IMO, this is General Motor's desperate attempt at reversing their recent self-inflicted misfortunes. They are hoping that since it worked for the Koreans, it can also work for them. Of course, the warranty only covers the powertrain which from my personal experience rarely fails during that period anyway.

To me this is mostly fluff and a huge marketing scheme. If they (meaning all struggling auto makers) really want to increase sales/profits, they don't need to reinvent the wheel... just build great vehicles at a good value and stand behind them for the reasonable period of time should something goes wrong instead of trying to find ways to weasel your way out of it most of the time to save a $1 or two. Easier said than done??? The folks at Toyota & Honda don't seem to think so.

Maybe someday I'll post my recent experience with a serious fire hazard on a Ford Contour under "recall" that FoMoCo didn't seem very interested to fix.

Extending warranties are no more than another gun to the head of every independent technician. Cars that should be showing up to us for repairs will get directed to the dealers because of expectation that the repair could, and maybe will be under a warranty. With some kind of a deductable fee ($50, or $100).

The worst thing about extending warranties, is the warranties are not free. The cost to administer them is factored into the sale price of the car. Whether you use it or not, your going to pay for it, up front. Plus as I said you will also lose guys like me in the independent sector so even when there is no longer a warranty, it may be too late and you wont have any choice but to continue going to the dealer.

Ditto what john_g said.

Semper_fi, Of coarse it's marketing. IMO, not selling enough vehicles isn't the reason for GM's problems. The percentage of their products on the road is already substantial, Ford too. The problem is due to financial obligations made long ago. I don't think the financial health of these companies is in question in other countries, just here. Selling more cars here will put a band-aid on the wound, but they'll still have to reduce costs somehow. jmo

My ex had a mid-80s Chrysler with the famous 7/70 warranty. That thing was a piece of rubble by the time the payment book was empty. So much for that warranty.

A warranty like that sometimes is a mark of confidence; other times (most times) it's just marketing and they figure the hassle and exclusions and deductions which are part of claiming on that warranty will keep the number of claimants below the cost of offering it in the first place.

A client who owns a Kia with the 100K warranty was griping to me the other day how her vehicle literally spends more time at the dealership than in her own driveway! Go figure!

IMO, one of the biggest reasons for the big automakers' success in the past was due to strong customer loyalty. As that foundation has been erroded so has their ability to dominate the market. Loyalty and trust are MUCH harder to regain once they have been squandered. I think this is just another futile effort at regaining that lost trust.

Nice it sits at the dealer everytime it breaks because it has a warranty. As I said....

I still maintain GM designs the cars to be disposable so they could improve the quality if they wanted to but further cost cutting and disgruntled, insecure workers will make it challenging.

i`am kind of mixed on it, as a hyundai owner 4 of them in the last 8 yrs, the 100 thou. warranty is a pain, you have to maintain the car to what the company recomends, as in 15000 mile powr strg fluid change, 30000 mile auto trans flush, 60000 mile timing belt change etc, if not on record and these things should fail, for get it. now this is good maintenance sure, but would i do it if not for the warranty? nope! oil change every 6 or 7 thsnd miles and auto trans fluid at 50k thats it. so you pay for the warranty. myself i wish someone would make a car thats sealed for a 150k, buy it dont touch it,trade it in at a 150k on another one.

There is such a automaker only their warranty is only 3y/36k and that automaker is called toyyyyyyyyyota. Drive it like you hate it and when it still refuses to quit that's about the time the paint job will start to look really bad and then after 4 new model years have passed you'll probably want a new one by then. Don't take my word for it, go to edmunds weebsite and read the driver reviews on older models and you'll see I am not making this up.

Drive it like you hate it and when it still refuses to quit that's about the time the paint job will start to look really bad and then after 4 new model years have passed you'll probably want a new one by then.

Hrmmm. Wonder why 89% of the car-buying world buys something other than a Toyota?? Toyota certainly makes a competent vehicle and they do continuously improve what they make. I've recommended to several folks that they buy one. But Toyotas are nowhere near perfect. And there's obviously something about them that the vast majority of the car-buying public doesn't like, or they'd own them. Just sayin'...

i also own a toyota, 01 tacoma it had 3/36 and a 5/50 drivetrain. never have done anything to it but oil changes. never really cared for the truck, at the time i bought it, i had a ranger, but couldnt get a good trade on another one. got a good trade on the toyota. on the bad side its 22 miles to the toyota dealer, only 4 miles to the ford dealer. i hate driving 22 miles for service. oh well its up for sale, dont have much need for a pickup anymore.

