Don't know what problems the original poster has had, but the company I work for has used GM products for their fleet for most of the 25 years I've worked there. They get abused terribly, like 1/2 ton 2 wheel drive pu's routinely driven across plowed fields, seldom serviced...that kind of thing. From time to time they purchase another brand to see how they hold up. Under the conditions they are used, or should I say abused, there have been none better. Granted, these are base stripped down models. No ac, global positioning, satalite radio, leather arse warming seats, ect. That stuff probably wouldn't hold up. But as far as the engines, tranny's, differencials, suspensions...all the stuff required to get them from point a to point b, have been pretty much bullet proof. They did have problems with the early 700r4 tranny's that was corrected later. My company solved the problem at the time simply by unplugging the torque converter so it wouldn't go into overdrive. They didn't need that feature anyway.

The company I love to hate is VW. Had 3 of them. All junk. Yet, they have a solid fan base. To each his own.

andyf:
FWIW: The pontiac "Vega" was the Astre.

To Gary:

I bet what you unplugged was the lock-up clucth, not the torque convertor. Disabling the lockup keeps the torque convertor active all the time.

mangotoo, any person that has ever owned a vehicle, could take your post, remove the gm/gmc reference and insert, your choice dodge,honda ford, toyota, etc, etc, for me add dodge. hahaha anyone who spends that kind of money and gets a lemon has a right to be P.O.ed!

Mangotoo just what do you drive now that is so terrific and so much better then GM?Just what was so bad with your GM vehical that you have a Ax to grind?Why should any buyer beware just because you say GM is so bad without giving any reasons why there so terrible?

I was a Ford guy in the 70's the 80's.I got tired of taking then to the shop.I traded one Ford for a used 87 Chevy Cavalier and another Ford for a used 87 Pontiac 6000 and learned that repair shop hassles was not a normal thing because I was no longer going to them.I decided GM was reliable after all those Fords.I since have had 4 more Cavaliers his and hers 91 and 94 then 99 and presently 02.I also have decided I like my 05 Buick Century and my work car is a 94 Buick Regal.I have 3 GM cars now and like them all.Never had a problem with any GM vehicals I have owned since my switch.

I had many problem with the Fords mostly front suspension problems like ball joints and things you never here of just a bunch of odd things.Maybe Ford is better now then back then.But I will never know.Because I am GM satisfied I get good service from GM vehicals much better gas milage then any of the many Fords I owned.I get a fair trade in allowance at trade in time.I gave the Fords away.I have bought from two different GM dealers and both have treated me well in every way from the deal to the servive to the trade.

There local and I believe in supporting the local dealer that offers good service and treats me right.If I wanted a import brand I would have to drive 30 miles to a very populated area.Deal with a dealer who is not going to remember me when I come back in for the first service interval and know me by my first name.Without looking it up in a file from a vehical vin number.

Fellow motorist, keep in mind that this forum and the topic regarding my plight with GM is to arm you so that you don't become another statistic like me. YOU BET I WANT TO ESCALATE THIS because no matter what, if you ever decide to make such an investment like buying a GM you hopefully won't end up an unhappy customer. Furthermore, GM's Corporate troubles will either force'em out of business or re-invent themselves. GOOD LUCK and listen to sound advice. Hey! it's your money!

GM's problems are due to changing market conditions and commitments made to retiree's long since gone, dealerships (too many of them), and sales to fleet operations at huge discounts such as hertz, which in turn dump those vehicles on the used car market in a short time, driving down the value. Being such a huge company, it's difficult if not imposible for them to change directions when so many of those things already mentioned are set in concrete. Their problems have little if anything to do with the products they produce. So you got a bad one. That's a shame, it happens customers of all products all the time.

What's got you so worked up? Beleive me, I understand how that can happen. I worked in dealerships for a few years and saw how the manufacturer and the dealership can point fingers back and forth at each other while the customers car sits there not getting fixed, hoping they'll just go away.

I would feel more sympathetic towards GM if they had continued with the EV1 program, instead of abribrarily taking them off the road. Clearly, there was owner enthusiasm and loyalty with regard to these cars, and that implies that there is a significant market. Electric vehicles are not a universal solution. If you have to air condition the car in hot weather, or if you have to maintain interior heat in cold winter weather, the extra power required will reduce the range. Even so, there are places where these cars are a good fit.

Clearly they weren't a money maker, otherwise they'd still be making them. I doubt there's much of a market for a $35k compact car that you can't take out of town. If there was, you can bet the Japanese would be selling them. There is a place for the technology. The golf coarse.

