Are you piping this bathroom in Cast Iron pipe and using copper supply lines?

Is the shower pan liner getting a preslope first?

Does this price include permits? Meeting with inspectors?

Will the new work be isolated and flood tested (drain and vent lines)?

Will the new water lines be air or water tested under pressure?

Your price seems high but if the shower is going to be redone and redone right there is a lot of work in preforming these tests and building things right.

Hi johnfrwhipple, Hmmm. I'll try to answer your questions. Please excuse my ignorance!

1) Re cast iron pipe and copper supply lines...I don't know. Do we need new pipe and water supply lines since all the plumbing is basically in place? What I mean is that the two sinks, bathtub filler, and shower head/handle are already in place in the existing bathroom. We want to upgrade them but not move them.

I guess I thought that since we will reuse the existing shower head and on/off handle fixture we wouldn't have to touch any of the lines inside the wall. The wall is only being retiled and resheetrocked, but not moving.

We will use a preformed Swanstone pan on the shower floor, not tile. Do you need a preslope when you are using a solid surface material and its pre-made?

I guess my ignorance is showing but I don't know about the testing either. I guess I thought that since the lines are already in place for all the various water sources that we didn't have to do that much testing and it was a pretty straightforward job mostly entailing replacing things that are "showing" not stuff inside the walls.

Does this help?

Master plumbers are good to have, for the stuff behind the walls. These people have tons of education, insurance, licensing, etc. This has to be paid for, so their rates are like dentists' rates. Normally expensive.

A "repair" plumber can be almost anyone, even an unlicensed person. They are often legally entitled to work for a homeowner on the "visible parts" (your words) like stop valves, P traps and handles. Often they are legally forbidden from working for contractors. Maybe your contractor cannot hire one. It varies so find out what rules apply where you are.

You decide what to delegate to a contractor who delegates then to a plumber and each of these persons takes a slice for their insurance and other overhead, and for overseeing the work, which might then be performed by a young new apprentice. I once paid full rates to a Master plumber who sent his apprentice and said he would "supervise" by being available on his cell phone, and neither he nor the apprentice ever called each other, all day long. In other words, I supervised the apprentice myself. (That's a Code violation, but it was the plumber's "call" to manage his affairs this way, on that day in question...)

Hope this helps you get the picture.

Many DIY's take their faucet apart when a washer or O ring no longer holds a seal. It saves them money. They prevent their cabinets from rotting. This is how I got started; this is what made me decide to learn a whole lot more about plumbing.

Many DIY's learn basic plumbing so that they feel they really know what they are doing, and they feel more able to work on "the visible parts".

Although there are many pitfalls in plumbing, there are also many excellent resources that enable you to learn more and figure out what to re-do if you haven't got it right. Plumbing can be hard.

h.t.h.
-d

First, pricing can be regional. You don't have your location on your profile. As an example, I live in CT, a few years ago my sister moved to KY. I went down there to help gut and remodel her house in Lexington. At that time here in CT, it was costing me about $30-$35 a sheet to have a crew hang, tape and mud a single sheet of drywall. Down there an excellent crew was charging $6 per sheet, and their work was excellent.

The other wild card in your bid is the shower pan. Price can vary due to the size, the type, etc. I could see a typical pan running $700-$1200, that leaves $1300-$1800 to do the other plumbing work, which could be done in a day. That's a lot of $$ for a day's labor.

Still, it's difficult to say yea or nay to the pricing without seeing the work environment, that would help to better define the scope of work.

The best advice would be to ask your GC to get bids from other plumbers, or to ask him if you could solicit a bid from a plumber on your own.

Okay, here's an update. I just ran down to the local plumbing supply store to ask if I could get new trim kits to update the looks of my Moen Monticello faucets. The answer was yes...sorta. I can get a new trim kit for my shower handle. I can get a new trim kit for my bath tub filler. So, what needs to be done there is very cosmetic. It seems fairly straight forward.

A little more time consuming perhaps are the existing sink faucets. I learned that centerset faucets have the plumbing attached and when you remove the faucet, the "guts" comes out too. This means I will have to buy new valves (I'm planning on a widespread faucet) and the "guts" -- sorry for my non technical language-- has to be replaced for the sink faucets and the drains will need to be reattached. I did like a faucet from another manufacturer, but bearing in mind my budget it seems much smarter to stick with Moen and reuse the existing valves to save money on labor and parts.

This means that, as far as plumbing goes, the plumber will only have to:

1) install a new trim kit for the shower handle (we are keeping the shower head)
2) install a new trim kit for the bathtub filler (we are keeping the current location and current valves)
3) install new faucets in roughly the same location, sinks, and attach drains.
4) install a new toilet.

