"which is really strange in this recession. You'd think they would be aggressively discounting"

Why would you think that?

"The major home and appliances stores seem to have the same sales over and over again "

You, the consumer have conditioned the retailers to behave like that. (You, is a generic term here)
You whine and complain the old school dealers won't move on their prices, don't have the selection that the big box does and aren't open on Sunday or at 8 PM. They also tend to carry the more expensive and reliable brands. $1400 is pretty much chicken feed for a fridge. Adjusted for inflation that's cheap compared to the decent "reliable" appliances you speak of 10 years ago or insane with 20-30 year old ones. Consumers now follow the WalMart herd. We want bigger faster prettier, and CHEAPER widgets and we want them today. Then we turn around an complain said widget is made in China with toxic paint, and that it breaks, we can't get parts for it, there's now a cheaper widget, ect...

The front load W & D's save water and electricity, and are generally acknowledged to preform better. Whether they are worth it to you depends on your pocketbook, how you account for things on a balance sheet and your overall perspective.

"Trying to buy used online brings flippant sellers and people who are reluctant to let you hook up the items and let you try it. "

This is like you complaining that a garage sale isn't the most condusive place to make a descision.

As far as getting the poop: There is now one place. You'll have to work. This place is as good as any and no one is trying to sell you anything here so things tend to be a bit more unbiased. Consumer Reports is a good resource BUT they are not the Holy Grail AND get things wrong more then they'd admit. ePinnions (sp?) is a decent place too. Your "network" is also a good place.

"""which is really strange in this recession. You'd think they would be aggressively discounting"

Why would you think that? ""

Isn't the "free market" supposed to work on the principle of supply and demand.

not much to rant about.

internet forums are good because of the diverse people in them.

epinions is good, but sometimes there are a rush of fake complainers posting along with the happy customers. Just look at some of the Bosch dishwasher reviews, and see the variety of personalities posting positives, and the single style of discourse coming from the numerous complainers. Also look at consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/appliances.htm and see how the complaints all sound the same, whether it's one of another appliance. No variety, smells fishy.

The advantage of a forum is the variety of sources. Example, here you can find out the weaknesses of side by side refrigerators as a class.

Prices for front loading washer have come down from ten years ago.

For a good quality Sears fridge from 20 years ago, you would have paid $500. Today the same quality costs $500 (much less than $500 in 1989 !!!) but its quality is deemed lower than average because technology has improved so much since 1989.

One reason you'll find negative posts on almost every brand is that most posting is done by disgruntled users - people who are happy with their appliances tend to post less.

As far as a fridge with a reliable ice maker, my 6 1/2 KA sxs fridge hasn't had any problems at all - ice maker works fine and I use it a lot.

People here want appliances cheaper and people on other forums want labor cheaper 'because of the economy'...All while, I guess, forgetting that expenses for businesses are going up like for the rest of us, and people and families are involved and affected at that end of the transaction, too. Gas for travel and delivery is no cheaper for the appliance store than for you. They have taxes and workers to pay, kids to feed, mortgages to pay. The manufacturers aren't paying less for materials and their workers don't want to/can't afford to take a cut in pay. The retailers paid a certain price for their merchandise and need to get a certain price back. Why expect them to take a big loss? That's my rant.

There are manufacturers with very good reputations for customer service and standing behind their products. There are those who don't seem to do as well. Saving money at the cash register may not save money in the long run, but spending more may not always guarantee anything better. It should be about long term value instead of the pricetag, and that's where research comes in. I found this forum to be much more helpful than things like Epinions and Consumer Reports, because people here usually can discuss more brands and models, and more recent models, and you'll often hear from the happy as well as the disappointed if you ask specific questions.

Go to a real appliance store. Not Sears, not the local Appliances-R-Us discounter. A place where they sell Sub-Zero and Wolf and Miele even if those are out of your price range, because they usually ALSO sell the better models of Whirlpool, Jenn-Air, Kitchenaid, etc. I found them to be very knowledgeable about who makes what and which brands they get called out to repair more often. (For example, one place stopped carrying X brand ranges because there were too many service calls and it was too hard to get parts.)

If it helps, I'm happy with my Bosch SxS fridge and my Whirlpool Cabrio HE toploader washer and matching dryer.