If you want an electric car, there are companies that sell conversion kits. I'm sure you could purchase one already done if you looked. There was a company near me that was building them 20+ years ago. Thought about it myself, but the limited range thing killed that idea.

Here is a link that might be useful: electric cars

My understanding is that the GM EV1 electric car was leased, not purchased, by the customers living in California, who participated in the program. There were about 1100 cars involved, and I don't think that the program was ever intended to make a profit. From what I have read, there seems to have been both enthusiasm and loyalty among the customers who used these cars, and they were reluctant to let them go when the program ended. The monthly lease payment was $350.00, and as the cars aged, this figure may not have been sufficient to cover the costs of replacing major components like batteries and electric motors. I don't know how many potential customers had inquired about this type of car, and I don't know how large the market was. Wisconsin winters are cold, and a lot of energy would be gobbled up heating and defrosting the interior of an electric car. That would reduce the range, so the concept may not work out here.

No worries on my end of things. If I drive a vehicle, and I don't like the way the engine behaves, or if it seems to have a lot of cheesy plastic inside, or unpredictable handling, or if the manufacturer does not offer a good manual transmission, then I don't buy it, no matter what the nameplate. We just went through a search for a car, and could not find a GM that we liked.

Best car I had was a Ford. Worse car I had was a Ford. Had two great Pontiac's in the 70's and 80's. My ex-wife had three Pontiac's in the 90's that weren't so good. Main problem with them was that the AC's kept going out. Over and over. All three of them. I had a great 64 Dodge and 67 Plymouth. I've never owned anything but big 3. I think it's pretty much a crap shoot. Buy the car you like and hope it's a good one. It might be, and might not be. I still don't want to buy anything but big 3. I don't care where they are made. I'm probably not going to change at age 55. Maybe I will. Not even sure I would buy Chrysler product since they are owned by Daimler.

The industry is so global right now that it probably doesn't matter what make you buy. There's no longer such a large gap between best and worst, maybe with few exceptions. Just test drive as many as you can that have the features you desire, compare deals and pick the one that fits you best. Find a service center you can trust, don't use your car beyond it's intended purpose, take care of it and it should give you many years of good service.

Miss my Yugo.

Sniff.

So far, mantoogo, you have yet to utter word one about the specifics of your dislike of GM..At one time I did not care for GM either, so it has been a string of VW and Saab, even a Mercedes..

BeagleBuddy, you mentioned that our quality is better than that of the Europeans - this is nothing new - they too have their problems.
We and they must solve the problems in order to complete with the Asians.....
Has the first step been taken ??

I dont agree either.We bought a 2004 new escalade have not had one problem with it.........not one..

Just wait until your warranty runs out.

There is no shortage of GM suv's here in the atlanta burbs. The trucks and suv's are the most popular vehicles here despite their price tags and they still aren't made very well IMO. I have never owned a GM but have had Dodge and Ford and those are throw away cars. Once the warranty runs out, just take it to a recycling plant and you'll be lucky to walk away with a couple bucks in your pocket. I have since switched to toyota and what a world of difference. The problem is that it is very difficult to actually buy a toyota. The prices are ok but the dealers are busy taking advantage of people with poor credit and don't want to give anyone with good credit the time of day. Inventories are slim pickins and they do not make good work trucks. Don't get me wrong their trucks are the best in the world but they don't meet the specs of the other brands. It takes 120 days to special order and even then you are very limited. I much prefer the more realistic Flex fuel concept over Toyota and Honda's hybrid system. They don't make full size work vans either so Toyota, which I think are the best are doomed to the same market they have been since the day they washed ashore and that's the econobox buyers. They don't even have a mid sized sports coupe like the supra for high testosterone buyers. Just econoboxes and luxury suvs.

So what it comes down to is it's difficult not to buy an American car. They make it really easy and they have bigger selections and better marketing. Even though the product is not as well made and doesn't last as long. I noticed Nissan has become very accommodating at their retailers. Aside from the Z, the cars are rather homely designs and I sat in the Maxima and felt like I was in a flying saucer. A mechanic I know says problems have been on the rise with late model nissans.

Anyway, that's my $0.029

The prices are ok but the dealers are busy taking advantage of people with poor credit and don't want to give anyone with good credit the time of day. Inventories are slim pickins

"Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded." -- Yogi Berra

:-)

"...Just wait until your warranty runs out..."

