan in relation to the burner. I did not call it a boil until it was vigoursly doing so.Like you , I do see the bubbles on the bottom of the pan within seconds.

Gary

kas - Valid points for sure. He used a "9.5 inch pot" for his power tests. BTUs and burner construction are essentially irrelevant because we're looking for fastest, not fastest in relation to input and technology.

I think there comes a time when we have to let go of the engineer in us and think about what's really going to affect us in the kitchen. I have about 3 skillets, 4 stock pots, 2 saute pans and a dutch oven of various materials, all of which have bases within a fraction of an inch, plus or minus, of Trevor's "pot." While the actual times would change, I'd expect the ranking order to be the same regardless of which I used. As such, I'm satisfied that he has proven which is the fastest range.

Perhaps when comparing induction hobs such generalizations are less valid. As you state, material, mass, and in particular diameter would come into play if you're trying to compare apples to apples. But I guess that's part of what you sign up for with induction.

p.s. If you go to eurostoves.com and click on Culinarian, in a few more intuitive clicks you'll see the specifics of the tests.

The only way this can be done is with the same pan, same start temp and so on. If anyone is interested in this i will gladly send my pan out to set the ball rolling.

The pan can move around the country collating (Honest) independent results.

I would not post the results until all test have been completed, so nobody tries to beat the other unjustly.

Just and Idea.,........

I'm rather put off by what I'm hearing of Blue Star's attitude. Clearly, there is no one range that is perfect for every consumer. Therefore, no sales person should be expected to represent one brand exclusively. To pull the entire line from someone with well demonstrated sales skills, service, and knowledge base, and to do so in this market climate, seems to be to shoot one's self in the foot. I suppose time will tell.

There is more to this story between Trevor and Bluestar ...

I am guessing there is a woman or women involved, foreign intrigue, important documents concealed in a locket, and family secrets long kept hidden!

I am beginning to think of the affair as the Eurostoves/Bluestar/Capital bodice ripper. Heck, I may write it myself and give that "Eclipse" gal a run for her money.

The situation with Bluestar and Eurostoves should not stop anyone from purchasing a Bluestar range. Bluestar still makes an excellent cooking range.

The situation arose because I feel that the Capital Culinarian is a better cooking range, this right now is just my opinion and those who have seen the range live in the factory or my store, I feel confident that my feelings will be backed up by further Culinarian customers.

Most relationships in business don't last forever, I am just thankful that the Capital Culinarian fills the void created by Bluestar's decision not to sell products to me anymore.

mojavean--
There's a definite future for you in publishing, on top of your other talents. . .

(and I do believe you're a neighbor of mine)

Howdy, Kitchendetective. You're not the one who runs around topless all the time, are you?

I'm the one on that book cover.

Well you're definitely invited over for beers or coffees then! My email is on my page link, drop me a line. Always interested in meeting fellow GW stalwarts.

kitchendetective:

Then kindly step outside please.

My turn today - went with a friend and my daughter to the Capital factory to see one in person, got to see a 30" for real, and have begun the process to order one. The power of the front flames are not to be believed, water started boiling very fast, a wok on the dedicated wok grate began smoking within seconds, and at least as impressive, a sheet of paper sitting on the lo burner in back was so unaffected by the flame set to its lowest position that we forgot about as we talked. When we noticed it still sitting there on the flame after about 5 minutes, it was slightly singed in one spot.

I have pictures, no idea how to post them.

Congrats Dan. Wish they had the dedicated wok burner when I went to test. That would have been cool. Ah well, I guess I'll have to wait. That's pretty funny about leaving the paper on the simmer burner.

About the wok burner, did they have a couple of different woks or just one? They just had a single 16" when I went and I'd brought one with me that was smaller (it was my dad's). Mine main wok is a 16" but I also have a 14" so was wondering if you were able to test out the fit of a smaller wok. Did they tell you anything more about delivery dates?

Thanks for reporting your experience.

Just the one wok, I didn't ask any more than that. I really don't know what size it was, but can send you a picture. I think I'd have to measure mine to get a sense of what I saw.

I'm told delivery in September. I'm only 20 minutes from there right off the 5 freeway in Silver Lake - I hope that simplifies delivery and they don't have to go through some arcane process of sending it to some other warehouse miles away and then here.