"Isn't the "free market" supposed to work on the principle of supply and demand. "

YEP, that's the macro theory. Practice on Main St. USA is a bit different. (micro)

Also, mgrs. don't just start slashing prices because their sales are off 10% from last year. Did you go to your boss and tell him you'd take less this year, or lower your fees if you're a professional? Why not - there's a recession on right?

David - I'm curious as to just what "quality" fridge you got in the late 80's for $500 bucks. Also what model today fits that bill? Is that fridge from the 80's still around and running. All of our fridges from the 70's and 80's (3) are still in place and going, but they weren't entry level or 500 bucks. Had a dishwasher too that's still going.

Is there a rule on this forum that ranting is a no-no? There is a responder here, who is an active member of this forum, whom, I notice often responds with an aggressive toned pontification. Sadly, this responder has alot of good points to bring to the table, but OUCH !!! this information is too painful to read.

Happs if you are sorry you ranted on this forum, I don't blame you.

Two major things have outstripped inflation in the past several decades in a big way. Cars, and college tuition. Cars, partly because of comfort/safety/technology. College tuition because of all the amenities that have been put in place. Our meal plan was a cafeteria that was marginally better than a public high school, now there are different dining "experiences".

You can still get a working appliance at a reasonable price but the consumer expectation is MUCH higher than it was 30 years ago because of "perceived need". Read a lot of the other threads in this forum and you will see that people "need" 6 burner, BTUs, CFMs, secondary beverage coolers, "satellite kitchens", snack areas.

Julia Child cooked on a GE; the wealthy had essentially the same appliances as everyone else, there simply weren't the features to differentiate that much between high end and low end. High end used to mean self clean vs. manual clean.

This all trickles down through the rest of the market. If SubZero has this feature, why shouldn't KitchenAid, and if KitchenAid, has it why not GE? etc. etc. And, it raises what is an "acceptable" range of features to the consumer, which, in turn, raises the price of what most people will buy.

Sometimes tones/attitudes are misread on a written forum. It's part of the downside. I used 'rant' in a joking way. More of a slight soapbox, really, and only to point out that people are hurting from several different directions in today's market.

rhome - I think my box just got whittled down too! Sorry folks, I learned from my Gran that candor was the best policy especially if you don't want anything.

happs - a rule of thumb I used was to read a lot of threads here and shop brands with low rates of complaint. There always will be some, of course. Also, that the conventional wisdom (here at any rate) is generally true. Generally. Few complaints about Kenmore, Kitchen Aid, f.ex. As for price, it might as well be Vegas.

I love my front loaders (Asko). My sister bought the Whirlpool pair and loves hers. Mine have a high speed spin that removes more water from the clothes than a top loader so stuff spends less time in the dryer. Also, I have a long counter on top of them -- very convenient.

Hang in there.

Rhome, you "ranted" without insulting the original poster. I don't think you're the grouch here. :)

palimpsest, You got it so right!!! We are talking about appliances here, not finding the best heart surgeon.

I agree with idrive65, go to a small, local appliance store that carries a full line of product. The one near me carries all high end, plus the "standard" brands, US and import, and they do their own repairs with their own service staff.

As a result, they can ask you a series of questions and help you narrow down pretty quickly. Example, when replacing my dishwasher, I thought I had some pretty simple "must haves" stainless steel tub, tall door with buttons not showing, built in food disposal (yep, I didn't want to deal with the filter cleaning)... seems these choices narrrowed me down to ONE brand, and three model choices!!! Who knew??? For my washer/dryer they did the same thing, and most recently for my fridge... btw... whirlpool gold, great ice maker capacity!!!

The one I go to does matching of all pricing you find, even online retailers, so find what you want model wise, and then shop for pricing and then go back to them, they are great to deal with and very knowledgeable... much more so than the box stores!

Well, supply and demand actually does work on Main Street, but most Main Street appliance stores don't have warehouses full of merchandise they have to move. They have what they can sell in X number of days. Where you see the growing discounts is as manufacturer rebates. Even so, it's going to depend on how "just in time" the maker is. They may have a minimum number of units they have to make to make the marginal costs of making any worthwhile. But some may just make less stuff when there's less demand.