So, do I need cast iron pipe and copper supply lines? I thought that was what went inside the walls. Am I mistaken..again, I'm ignorant...but do we need those things if we're not changing anything inside the walls?

The big unknown here is the premolded shower pan which honestly, I thought was something the contractor was going to do as part of retiling the shower. It seems what the plumber has to do for the shower pan is to reconnect the drain. Is that it or am I missing something?

$2550 still seems like a lot. I am getting competing bids. Thank you mongoct for that suggestion about getting other bids. That is excellent advice. Problem is I like this contractor and other thant the plumbing his prices do seem in line.

Oh, almost forgot...is it customary to replace shut off valves for toilets and sinks when installing new toilets and sinks? It might be totally run of the mill standard operating procedure...don't know, but I already have shut off valves so why would I need to replace them?

I can offer personal experience regarding your question about shut off valves. Working on a remodel, I initially didn't anticipate replacing shut off valves. I hadn't had any problems before, so it initially seemed unnecessary. What I actually discovered was that over time the ability to shut off had degraded such that they no longer functioned. In order to disconnect my sink and toilet, I had to shut off the water to the house. (At which point we discovered that the basement shut off also no longer shut the water off. And then started leaking.) They are very inexpensive and depending on the current installation, they may not be difficult to replace. I essentially cut through the copper pipe just behind the existing shut offs, sanded to remove burrs and then pushed on a new compression fitting shutoff (easy, just push it on!). It has a really nice 1/4 turn shut off rather than the standard type that you have to turn multiple times. This should mean these new ones will last longer and it's easier to turn the water off if necessary. Personally, I would recommend replacing the shutoff valves with new 1/4 turn shutoffs.

I'll give you a price comparison of work we just had done for our "tear down to the studs" bathroom. We are located in the midwest.

We hired all our people directly instead of going through a contractor because it would have cost more for him to do all the organizing, etc. Perhaps it would have been less headache, though!

Here's what we had done from our electrical/plumbing company.
Supplied and Installed (all new wiring from the box to this location):
3 GFI'
3 Recessed Lights
1 Weatherproof Recessed Light (for shower)
2 Dimmers
1 Switch

Installed (we supplied):
2 Sconces
1 Exhaust Fan

They also had to supply new copper and pvc in the basement and run it a total of about 14 feet because we were relocating everything in the bathroom (toilet, sink and shower), and the pipes for the toilet in the basement.

They also relocated an hvac vent.

Total: $1,669.98

**We did a mudbed pour, so our tile contractor did the framing, mudbed and kerdi for shower & tile installation.

judithn, the post above was a good illustration of someone doing it himself, or herself. It may or may not be relevant. What people might really like to know is what your plumbing supply lines are made of. Then, people can say a bit more about pricing and skill required.

The first responder may have asked a question that was too much detail, and maybe even unnecessary.
What people might really like to know is what your plumbing supply lines are made of.

Mongo and I both asked to know more about your location.

Knowing this, people might say a bit more about pricing and skill required. Some localities have strict requirements. Many of us know this in advance because we discuss plumbing requirements and Codes in forums (elsewhere) and we work in the business, where this is common knowledge. Even inside one single large urban areas, Codes vary a lot. People know this. Just say where you are.

I hope this helps you figure out what to look at, what to "know" and what to post.

You can safely forget that first question about cast and copper.
Unless you find out that that is what you have.

If you really like the guy you hired, consider this: he may be qualified (legally, that is) to install the shower pan. Perhaps he is being cautious and going to a Master plumber. He may be the best person to do it, and if you like him so far, the chances are good that he IS.

If you have the money, hire all the best professionals.
Nobody wants you to have less than the best.
Separate the jobs into those that will require the best, and those that anyone could do.
Mongo said it all. A lot depends.
He or I or others would need to know more --- otherwise it's a lot of typing, just to give vague answers !!!

Regarding the shutoff valves...I agree with pricklypearcactus that the quarter-turn ball valves are the best. Not a necessity, but they are better than the old valves where once they are used after years of inactivity, the packing can go bad and start to drip. Often times though, the packing nut can be snugged to eliminate the leak. But as far as good versus better, the ball valves are indeed best.

For the work you are describing, don't worry about "cast iron". Regardless of your waste pipes being CI or PVC or ABS or even copper, it shouldn't affect things based on the scope of work you described. Same with copper supply lines. It's "standard", so to speak, so no worries.