I didn't realize that. Where is that factory? We have kids in Los Feliz--maybe I could wander on over to the factory?

Nevermind. Got it.

Santa Fe Springs, about a mile east of where the 5 and 605 freeways cross. I rushed over yesterday because Mr. Kalsi said the ranges were shipping off for photography on Monday. I imagine they'll be back.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll check before I go as I'm not in the neighborhood very often.

Interesting information. I was looking at a BS and the dealer talked to the BS rep about whether the over door still gets hot. BS says this was resolved a couple years ago. Based on posts here, I wonder if this is true. Does anyone have a new BS and does the door get hot? I will definetely look at capital if this is true.

The Capital is nice looking but I will keep and be happy with our BS 48 inch. Never a problem.

"Posted by spruce40 (My Page) on Sun, Jul 25, 10 at 14:35
Interesting information. I was looking at a BS and the dealer talked to the BS rep about whether the over door still gets hot. BS says this was resolved a couple years ago. Based on posts here, I wonder if this is true. Does anyone have a new BS and does the door get hot? I will definetely look at capital if this is true."

========================

We have the new BlueStar 30" V1 (RNB304BBS V1), and NO... The oven door does not get HOT, it gets warm like any gas oven door should if the oven is on and working properly, but not too hot to hold onto the handle etc.

One thing that should be noted and something that would be impossible to prevent, is that if you open the oven door for any length of time, or leave it cracked open with the oven blazing at 350 or higher, the METAL control knobs WILL get too hot to hold onto for a few minutes. They cool back down rather quickly, but because they are made from solid cast metal and not plastic, they do conduct heat more rapidly than plastic knobs would.

Any stove would react the same way with the oven door opened with the oven on, but only a stove that used solid metal knobs would get so hot so fast. I consider that to be a non-issue, but I have read some complaints on here about it, which I find kind of silly. If you keep your oven door closed while baking, the control knobs will stay nice a cool. :o)

The oven door, knobs and kick plate do get very hot in comparison to the Culinarian even on the V1 model. However I will agree the handle does not get hot on the Blustar.

Some data:

My Bluestar V1 oven has been on at 270 degrees for 6 hours now. I am braising a pork butt.

Measured with my Fluke 62 IR Thermometer:

Hottest oven knob: 108 degrees.

Hottest part of the oven door and kickplate: 117 degrees.

Ambient temperature: 65 degrees.

Temperature of the inside oven wall 271 degrees.

Measurements are similar for me when set at 350 degrees.

-Stooxie

Not to be argumentative because I know who stooxie is and I am still grateful for his patience in getting his Bluestar range to him, it was a nightmare.

BUT and there had to be a but.... in a post dated Nov 3rd 2010 you posted

"I used my infrared thermometer to see what the temp of the oven doors was when set to 375. The warmest part of the door is the bottom, showing about 150 degrees. The rest is negligible, showing about 100 - 120 degrees."

Which contradicts the above posting. One thing I can say for 100% certainty the capital has a much cooler door than Bluestar.

Further the equipment I use when testing I am sorry to say is more accurate than the 62 IR, I use the Fluke 51 series 2 with a UL approved plate for internal temps (as pictured below) and the Fluke 80PK-3A Surface Probe for exterior temps (also pictured). The reason I purchased these tools was for accuracy.

I asked the head engineer at capital an open ended question tonight " I need another thermometer to send to customers should i get IR or direct contact" his answer is noted below