Now, if you want a new car, you can really get a deal! At least around here there are fields of new cars begging for buyers, and excellent deals to be had.

"if you want a new car, you can really get a deal"

and people wonder why the auto industry is FUBAR?

They are slowly learning that you can't just make cars to keep folks busy and hope to heaven a bloated dealer network can somehow push them out the door. I think the attrition by the end of this year & next spring will mind boggling.

Most dealers I know have ZERO inventory. You place an order, then they place an order with the manuf. or a distributor. They are the ones that keep the inventory and usually set the prices.

happs, are you still with us?

I empathize with you, it is hard to know who and what to trust anymore, and taking chances with our money in these times, well, you know. The quality and reliability has changed within some of the brand names, making it difficult to compare the new appliances to the old.

All I can comment on, that may help you a tiny bit, are the washer and dryer. I have noticed a huge difference in the life of our clothing and that would make the extra cost worth it to me. We went from a top loading Maytag washer and dryer (old ones) to a used Miele Model W1918 washer and Miele Model T1520 dryer. The dryer takes some getting use to. It does not over dry your clothes and therefore items with thicker areas (heavy neckline/collar) will not dry completely in one cycle.

I know, I am talking about older models, but I think it at least speaks to FL vs TL.

To find better pricing, trying asking the stores about their floor models, dented or scratched, opened box, and discontinued models. We had a store in our area that had a separate warehouse for these items, with very good discounts.

"go to a small, local appliance store that carries a full line of product..." -- good point. I went to a couple, and they had some incredible deals BUT NOT advertised.

This combines what antss has said (no inventory) along with what others have said (specialty store) because these special local shops had received a small number of high-end appliances to sell at low low prices.

National brands don't do this, to keep margins and networks alive.

----

One thing I notice, is that there are $50 - $100 - $150 appliances (often in hardware stores), and then the price range goes from $500 - $1000 - $1500 and up once you move to another kind of store. It's a ten fold increase once you move to the "appliance" store.

what kind of major appliance can you get for $150 ???

An Igloo instead of a Sub Zero.

just as I thought

one of the reasons so many new appliances are not as good these days are that they must perform to a different standard. and many people (well, me at least) don't care about the standard. i'm not a save the planet guy......as george carlin said, the planet has been through a lot and it's still here. it's not going anywhere--------we are (and he has) . i have been in the market for a pre 1985 kitchen aid dishwasher (hobart made, not wp) which when i find, should last me 20+ years, with all repairs simple, other than getting the actual parts. they're built like tanks and use more water, but cost next to nothing (free-$100) , and don't quit in 5-7 years. i recently bought an old 24 inch deep frigidaire 15 cubic feet refrig for $50 (before they figured out that CD can be premium priced). based on the "kill a watt" i ran it on, it'll cost me $80 a year to run it, instead of the $20-30 of a new one with the same dimensions---a summit 24 inch deep 13+ cu ft at around $1350. at $60 a year more to run, i feel fine with this refrig. you do the math. captain planet can kiss my ### !!!

I've read all your responses and even visited one local appliance store but they didn't carry a Whirlpool Side x Side with a removable ice bucket inside the freezer door. I received a Lowe's 10% off coupon but I haven't used it yet because I haven't seen a sale on a Whirlpool side by side. It seems like they don't have very many sales on appliances. In their weekly ads, they just list the price, but never mention the regular price in comparison, like they do with other items. The same prices in the ads seem to cycle around. No blowout sales or deep discounts. Same thing with other chains. I'm still waiting for an ad to appear that says "Save XXX" on a particular item or Was XXX, now XXX." When I visit the store, no mention of any sales either. I thought May was a good month to buy appliances. I'd hate for the 10% off coupon to go to waste but it's really strange how there are no big discounts on appliances as there are on LCD tv's. I did see a Kitchen Aid Side x Side that was on clearance for $400 off, which would have been nice to apply the coupon to, but it was already marked sold. Guess you gotta visit everyday to find those deals.