Uh oh! My '00 Dakota has 125,000 miles on it and I have had very few problems and my '03 Expedition has 80,000 miles on it and I really don't have any major complaints there either. And the warranties ran out at 36,000 miles. Am I missing something?

"...Just econoboxes and luxury suvs..."

The Avalon is an "econobox"? The Camry is an "econobox"?

Heck! You're gonna see Camrys in NASCAR next year!

They sell fewer avalons than camry, carollas, celica, and the others but it doesn't matter. Camry and Avolon are an outstanding value. So when was the last time you saw a fleet of Police cruiser Avalons? What I meant was they have the same market. People buying cars that make more economic sense not because they have bigger engines, more space or are more luxurious. Those buyers get a Mercury Marauder or an Escalade or a Mustang. Or they buy a Ford Superdoody because they need an 8' box on a crewcab. Or they need to haul 12 passengers and can't do it in a $60k Landcruiser or Sequoia.

As for the throw away comment... Every time I tell people about the horrible luck I've had with American cars there is always someone who says "oh oh well.. my Taurus has lasted me until 200,000 miles and never been in the shop"
I guess you can say my luck with automobiles historically, isn't great. My theory on american cars being not as well made is supported by a lot of evidence and other owners who feel the same way. Why is it that the service manager at a dodge dealer will call a Neon a "throwaway car" but there's carollas on the road today that are 30 years old? If you say you've had an american car last you that long, I'll take your word for it but if I owned the same car my luck with surely be different. I try to be objective as possible. I am not in love with Toyota. I would rather by domestic but sorry not gonna happen. Fool me once...

Still no response from "mantoogo".
Now I expect none, he is simply unable to express himself - a problem I have as well.

GM can do the stupidest things, the 4-6-8 engine, the Diesel when they knew nothing about them, aluminum engines before thie time, air cooled engine after their time..
But, GM ,over the years can be very innovative(power steering, automatic transmissions, front drive, aluminum engine blocks,OHV V8 engines.
Some work fine, others do not...

GM needs help !

But they are ours, Ford and GM are all we have.
Not good !
The Japanese must be beaten in the competitive world - but now we must learn from them...

It's simple. All they have to do is make a car that lasts longer than 3 years and stop using cheap plastic which they are known for.

I remember once I was waiting for some repair in the dodge dealership and I was looking at how the Viper they had on the showroom floor was constructed with exposed screws and lots of plastic. I could have disassembled the entire car in about 20 minutes with nothing more than a swiss army knife.

oh and by "last longer than 3 years" I mean not having to go in once a month to replace another @$@(^!# O2 sensor!

Posted by mangotoo (My Page) on Thu, Mar 30, 06 at 10:36

Fellow motorist, keep in mind that this forum and the topic regarding my plight with GM is to arm you so that you don't become another statistic like me. YOU BET I WANT TO ESCALATE THIS because no matter what, if you ever decide to make such an investment like buying a GM you hopefully won't end up an unhappy customer. Furthermore, GM's Corporate troubles will either force'em out of business or re-invent themselves. GOOD LUCK and listen to sound advice. Hey! it's your money!

These are all empty words, mangotooo.
I have owned GM,Ford,Chrysler,VW,Saab,Honda,Mazda, even Mercedes.
They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Beaglebuddy is correct, the American cans are stronger, more reliable than the European ones....

And the Americans and Europeans still have a lot to learn.
Mangotoo, did you invest money in GM and then lose your shirt ?
Or were you cheated by a GM dealer ??
There are ways of handling these things..

Plastic on cars and teucks is here to stay. It's lighter, hence improves fuel economy, dissipates heat faster, is cheaper to manufacture, and is tougher than steel in many cases. Heck, they've been making valve covers out of plastic for decades. And even some companies are testing engine blocks made of plastic! And Saturn's claim to fame is the plastic body panels that resist dents.
And would you want a car that has it's brake rotors made out of CERAMIC? All the exotics have them.
Even that soft feeling steering wheel on today's cars is plastic.
So plastic isn't the same thing that it was even a few years ago.

So plastic isn't the same thing that it was even a few years ago.

Key components of the Corvette suspension system are fiber-reinforced plastic. At the price of a Corvette, they could have used pretty much anything that worked. Plastic does.