IR thermometers are great tools for certain applications, such as measuring HVAC outputs at the diffusers, but have a weak point when being used to measure temperatures of reflective surfaces. IR thermometers use a laser to reflect off the surface to be measured and work best on non-reflective surfaces for this reason. Higher end models have adjustable emissivity settings which allow more accurate readings to be taken from various surface materials but less expensive models have a preset emissivity of 0.95 which is a pretty good setting for matte black surfaces such as black plastic or matte black paint. Stainless steel on the other hand, has an emissivity listed as 0.59. I have found it to require a lot of adjustment using this emissivity as a starting point to get somewhat close but inconsistent measurements. This is due to the variability of reflectance from shiny surface to shiny surface. Even the same finish shiny surface can have a different reflectance from sample to sample. Powder coat paints used for hot appliances also tend to be shiny and must have emissivity adjusted to provide ballpark temperature measurements.
The agencies approving home appliances do not typically use IR thermometers officially for more than finding hot spots, which are then measured with more accurate tools such as contact probes that have a thermocouple usually embedded in a plastic surround to prevent undue heat absorption. The UL standard will allow the finding of hot spots using a IR thermometer but will not allow the recording of data gathered from such a device because of all the factors that can cause inaccuracies.
Internal oven temperatures have even more issues than external temperatures for measurement with an IR thermometer since most residential cooking appliances use door glass with heat reflective coatings on at least one surface of the door glass if not more. This can greatly affect readings in either the high or low direction. Not only will the glass cause errors but in order to get a reading without going through the glass, the door must be opened which will cause even greater inaccuracies. The best measurement tool for the high temperatures inside an oven is a properly constructed thermocouple with enough length to allow the wire to be run outside the oven.
Even when using thermocouples you must make sure to use the correct wire for the proper temperature range and that the thermocouple device is set for the same type of thermocouple wire. If any of these are wrong, inaccurate readings will result.
Like the saying goes, there is a proper tool for every job but the IR thermometer is not one for more than ballpark comparative measurements to be validated by more accurate tools. If you plan on using one don't use it to report official comparison results!

As i said the above info came from Capital take it or leave it.

Interior Plate

Direct contact Probe

Well, Trevor, I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one. I don't feel my tests were inaccurate and I am amused at the pot calling the kettle black here.

-Stooxie

Gentleman always agree to disagree.

Sigh....Stooxie obviously you love your BS and that is how it should be. It is also pretty obvious that folks in the past felt the BS oven door got way to hot..If this is fix all to the good.
That said if you want to know if an oven door or handle or knobs (w/o opening the oven door) get to hot TOUCH THEM. If the door seems 'excessively' hot it might be defective, that can happen ya know. All the IR and what not is fine and dandy but the only thing that really matters is your skin to hot item (door, knobs etc.)

The CC doors, knobs etc. feel fine, mildly warm door at any oven temp and the handle/knobs are a non-issue. Are they cooler or warmer than the BS's, don't have a clue. I don't have a BS in my kitchen to compare so it doesn't matter. The ONLY thing that matters is my skin to the range that is sitting in my house no matter who makes it.

So no offense Gentleman but please can we dial the pixel peeping back a tich:-)

Trevor showed my wife, Patti and I around the Culinarian 48" last weekend and it was very enlightening. I've heard the term fit & finish thrown around quite a bit on here and I guess never fully grasped it's importance. The advantage of comparing ranges at Eurostoves is that you see most of the leading pro-ranges in a real-world kitchen as opposed to a fancy showroom. The ranges are all actively used by the kitchen staff and you get an idea of how they perform, and look after a period of heavy use. They are NOT clean and shiny, and that's GOOD!
As for fit and finish, the Culinarian really does stand out. The thing seems built like a tank. Seamless top which is a stark contrast to Dacor, Wolf, Bluestar, etc. Comes with all trim. The door feels of better quality. The best way I can describe it is like the difference between opening and closing the door on an econobox automobile and comparing that to a luxury vehicle like a BMW, Mercedes or Volvo. SOLID. Anyone who has doubts about the burners should go compare. There really is no comparison.

I really like the cast iron top of the Bluestar, but I think i'm going with the Culinarian. I discovered that the Wolf is absolutely a sheep in Wolf clothing. It's all show and little go.

Trevor, thanks for taking the time with us. I'm as skeptical a shopper as they come and I found everything you have claimed on these boards to be accurate.

Please do let me and everyone else know how the Capital/Modern-Aire project is progressing.

Mike & Patti

...Carefully stepping around the oven door temp argument... :)

I've been away from gw for a while just because the real world came up and slapped me upside the head. When I got the email forwards from this thread, I thought I'd jump in an post a quick update.

To recap a bit, I got the range back in October without any burners or grates. When I got the burners and grates in November, the burners didn't look production quality but they worked ok so I waited patiently until they worked out the supply kinks and fixed any issues that might have come up. Well, I finally got the new burners yesterday...

I am hereby retracting my earlier reviews on this range and will now say that with the proper burners, it's even better. My range was one of the first (if not actually *the* first) one shipped so it had the mid-sized and simmer burners in the back. I was sent the larger nozzles back in December but didn't have the burners to go with them.