Ran into a friend today that I hadn't seen for a while. He had just came from the Toyota dealer. He took his Avalon in for an oil change. After $480 he was out the door. They insisted that the brake fluid and power steering fluid had to be flushed and replace with new. Have any of you Toyota owners had to do this? And how often does it have to be flushed. Also how do you know these systems were flushed? Or do they just suck the fluid out of the reservoirs top it off with about $5 worth of fluid and send you on your way.

Bob, I think you already know the answer!

The local Toyota dealership here charges $9.95 for their oil changes. If I go to their parts deparment, 4.5 qts of their oil and 1 OE filter will cost well over that amount even at wholesale prices. So you do the math. The only way they can do this and still stay in business is by finding "problems" with most every car they service. They would like to think that they are actually doing the general motoring public a favor by bringing these issues to their attention. Me think that the majority of it is unnecessary and perhaps even unethical with so much honest work out there to be had.

SteveO,
I didn't mean to suggest they were perfect, only their vehicles can't be beat domestically in terms of reliability.
There are several reasons I believe Toyota to have a smaller market share in the US (although the most recent numbers suggest they are king of the hill with consumers and has market share around 20% if my memory serves me. There was an article last week I saw that I was actually going to post here but I can't remember where I saw it.)
Toyota doesn't distribute commercial vehicles in the US. (Not counting Hino). If they had an equivalent to the Ford F-450 or F-550 or even the superduty this would be different. If they had a piece of the police cruiser pie this would also change. In my county the police use primarly Impalas and Intrepids. Both comparable in size to the avalon give or take an inch or two.
For goodness sakes they got those stinkin mini cargo vans all over Japan. They need to understand we need bigger vehicles here and cargo vans are incredibly popular. I would buy a Toyota cargo van if they made an equiv to the econoline.
Sizes & capabilities... They continually strive to be the smallest and most economical. Lack of size and engine, transmission and wheelbase configurations shuts them out from a lot of people who need the truck for work but also for recreational towing such as travel trailers and boats. This makes their pickups popular with neo-redneck suburbanites only. Serious pickup users will not be able to work with Tundra.
For example, I can put a hand-truck/dolly in the passenger side of the cab of a Silverado but not inside the tundra. An extra 4 inches would make a world of difference. Heck, an 8' box would make a world of difference!
Whereas Dodge keeps making their 1500 bigger and bigger and bigger, Toyota doesn't seem to "get" that we want bigger freaken trucks. Size really matters. We could give a flying turd about gas mileage when we're towing a dozen horses in a 5th wheel with a domestic dually.
Marketing. Toyota hasn't changed a thing with their outlook on life in 30 years. They keep going after value-minded consumers that are after reliable vehicles that are good on gas and have a low cost of ownership but still have a decent level of standard features. Most of the US are rednecks that wouldn't be caught DEAD in a toy box. I keep using pickup trucks as an example so this time I'll use Expedition and Escalade. You don't see many pro ballers or rappers driving landcruisers. Bigger! We want bigger in this country. We can't get enough space in our SUV's. We want to feel like we're on top of the world financially so we want the biggest SUV we can get to tote the brats to soccor practice and we want the biggest, meanest looking pickup to feel like tough guys.
"Build Ford Tough" has absolutely nothing to do with how the trucks are made!!! Everytime those commercials come on I get a chuckle. It's how you as a driver, feel driving a ford pickup. They (toyota) aren't taken seriously for this reason.

Or take a lesson from Dodge. Give us a "hemi"! 80% of the people that want a vehicle with a hemi don't even know the origins of the hemi or what it is. All they know is "Ain't it got a hemi or don't it got a hemi?"