Sad to say I am in agreement. I have driven GMs since what, 1971 or so, but the Impala I have now will be the last of GM. I've had a series of the 60degree v-6 engines, ALL of which were plagued by the intake manifold gasket fiasco. The Impala has been the most unreliable of the bunch, some highlights:
-block heater failed
-hi-beam switch had to be replaced
-tranny cooler lines had to be replaced, and then the replacements failed yet again.
-part of the wiring harness in one of the rear doors failed
The worksheets for this vehicle are the longest of any I've had.
This was purchased new and maintained by the selling dealer, fortunately most covered under warranty. Lately the passenger side upper air vent will randomly elect to put only hot air out, regardless of setting.
None of this indicates any trend towards "improving quality".
The part that really annoys me the most is that I like the vehicles. It's too bad that accountants are left in charge to nickel & dime the concept to save $20 per unit produced.
I'd pay that additional cost if the quality went into the car in the first place.

The part that really annoys me the most is that I like the vehicles. It's too bad that accountants are left in charge to nickel & dime the concept to save $20 per unit produced.
I'd pay that additional cost if the quality went into the car in the first place.
*************

That's OK. GM had to add about $1,500 to the price of that car for the retirement costs of GM workers. If they didn't have that albatross they probably would have spent that $20.

There's plastic then there's plastic from the GM/Fisher Price parts bin.

To mangotoo:
You have been asked numerous times to explain what your problem is with GM and you still havn't said a word about it. My guess is that you're either a TROLL or just a bored FORD or MOPAR executive with WAY to much time on your hands. Either way, YOU are the only one that seems to have the problem. I hope you Enjoy wallowing in your frustration and anger....c-ya

I do not think he drives a Ford or Mopar.Probably an import brand.Maybe he lost his job down at his local GM dealer.After being there porter for the 90 day probation period.Then they let him go because he was not cut out for washing cars.Probably wanted to get even with his boss.So he thought he would Bash GM.

All vehicles are a personal preference- I've had fords, I've had Chrysler products and I've had GM, Gm is my all time favorite, they have lasted well, with fewer repairs, just gave my 93 Pontiac Bonneville (with 164K miles) to the 17 year old Grand-daughter after purchasing a 06 Pontiac torrent . Most cars will last a long time (with exceptions)IF taken care of. I work in the auto repair business, you would not believe the people who show up with problems that were preventable with SOME maintaince, if you have invested big $$ in a vehicle - why the heck don't you take care of it?would be a very good question to ask .

Posted by suzyqute (My Page) on Mon, Aug 28, 06 at 16:06

All vehicles are a personal preference- I've had fords, I've had Chrysler products and I've had GM, Gm is my all time favorite, they have lasted well, with fewer repairs, just gave my 93 Pontiac Bonneville (with 164K miles) to the 17 year old Grand-daughter after purchasing a 06 Pontiac torrent . Most cars will last a long time (with exceptions)IF taken care of. I work in the auto repair business, you would not believe the people who show up with problems that were preventable with SOME maintaince, if you have invested big $$ in a vehicle - why the heck don't you take care of it?would be a very good question to ask .

No truer words.I just finished Re-newing the Honda ground cable (its a wonder it started and ran) and repairing ,"rebuilding" the Saab electrical leads to the cooling fan resistor..
Excessive heat and corrosion and dirt - these we fight on a daily basis...

No, not Snaab, no not Honda, no not Subaru, no not nissan.
There is only one brand that has effectively removed the need for excessive PM's and that brand is Toyota. You can't possibly understand unless you own one beyond 36,000 miles and then the penny will finally drop. I'm not going to rag on your favorite domestic brand but the fact is no one has topped toyota in quality. OTher aspects yes, but not quality.

Never had any of the imports and can't really say that I'm fond of any one manufacturer over another but sure can't complain about the service I've got out of the Ford's I've had. Have a '72 pick-up with over 400,000 miles on it and just sold a '92 Thunderbird with 225,000+ on it. It still runs great but the years of hauling dogs to dog shows in it had taken a toll on the inside of it. Replaced it with a '95 T-bird as a "dogmobile" Also have a '87 Dakota that hasn't been a great deal of trouble although it does need a little work right now. Newest year model here is a 2005 F-150 and a 2005 Grand Marquis, so far so good with each of them.

Lisa

Excessive PM ??

Define this one !

But it is ever so true that people who do take proper care of things end up having them last a long time..
I admit that I am impressed with Toyota quality - but I believe that we can do the same and even better ! The cooperation of the dealers, the government , the workers, and the CEOs are vital.
Our American companies are receiving far too little of this , in all respects !!