After installing those and replacing all the burners, doing a quick adjust on the shutters, and then finally doing the simmer adjustment, I can report that I have full range down to a very low simmer on all burners. The new burners I got are flawless. Every ignitor is perfectly positioned and every burner lights after only a few clicks. The old preproduction burners I had before had the wider flame ports that Trevor got originally before he got them to tilt them more upward and closer together. I haven't used my wok on these new burners yet but I can already tell they will be great.

On a side note, since I last posted, I had a chance to use the rotisserie and the results were wonderful. I did a chicken and the skin got a bit burnt but I suspect my brine had too much sugar content from the oranges I used. I'll have to adjust that next time. That broiler sure does get hot. I almost wish I could have it cycle off and on to reduce the intensity. The oven was surprisingly not very dirty after that but I did run the self-clean cycle just to be sure. The results were great and I can't wait to try it again. In fact, my wife and kids kept raving about the chicken so I'm sure we'll be doing that again soon.

Now that I have actually used every feature on the range, I can say that I'm very happy with it. Now that I've got the production burners and everything is adjusted.. I'm a very happy camper.

Thusie,

I think you're 100% correct and hence all the back-and-forth. There's lies, damned lies and statistics(/data)... Trust yourself, first.

-Stooxie

I am days away from ordering a range for a kitchen remodel and desperately looking for a 36 in culinarian to see in person! No one seems to have one - I live in San Diego, CA - any suggestions?

I am days away from ordering a range for a kitchen remodel and desperately looking for a 36 in culinarian to see in person! No one seems to have one - I live in San Diego, CA - any suggestions?

If you are serious about dropping $5K plus on a range then I strongly suggest calling Capital,make an appointment, and see the range live in person. Make the drive into the OC.

You can see the 36" in person. Cook on the 48". The burners and the big oven are the same as the 36". And you can see 4x4 metal color samples too.

Capital Cooking
562-903-1168
866-402-4600

13211 Florence Ave
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670-4509

You can not cook on the range in the factory, the last time i was in CA they had the test unit in the both, that may still be in the both but call just to make sure.

If you do go you might be able to see one working.

When I was there they had the 48" live.

I did not know it was going to be live.

Brought pots and pans to see how they fit in the oven so I boiled water to see how fast it would do it. Played around with the knob to see flame pattern and how it would work with small pans etc.

Turned on the Rotisserie.

I don't see why they would not let you cook on it for a little while.

Don't know about the Capital factory, but we cooked on the one at Trevor's. This range is the cat's meow. The 36" is sitting in my den right now awaiting me to have time off to finish the remodel. This range is far and above anything you have ever cooked on previously. I'm having to control my wife, just to keep her from running a gas line across the floor to the range just so she can use it. I'm sorry, but the BlueStar is a POS compared to the Capital.

I am sure they will allow you to boil some water and see all the working features, but cooking might be a big ask for the factory

Surjit is one classy guy. It is well worth a visit to the factory.
Billy

thank you! I will call this morning to go check it out asap. It looks like this range is my top contender and I am hoping that it is as good as it seems to be. From everything I have read and the videos that I've seen it looks like it will be. The final deal breaker will be if there is someone who can service it in my area should something go wrong . . . wish me luck!

You mean the final deal maker?

It might be the factory itself that services the San Diego area.

Went to the showroom in Newport Beach - thanks for the tips on the phone numbers! Well worth the trip, totally made my decision easy. The Capital looks so much more refined than the Blue Star. The Blue Star was top of my list but it looks so industrial that I just couldn't put it in my kitchen. I thought I wanted a self-clean but after looking at both, I liked the manual much better. The shelves in the manual slide in and out much better than the shelves on rollers in the self-clean version. The rollers seemed to stick on the self-clean displays and the rotisserie is a beast! I'm sure if I was really into rotisserie cooking, it would be great but it looks like you could spear an entire turkey on that thing! Sam was super accomodating and made everything super easy - I ordered my 36 Culinarian the next morning and cannot wait for it to arrive . . .

Congrats, Jules. I ordered my 48" today. Thanks Trevor!

Can't wait to have that fine machine at my disposal in my new kitchen. It's going to be a long few months of anticipation.