They had a winner with the Supra, It wasn't a muscle car by any stretch.. definitely more of a rice rocket but it did have a huge following and it could compete with domestic offerings. They haven't replaced this and from what I understand no plans to ever distribute a mid sized sports coupe here. This leaves a certain segment of our population seeking out mustangs and camaros or even... I hate to say it but Honda civics. The supra just didn't fit with the 'good value' theme I guess. Horrible dealers
The dealers are not representative of the automaker. They don't make it easy to buy a toyota and there isn't always good offers. It's much easier to buy any other brand of vehicle in the US than toyota. Not that they are more expensive per se, but at least in the atlanta market, they go after easy targets for high interest rates... people with poor credit. As was mentioned, their service departments also aren't very good. If they want to gouge people on unnecessary car maintenance they should open up a jiffy lube on the corner of the property and not affiate it with the toyota brand.

See, I really don't like buying toyotas. I like one thing only and that's that the cars are made well and last a long time. In fact, I plan to drive my toy boxes until they're ready for the crusher since I really don't want to rush back to buy another one anytime soon. I'm not a real trendy guy when it comes to cars. Just make it go and carry all my crap.

If I didn't need trucks and had the dough, that LS-450 that paralell-parks itself would in my garage.

IIRC, Toyota is number two in U.S. sales -- or a close third with Ford, depending on how and what you measure. They sell even better on both coasts than they do in Flyoverland. My point was mainly that, while Toyotas definitely have their attractions, there are plenty of valid reasons for choosing something else: need (as you noted, there is no Toyota "Econoline"), good (or available) local service, crashworthiness, etc. I chose my VW knowing full well that it was not going to be as troublefree as a Toyota. However, Toyota won't sell me a diesel (yet) and I know I'd rather be in my Jetta than in a Corolla in an accident. We each make our choices. :-)

Funny you mention the VW turbodiesel. That would be my main attraction also. The jetta styling is also much nicer than carolla. Another lesson toyota hasn't yet learned is how to design cars for the American palatte. With the exception of the latest era of minivans. I don't think we're in Japan anymore, Toto.

Latest tv ad for carolla ("Would you like to come in for a slurpee") emphasizes the gas mileage. And a weak attempt at sex appeal. It's clear they aren't targeting performance or safety-minded buyers. Maybe they tried it in the past and it didn't work. Who knows.

Heh. There is a "Toto" in Japan -- the company makes bathroom fixtures (including one that can do just about everything except perform surgery on you).

well i sold my toyota pickup, nice thing about toyota they bring a big price. now i`am heading to ford to buy a new ranger, its the last of the small pickups. figure i better get one now, b-4 they go big. i hate big vehicles.

bill,

{{gwi:1409982}}

This is a Daihatsu Hijet
These are distrubted in the US, mostly by golf cart dealers.
Also comes as a van.

Neat little thing to scoot around town in. 1.2L engine. Optional AWD.

Guaranteed to turn heads even if you don't install a lift kit and 36" tires.

If the new compact pickups are too big then this might be the truck for you.

now that would be perfect for my use. i saw alot of those type trucks when i was on grand cayman, also in the bahamas. they really losd them up. well if gas price soar to where i think they will in the next couple yrs, might see those in abundance here.

I don't know about where you are... statistically sales of gas guzzlers is declining but in my area there doesn't appear to be any increase in vehicles with good gas mileage over the guzzlers.

I was thinking it would be neat to have one if the microvans (too small to be a mini!). I had seriously thought about turning in my tundra at lease end and using my other toybox for long drives and get one of these daihatsus for driving around town or sitting in traffic/construction. In a year and a half of payments equivalent to what I was paying on the lease, I would own the microvan free and clear.

According to this ebay listing they aren't street legal here. That could pose a problem.

Unfortunately I fail to see how this action is going to change people's minds at this stage of the game. Think about the level of quality that GM is churning out right now. It's not particularly good. Now among the "Big 3", I think they are about the best, both from product and the way that treat you as a customer. (Some may beg to differ). However, they repeatedly demonstrate the lack of will to step up to the plate when some sort of design defect occurs. Example: the intake manifold gasket issues for the 3.1 and 3.4 engines. It took some prompting, but Toyota at least did what I would expect an auto manufacturer to do with the engine sludge issues they had. So when you make a comparison of what you actually get for your money, GM tends to lose out, extra warranty or not. GM needs to lose the corporate mindset it currently adheres to and produce a better quality product and back it up for real.
I've driven GMs for 25 years or more, but my latest experiences with them have been abysmal, the quality of the product has deteriorated substantially.