Dobesrule, that's great those cars lasted that long. Are you saying they were never in for repairs? Because that's what I'm talking about. I have a zero tolerance policy for check engine lights.

Right now the Dakota has 154,000 miles on it and needs brakes. The '72 pick up has had the engine replaced once. The'92 Thunderbird had the transmission replaced and blew the head gaskets once. Those were the major problems with them. They haven't been completely trouble free but for all the miles that have been put on them I don't think they've been a huge amount of trouble either. Now my mother's Mustang was a whole different story. That thing had been in the shop seventeen times by the time it was eighteen months old.

Lisa

This could be interesting.... GM has just announced that they are going to warrantee their new vehicles for 5 years or 100,000 miles. A 100,000 mile warrantee on the drivetrain might just be enough to make me take a good look at the Silverado as I will put that much mileage on the truck in 5 years.

Dobes... come on, dude. Having the engine replaced is like replacing 90% of what makes the truck run. Sorry but that and your T-bird's tranny troubles don't count. I have some family members who had a Buick with 100k+ miles with mechanical problems and practically every button and object in the interior was held into place with scotch tape. The mere fact that it still runs does not make it a quality vehicle. That's why I keep saying... It's possible to make a car that does not break. Period.

The warranty trick worked for Hyundai, maybe it will get people into the GM showrooms. Just because the service is free doesn't mean you won't have problems.

My ex had a Chrysler Lebaron back in the mid-80s, when they offered their famous "7/70" warranty. Gad save us from that kind of help. Clueless service for a pile of rubble. Who cared if it was "free"?

"...It's possible to make a car that does not break. Period..."

Really? Even LEXUS owners have problems with their cars! And my old boss bought a new S class Mercedes. (S500) And it was eventually declared a "LEMON" and was replaced.
Automobiles are still assembled by humans. And those huumans can have bad days and miss something on the line. It happens.
And yes, not too long ago all American automakers built crap. But the quality has improved a great deal. So a Buick that's over 10 years old is not even in the same league as a Buick that's 2 years old as far as engineering goes. As a matter of fact, in 1999 we rented a brand new Park Avenue while on vacation. My wife called it a piece of garbage compared to our '88 Volvo. The power seat controls came off in her hand! Yeah, garbage! But I'll guarantee that the Lucerne is light years ahead of that Park Ave! In both quality and engineering.

Let's get something straight. Mercedes are by no means problem-free cars. Maybe they used to a hundred years ago but not today. I'd rather have a Datsun.
Ah Datsun.... the memories.

Everybody has their own definition of trouble free. To me one engine in 34 years is pretty trouble free. Especially when you consider that the engine cost me less than a thousand bucks, it was replaced in the mid-late eighties, and some elbow grease to replace it and a new truck would set me back thirty grand.

One explanation could be that vehicles were probably a lot more reliable before all the computer and sensors they put in. I do see a lot of old chevy p/u's still on the road. It sounds like you're experienced with auto mechanics, would you agree with this?

I remember the first Supra (aka "celica supra") that came out was one of the first cars to have the digital displays and so forth and this car was plagued by problems with the electronics.

For sure all the garbage that has been mandated into our vehicles has caused them to be much less reliable than before.Of course it's all"For our own good".Yeah Right!

For sure all the garbage that has been mandated into our vehicles has caused them to be much less reliable than before.Of course it's all"For our own good".Yeah Right!

I don't know too many people who want to go back to the days when L.A.'s air was brown. Nor do I see people rushing to buy cars without remote locking systems or power windows or fuel injection or fancy stereo systems. I'll agree that most of us suffered through the first implementations of emissions controls, and that the more moving parts, the more that can go wrong. But today's cars are much more complex because most buyers want them that way.

Further to my previous post about the supposed reliability being introduced into the GM lineup, my 03 Impala now has acquired from the "upper intermediate shaft" issue detailed here:
hxxp://www.autosite.com/content/research/forums/index.cfm/action/Posts/fid/2983
(Replace the xx of course)
This is the latest vehicle of my many GMs, and obviously the quality has deteriorated exponentially.
Maybe all the money just went into the ad campaign instead. I'm not paying for GM ad copy any more.

I have an acquaintance who purchased a Chevrolet Impala who pretty happy with it! He has had it for now two years and no major problems. That pretty good for a domestic car to last that long without any major problems!

We own two Chevies and a Saturn. All three are ancient, the oldest is a '92 and the newest is an '02. They are all (knock on wood) going strong and quite reliable.