This means that, as far as plumbing goes, the plumber will only have to:

1) install a new trim kit for the shower handle (we are keeping the shower head) pretty simple and straightforward

2) install a new trim kit for the bathtub filler (we are keeping the current location and current valves) Again, simple and straightforward

3) install new faucets in roughly the same location, sinks, and attach drains. Installing new cartridges into old trim can be tricky, it depends on compatibility, etc. But installing brand new complete assemblies? Pretty simple and straightforward, same for the drain assemblies.

4) install a new toilet. again, pretty simple

If the plumber is installing a manufacturered shower pan, and it's a fiberglass/acrylic/synthetic/cast iron pan, then it's very straightforward.

I hate estimating like this, but everything you list really seems like a single day's labor for a plumber. If the shower pan was something he had to make from deck mud and CPE membrane, etc, then I'd say two or maybe even three days if the pan was complex and heavy seaming was involved.

Again, have a frank discussion with your contractor. Explain your financial situation and ask how much the changes you are willing to make will decrease the labor cost. Labor-wise, for example, it's almost easier to demo the old and replace with new. That's in regard to your faucets. I know I can yank a faucet and drain and replace them with a new faucet and drain in "X" hours. However, pulling just the valves/cartridges out of an older faucet and trying to replace them with newer ones? Sometimes you just never know what kind of can of worms you're getting into when making piece-by-piece repairs instead of wholesale replacements.

Definitely talk to your contractor, be frank with him. You're not saying that "the price is too high can you please lower it." You're saying "the price is over my intended budget, how can I scale the scope of work back to bring the price within my reach."

Some estimates have a bit of labor slop built into them. Some are already done with a sharpened pencil. By saying that you're willing to scale back the scope of work you should get a labor reduction for the change in work plus they might sharpen the pencil a bit with a more accurate estimate for labor.

This is a great *crash* course in plumbing basics.

Sorry I didn't give my location -- I was so focussed on pipes and such -- but I'm in a suburb north of Philadelphia, PA. It's Bucks County, for those of you who know the area.

I don't think there are particularly tough codes here. When I called my permits department they said they only needed a permit for plumbing if we are moving anything, which we're not. They do need a permit for the window we are enlarging and the wall we are pulling down though. I think they worry about that because it's messing with the framing/structure of the house.

Oh, so I went into the bathroom and got down on my hands and knees to see about the supply lines. They are made of copper. There is a small football shaped silver knob with a hatched edge that you can turn. This is the shut off knob, right? There is some bright green corrosion built up on the lines so I can see how having fresh ones would be smart and make operating them easier, if we need to operate them.

Oh, regarding reusing old valves and just putting on trim kits...are you saying that I'm better off yanking all that old stuff out? I thought reusing the old ones would save me $$ for labor and I wouldn't have to buy the shower valve or the tub filler valve.

One again I am in awe of all you knowledgable and generous people. Thank you so much!

Oh, to clarify, we are only putting new trim kits over the existing valves for the shower control and for the roman tub filler. We are definitely getting new valves/cartridges for the lavatory faucets because the existing faucets are centerset and you can't reuse those valves because it's all attached to the faucet. Plus I want to switch to widespread for ease of cleaning.

ok, you have copper. It's easy to solder, and millions have done it. A couple generations ago this was not the case. Technology today makes it easier than ever. The fittings, the solder, the flame -- everything has improved and been made very DIY friendly. YOu can even connect copper today without any flame; there are many ways.
I won't be the one to spell out for you which tasks are to be done by whom, but I will encourage you to deal with your contractor, to split the work into segments, that might each cost you less, because he can hire less well-paid tradespeople for some, or do more of the segments himself, or even, if you wish to consider this, to let you be the hiring person, so he won't be in this equation here except as an advisor. On the other hand, you might agree to pay the highest rates in order to have a guarantee that there will be no delays.

There's no way I'd reuse the valves inside the walls on your shower or your tub. If you're redoing it, redo it right, and replace them. It would be Murphey's Law that as soon as you close the walls up you develop a problem with the valves and have to replace them anyway and have to rip out the tile to do it. The new anti scald technology is required if you redo the shower anyway. And, it's a must to replace the shutoffs as well. This isn't exactly a case of "while you're at it's", but yes, you'll never have a better opportunity to fix/upgrade than you do now, and it won't really be that much more $$ to do so.

judithn, you might get a kick out of this.
How to Seal a Lead Joint in Cast Iron Drain Pipes
http://www.terrylove.com/lead_joint.htm

It's also not the way your shower drain will be connected. Read, enjoy and then forget about it. (It's more than you'll ever want to know.)

Sounds like you are renovating the entire bathroom.