I have not only driven GM vehicals for 25 years.I still have a few of them.Example a 1971 Chevy Cheyenn pickup truck.Its going strong at nearly 36 years old.Show me a Toyota that still has it original bed after just half that time.Show me a import brand that has not broke its wind up rubber band any where close to that time.

My cousin has a Nissan car.Not sure the model.They all look the same to me.She thinks its great.She had it in the shop awhile back.They had it for 10 days.It had a few issues she said.I asked what was the hold up.Her response was there booked up very busy.I said but how could the be possible?There perfect never break and are so much better then a GM.She looked at me like I was nutts!IF I ever took a GM vehical to a shop that was under warranty like she did the Nissan and had to wait 10 days because of the other broken down Nissans.I sure would not tell it to a GM FAN.

GM vehicles USED TO BE relatively decent value for the money. If they still are, then why are the forums so FULL of tales of grief with GM products? People are not so stupid as to invest hard earned moeny and then forgo maintaining them to the point that the dealer will not honour the warranty because of it. Precisely why do sites like gmsucks.net continue to show up? Have you owned a GM vehicle with a 3.1 or a 3.4? Does your pickup have the side-saddle mount gas tanks?
See & change the xx of course.
hxxp://consumerlawpage.com/article/gas_tank_safety.shtml

If GM is now so reliable, and the company so willing to step up to the plate when blatant design defects arise, then there wouldn't have been all the talk of "possible bancrupty" a short time ago, the customers would be flocking in.

exgm.

There are so many things wrong with what you are saying, it isn't worth my time to rebut them all. GM is the world leader in new technology, and has been for decades. Cars are machines, not an appliance like a toaster. They are going to break, and people do have to spend money to maintain them. It's the idiots that think they should be able to drive a car 100,000 miles, and not invest anything into maintanence that have hurt GM. But GM is going to have the last laugh on that issue. Being the biggest GM naturally got the biggest share of idiots buying their product. But these same people who refused to properlly maintain their GM vehicles, who are now buying Toyota's, and Honda' etc. and not maintianing them are the ones that are experiencing the alledged Toyota engine sludging problems. There is nothing wrong with Toyota engines, other than they are being bought by people who don't maintain them correctly. Toyota is making good on many of these, but it's a rippoff for them, a rippoff that they have to pass onto the rest of the public.

Everything that goes wrong with a car does not have to be under a warranty. You don't gurantee everything that you have ever done for everybody, forever. I'm pretty sure just about everyone who reads this response will be in the same boat. Reasonable warranties are expected. Unreasonable warranty demands are destroying good businesses. GM's money woe's are because they agreed to take care of their employee's after retirement at a level that has turned out to be much more expensive than it was originally thought to be. That's life, they will deal with it.

As far as the 3.1, and 3.4l intake gaskets go, GM has warrantied a lot of them, even though they were out of the agreed upon warranty that the customer accepted when they bought the car. Insisting on them extending the warranty further is in essence, going back on your word. If they choose to do so, fine. There is nothing wrong with asking either. But demanding it, is at the very least hypocritical, and at the worst a rippoff by you for all of the other GM customers that actually end up paying for it.

I'm not going to debate the issue, the problems are real, and they are affecting GMs bottom line. The gasket issues are a latent defect, as evidenced by the redesigned gasket set. Like it or not you are the beta tester for GM.

As for your comment on the Toyota oil sludge issue, some more research on your part is recommended. People who maintained their vehicles were still affected. As a result, you will find that the oil gallery diameter was increased on the affected engine to alleviate the issue. Toyoya "stepped up to the plate". The "buyer didn't maintain their car" excuse sounds like something a dealer would intorduce. Funny thing is, people who follow the owners manual for service and keep their invoices, win repeatedly in small claims court if the dealer balks. For my part my GM dealers have been extremely good about any issues under warranty, and some outside of it because they admit GM has problems and want me back. Too bad the quality of the product they receive has deteriorated to the degree it has.

My previous (80's / 90s) GMs were built way better and with better quality components than what's being pushed out the door now.

I own one of the so-called trouble Toyotas. I'll pull the valve cover anytime so someone can take a look. No fancy oils, nothing special at all being done to this car, except the correct oil, changed between 3000-3500 miles. The oil is barely changing color at that point, and the car has 50K+ on it. There will be no sludge to be found, none at all.