I checked Consumer Reports and Epinions and Whirlpool and GE get high marks but I've decided on Whirlpool because of their removable ice maker bucket that's door mounted in the freezer. It takes up a lot less room than other manufacturers. I know the ice maker is the most trouble prone item in a refrigerator unit but I maximum freezer space and the most reliable ice maker unit in a 25 cu ft space (the most my kitchen will handle) are my two top priorities, hence my choice for Whirlpool. Ideally, I would have a heavy duty ice maker machine that's similar in size to a compactor mounted next to and underneath the kitchen sink and then get bottom freezer unit but that's not practical. I hope the industry will realize we are in a recession and that their sales are down and adjust prices accordingly.

Happs, we were in Lowes yesterday. Energy Star rated major appliances were 10% off the posted price. I believe that was all brands.

lowes will often have clearance appliances near the appliance aisle....is hit or miss and unadvertised. i occasionally see very good deals there.

Consumers in general have no idea what incredible value they get in appliances today. Manufacturers are screaming about losig money on every box and dealers are working on razor thin margins with the exception of the high-end showrooms.

Prices are slashed....trust me.

Not true for mid range and up. Appliance selling is pride based.

At the lower end of the market nobody is losing money manufacturing. Not like some other industries.

Could be true for appliance salespeople in the lower end, if their volume isn't enough to give them the increased commission rates.

I agree - I read on here about very expensive appliances and problems with them. My sister paid a lot for her kenmore appliances and has had problem after problem with them this past 1.5 yrs (since she built). they have mostly GE in kitchen so I'll have to ask about those. tho I don't like buying GE because of the guy running it.

I also see no need to pay tons of money for these things. I used a 'I have no idea what brand' oven for 15 yrs raising 4 kids. there are microwaves bigger than that oven nowadays.

and I had a 4 burner corning cooktop. pain in the butt in the 70's. my maytag W/D did last a good 20 yrs tho.

I cooked and baked a lot over the yrs. I never had a stove vent until in my 30's! didn't know you were supposed to have one. don't think you were back then.

what raises the cost on appliances these days is people want all the latest doodads on them. and they want them BIG. unless you have 8 or more kids or are running a restaurant out of you home, I don't see the need.

I won't be buying those things for my remodel. will continue to use my about 18 cu ft fridge that I bought for 800.00 in '98 (at a local appl store). I won't be getting the things I really 'wanted' because they cost too much. i'll buy what I need at a price I can afford. I will shop at the appl store again and will use my hotplate/counter oven until I find what I need at a good price.

I won't be near as upset having problems with a 900.00 range than one I paid 2,000.00 to get.

I don't think my frugal self would pay more than 1,000.00 on an appliance.

btw, if you're talking about those plastic bins to put your ice in - they sell them at Walmart for a few dollars. dump your made ice into one of those and put the original back in place to keep on making more ice. An ice maker isn't something I'd pay to have in a fridge tho (only because my water is bad and I won't drink it so I don't want ice made from it).

people today regularly pay several hundred more per appliance to get SS.

I have a Whirlpool side by side and Love it! No problems in almost 5 years, knock on wood. I take that back, I had a slight problem with the ice maker storage bin which links to the dispenser. One day I got some ice through the dispenser and a piece of plastic came out in the ice. I took the entire ice storage unit out and looked online and had to buy a new one. But the ice maker/fridge/freezer have never given me trouble at all, nor has my whirlpool range, microwave. One problem with the dishwasher is that the rinse aid dispenser leaks so I can't put rinse aid in there but the dishwasher still works great. I think out of all the brands, whirlpool is the least repair prone. I'm glad the builder that built my house used Whirlpool. Now lets see how long it will take since I've raved about them for something to go wrong!

Where do you go to get the real scoop?
I think you're in the right place, just make sure to read through the lines because this forum is known to have a few shills for appliance dealers lurking about. You should be able to easily discern who is giving you straight scoop and whose opinion should be removed with the doggy scoop.

Re: deals, I don't know where you live, but if you are anywhere near the Metro NYC area (and probably any large metro area in the US), local independent dealers usually take the big stores to school price-wise. That's definitely the case in the Northeast. But again, most of the salespeople have their SPIFFS in mind, so you may not get a straight answer.

And trust me, dealers are definitely moving floor models and such in clearance sales. For $1400 you can get a sweeeeet piece. You need to LOOK.

Good luck

AF
www.appliancefetish.com