You have a $2,550.00 Plumbing Allowance and the scope of work for your bathroom renovation is new tile, new fixtures, new trims, new vanity etc. I'm guessing that the bathroom may be 15-20 years old if you have noticed green corrosion on some of the fittings.

Many old lines where never insulated and often these sweated copper joints where not wiped after being soldered. The combination of condensation and remaining flux can cause this to happen - it's possible your copper lines are in contact with another form of metal as well, perhaps a strap tie or tie wire. Local water conditions and pipe decay can build up in old lines and we rarely work off old product.

If you wish to have the same water pressure into your fixtures 1/2" copper needs to be re sweated or better yet replaced. We like to switch to new 3/4" pex lines into the shower and branch off these lines in 1/2" pex to the basin and toilet. We isolate the new 3/4" home runs with 1/4 ball valves so we can pressure test the new plumbing lines prior to framing inspections. We find 3/4" pex gives us great supply rate and compares much closer to the original 1/2" copper lines.

Any time you work off old lines you are bound to get debris into the new work. It is important to flush these lines prior to installing the mixing values and other plumbing fixtures. Debris caught in toilets can create strange noises and that caught in spray heads greatly decreases water pressure. Read the install manual with your new tub filler and it will ask for the cartridge to be pulled and the valve flushed.

I believe it's a mistake to invest in a bathroom renovation without upgrading all these old water lines. Better to have it all tested and new and ready for another 15-25+ years of service. If your flipping the property these cost may seem crazy - if it's your home and a future repair involves redoing the floor and walls you can look at it as insurance.

Flood your drain and vent lines with water or air. Do the same with the water lines. Wrap your pipes and get ready for the good stuff because the funniest part of the renovation is around the corner.

You will never be sorry asking your contractor to tell you what the costs include. If your getting everything above and all the finishing the price looks reasonable I have paid more for similar projects but if your getting a few 'Shark Bites'* and all the old work stays it sounds a little high. Not having seen your project first hand - if you have found your builder to be fair and reasonable there should be no reason to think he is overcharging this one sub trade. Often I include a day of my wages in the plumber allowance to allow for my time planning routing and helping with the rough in.

I like to see the valves level, the tub's filled and everything checked. Laying out the fixtures exactly takes time and these fees can be included in this number.

*Shark Bites are code approved pipe connectors for switching from one pipe to another of different type. They can be used with no tools and speed up the process 5 fold. They are expensive and very handy it tight spots.

The real wild card in the plumbing bid is moving the sinks.

The plumbing codes are extremely specific in regards to the length of the fixture drain line from the trap weir to the vent. I have seen instances where moving a sink as little as one inch required totally revising the venting layout.

One can move the sink farther from the vent, while shortening or not lengthening the distance between the P trap weir to the vent. Doing this gives you the advantage of locating the P-trap somewhere other than directly underneath the sink drain. Under the sink drain it's "in the way", while putting it somewhere else it can be out of the way. P traps under drains are commonly seen, but are not put there because of any documented requirement.

Just wanted to let y'all know I asked my contractor if a plumber was needed and he said "we do it all," meaning, I think, that whomever is doing this work is one of his general construction guys who is already doing the framing and tiling. I assumed his est. was the actual plumber's fee plus a percentage for himself, but it doesn't appear to be the case. Obviously, the big thing here is the shower pan. To a lesser degree, the faucets. And to an even lesser degree the shower and the tub filler. So..more food for thought. I have another contractor and a plumber coming over to look at the job and bid. I'll update everyone once I have more info.

If it seems like too much, tell the plumber you want to pay by the hour; when the final bill comes in, compare to the original quote and let us know if you should have taken the bid, or if you did better on T&M. The plumber I use , $2500 would pay for 2.5 days labor for a 2-man crew.
Casey

Judith -
Where is this job being done? How old is the house? How old is the plumbing? What are the pipes in the walls made of? Without knowing this, it's impossible to know whether it's a reasonable bid or not.

I have had - seriously - an instance of a tenant attempting a faucet repair that ended with replumbing the entire house.

Lazygardens, the house is in a suburb outside of Philadelphia. It is only 12 years old so that's the age of the plumbing. It was built by a big builder in a development.

>Do we need new pipe and water supply lines since all the plumbing is basically in place?

Veteran remodeler says:

It depends!

If the copper's less than 20 years old and will be replaced within 20 years and you aren't on corrosive water, then they likely don't need changing.

But if you're in an area that develops pinhole leaks or the pipes are quite old and won't be touched again for many more years.... I'd change it out. Just to be sure.

Now, if they ALREADY have pinhole leaks, and worse.... ;-)

If you're not having problems, with a 12 yr old house I'd say leave everything you can.