ASE CMAT L1, Independent self employed technician.

John_g - asolutely, I don't doubt for a minute that your engine is as you say. I've got an 80's GM and I can say the same, because I changed the oil at a similar interval.

But let's look at the current crop of GMs with the oil life monitor. "Unless you tow or operate in dusty conditions" etc, you wait for this to illuminate because it uses an "advanced algorithm". GM sites and other independent "pros" tout this feature. I've decided to follow it because quite frankly the vehicle with it is not one I intend to drive much longer. It's also the first one I've ever had where the PCV valve is actually starting to sludge, but I can produce all the paperwork I need to prove it was maintained according to the manufacturer's requirements.

Take a step back to my previous GM with a 3.1 - it was maintained according to a far more rigorous schedule especially for oil changes. It had no such oil life monitor. Yet that engine still developed the intake manifold gasket issue simply because the design concept was flawed. The original gasket was approx 1/4" plastic with a neoprene like insert that didn't stand up to the different thermal coefficients inherent with dissimilar metals present in the engine design.

So yes, when the design is decent, good maintenance helps. If you have a flawed design concept, you could change the oil every week and still have component failure.

So what's the big deal? Take it apart and replace the gasket if it fails! There's much more difficult things to ever have to do with cars. If you can't do it, that's what people like me are for.

**As for your comment on the Toyota oil sludge issue, some more research on your part is recommended.**

exgm, do you have a link to some legit research done on this? I'm not talking about some bs from the offices of dewy cheetem and howe, class action attorneys like your other link. Or some bash-a-brand site. In my day, I saw a number of engines with sludge. I can say 100% without a doubt there were specific causes or combinations there of for every one. Those causes were the engine never getting up to operating temperature, the oil change interval extended way too far, use of non detergent engine oil, and operation in a very dirty envirornment. Those are the only causes I know of for sludge formation in an engine period. If you can find and post some scientific research that explains how that happens in a particular engine where those conditions I mentioned were not present, I'd be interested in that.

As to the gm problem, john_g hit the nail on the head as usual. The financial problems are due to contractual obligations made to currant and former employees, specifically union wages and conditions, pensions, and especially health care insurance. Car companies that have not been doing business here for a hundred years...read jap and other foreign cars, don't have those long term commitments to thousands and thousands of people who no longer work for them. It's not the products. That's not to say they don't come out with a loser sometimes. You'll find flaws in anything built by humans from time to time. jmo

I have a 05 Buick with a 3.1 it only has 14000 miles but im not expecting a problem for many miles if at all.I had a Pontiac 6000 with basically the same engine and it never had a problem from the time I had it 65000 miles when I bought it to 156000 miles when I sold it.The 3.8 is supposibly a problem engine also.Same head gasket story.But my Buick Regal is a 1994 with 134000 and no problem.

As for warranty issues.Every small problem I have ever had has been taken care of by GM without cost to me and in a reasonable amount of time.I do not think I have ever had one in the shop over night?10 days would be a way to loose my business.There never to busy to get my problems solved fast.But I have never had anything but minor thing done on a in warranty vehical.

As for the older ones being better made.I do not see it.I feel the quality is better today then in the 80's.and much better then the 70's.One noticable improvement is better metal.They do not have rust issues like years past.

I can't help but laugh about the irony of this thread and the one that worm started. Here we are talking about the results of not taking proper care of a car, and his thread is all about intentionally doing just that. There is no magic oil that can be run "forever".

"Consumers" at large truly don't know what auto technicians are up against these days, and what the very near future holds. The sad part is, I don't believe a large number of them care about us at all. A few weeks ago I contributed to an article that was in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette written by Don Hammond. Even this article falls short of just what is going on.

Yesterday a local bodyshop that buys a lot of totalled cars, and rebuilds them showed uphere with a 2006 Jeep Liberty. This thing had 69 miles on it. He had six things not working correctly. With all of the money I have spent through the years to have tools and equipment, there was nothing that I could do for him, yet. My Chrysler DRBIII (The factory tool, same one the dealers use) does not work on the CAN system. I have $9000 invested in just this one tool. I have to go buy a "Star Scan", or "Star Soft" to have the factory tool to work with this newer Chrysler product. That's another $5000 for just one Chrysler dedicated tool. Then I'd still have to pay for a temporary subscription to the Chrysler factory website for the service information, at $20. for three days. Multiply this situation by virtually every manufacturer out there, except for GM, and you have a good picture of whats going on.

More than any other manufacturer, GM provides me with easy access to service information and tools, and parts to help me care for their customers. The $7000 that I have invested in GM specific tools, are the most reasonable expense I have to bear. Honda for instance, as mentioned in this article has their factory tool price around $9000, for less than 3% of the potential work that I can do, and continued subscription for the software is required ($1400/yr) or else the tool turns off!

BTW GM is slated to switch to a new tool for the 2009's but will continue to support the Tech II at least until 2015. Toyota is slated to continue to share their platform with GM, at least that is the word that I heard last. Same base tool, just a different software cartridge.

Here is a link that might be useful: Post Gazette Article

I have to go buy a "Star Scan", or "Star Soft" to have the factory tool to work with this newer Chrysler product. That's another $5000 for just one Chrysler dedicated tool. Then I'd still have to pay for a temporary subscription to the Chrysler factory website for the service information, at $20. for three days. Multiply this situation by virtually every manufacturer out there, except for GM, and you have a good picture of whats going on.

John, does this hold true for GM imports as well (Daewoo, Holden [Pontiac GTO], etc.)? How about for, say, Ford/Mazda/Volvo -- are they in the same family or separate? Do you see a consolidation in this field among brand families or do you think it's a way for the dealer to hang on to some repair business?

John_g - depends on how detailed a report you're looking for. We are of course deviating from the thread.

Here's a few links outside of the "rant" category (change the xx to tt of course)

hxxp://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm

hxxp://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9008601&contentId=7012452

hxxp://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm

hxxp://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm

hxxp://p2library.nfesc.navy.mil/P2_Opportunity_Handbook/6_II_3.html http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=889&relatedbookgroup=OilAnalysis

John, does this hold true for GM imports as well (Daewoo, Holden [Pontiac GTO], etc.)? How about for, say, Ford/Mazda/Volvo -- are they in the same family or separate? Do you see a consolidation in this field among brand families or do you think it's a way for the dealer to hang on to some repair business?

The operative word is "depends". I can't speak for Daewoo, or Holden, or for that matter a new GTO. I've never had any in the shop to look at. I'll have to dig into my service information to even try and find out.

As far as Ford goes, they went from the NGS, which I do have to the PDS/IDS platform about two years ago, which I don't have. So far Hickok corportation, who actually made the NGS for Ford has produced updates, that have allowed me to affordably stay up to date through 2006, while sacrificing some potential jobs. To date, I have managed to miss the holes in the NGS coverage, which really means if I had bought a PDS/IDS, I would not have actually needed it, yet. The day will come when the NGS won't support a car or system that a customer will need. I'll have to decide then if I can afford to spend the $3000-$4000 for the new equipment, or if I simply send that car back out the door.

Volvo is it's own tool all together, I'll never own one. There is no way I'm spending more than $15,000 for a tool that only works on less than 1% of the cars on the road.

john_g

earlier you mentioned
"So what's the big deal? Take it apart and replace the gasket if it fails! There's much more difficult things to ever have to do with cars. If you can't do it, that's what people like me are for."

Yeah, I've done a few, and an olds 307 where the dissimilar metals in that essentially make the gasket and the intake manifold sacrificial. The 3.1 has an upper and a lower (best do both) to change. Parts are cheap, labor isn't.

You charge what for this?

Why would I pay off your mortgage instead of mine, or spend my personal time for an inherent design defect?

I know, I know "they're all like that"

Actually I don't think so. My 20 year plus Malibu has it's originals, but that engine's all cast iron, the thermal coefficient of the metal is the same.

Don't take my word for it check it out, there a wealth of information out there. At least GM has "improved" the gasket set, but there's an awful lot of consumer's money spent on this repair, and GM isn't stepping up to the plate to do anything about it.

So for their 5 year warranty now, if you buy, do the service by the book, keep all the workorders. If you've got a problem, then you'll be covered for the parts and labor.

"Why would I pay off your mortgage instead of mine, or spend my personal time"

And here we have it, the real root of the issue. As an auto technician that owns my own business, there is one undeniable truth. The instant that the price tug of war starts, I will lose something. It's impossible for me to come out of any of these kinds of confrontations without suffering some type of loss. What you dont understand is gross profit, does not equal my paycheck. Even if there is $300-$400 gross profit in one of these intake jobs (That is about average) My actual take home from that job is less than 25% of that. That's how expensive it is for me to do what I do, and seriously, I could spend every penny on improving the business, take nothing at all home, and still be losing ground to the changes that are occuring in the field.

You don't want to bet on who has a smaller home/mortgage. The sixty year old 625 sq/ft Cape Cod we have is the first and last house I'll ever be able to afford. I just hope I live long enough to pay it off. Retirement is out of the question, there is nothing left to save each month. The business eats every penny.

You've skewed the meaning by not quoting the entire context.
The example of the gasket was used because in a properly designed scenario, it's not a comsumable. Under general use, it should last for a long time, if not the life of the vehicle. Three gaskets in less than 38,000 miles (dealer installed - under warranty) indicates some sort of issue, either with the design, the parts, or the installer or a combination of the three.
If I need tires for example, or exhaust components that I don't feel like working on myself, guess where the vehicles go - yes, to an independent. And when I'm presented with the bill, I pay it, I'm not nickel and diming him.
So please, let's make it clear what I'm saying. I'm not talking about griping to GM about the fact consumables didn't last past the warranty or the life of the vehicle. And I'm not saying don't take your car in for routine service or consumables.

"Three gaskets in less than 38,000 miles (dealer installed - under warranty) indicates some sort of issue, either with the design, the parts, or the installer or a combination of the three. "

I can absolutely assure you that such repeated failure almost always falls under the latter category. They are either not cleaning the mating surfaces and/or not torquing the bolts properly.

I have done a TON of these jobs on 3.1/3.4/5.7L GM engines and back it with an outstanding warranty. I have never had a signle comeback. Even the fleet vehicles which rack up the miles very quickly that have had this work done have been trouble free many moons later.

John, have you ever considered not spending as much $$$$$ into dealer level equipment??? Having been around this industry and doing work for a lot of other local repair facilities, I know a lot of small shops often suffer because they feel like they HAVE to have the latest and greatest tools just to one up the other shops. Me, I decided long ago that unless a tool offered my business a decent return on my investment that I wouldn't just automatically make the leap just to please a few clients and/or impress my colleagues. For example, why should I spend that kinda money on a DRBIII that cannot be updated unless one had an inside connection at a dealership just to flash a few MOPAR modules here and there??? Instead, on rare occasions that such tool is required to do the job, I sublet the work back to the dealer. Everybody wins! *IF* the time came that I saw enough demand for such service to make it fairly profitable, then and only then, I would add that tool to my arsenal.

I have seen guys in our field having to work well into their 70's just to make ends meet. I just hate to see the diminishing top notch people in this industry to suffer unnecessarily like this.

Yea I have considered not spending as much money, in fact lately it's not a choice. I have to stop, for a while anyway. Nothing new is going to be bought at the end of this year. The DRBIII actually comes with three years of updates in the initial price. I always thought of that as a ploy Chrysler used to try and discourage shops from actually buying it. I bought it anyway. My DRBII is paid off in January, and my last update should show up shortly after that. From there I'll run with the tool as far as it goes, simpy because I'll either need starscan, or starsoft anyway for the newer Chrysler vehicles.

"You've skewed the meaning by not quoting the entire context."

That's my perogative to do just that. You (and a lot of consumers) actually do just the same with many of the cuts thrown at us that have to do with costs and profitability. That is why you brought up your concern about paying someones mortgage. You refuse to see that the answers are much more complicated and the "free to me" attitude you want to take.

"If I need tires for example, or exhaust components that I don't feel like working on myself, guess where the vehicles go - yes, to an independent."

Really?? I would have guessed Wal-Mart e.g......

semper_fi
Yes, you are in all liklihood correct about the prep, because the indie who did my van (plastic body - I'm not working on those, it's jut too restricted) using the old gasket set before the new one came out obviously did it up right because that one lasted the longest of any. Unfortunately, when the dealership is doing the work, in the interest of continuing the warranty, I will continue to go there.

john_g
re your
"Really?? I would have guessed Wal-Mart e.g......"
A good tech never makes assumptions, he gets the facts.
And you as a business man should also understand money management.