If your explorer was only getting 10 mpg, it had issues that needed addressed. Driving down the hiway it should have gotten double that.

... "I attribute it to jealousy" ...

Snookums, I totally agree with your observation! LOL!

Could a person buy a Ford Escape Hybrid and use the carpool lanes, too? Is it any hybrid that can use them, or just certain ones?

Whats a Car pool lane?

cowboyind - I don't know about other states, but here in CA, it has to be a partial emissions or zero emissions vehicle that gets 45 mpg (EPA ratings) or above. Right now, the only hybrids that fall into that category are the Prius and the Civic Hybrid. I'm sure though that as time passes, there will be more that fall into that category. For us, the access to the carpool lane is half of the appeal. You can't get that with a Corolla.

Gary - I have an Explorer as well (until we bought the Prius, we had 2 - a 2004 and a 2005 (mine is the 2005, we traded in the 2004). EPA ratings were only 13 I think, real life is only about 10 on average. This was the same on both of our Explorers - nothing wrong with either of them. They are gas guzzlers - there is absolutely no denying that.

Luckily, I'm a stay-at-home mom, and only drive around town very minimally. My next car will still be an SUV as I need the room with the 3rd row seat, but it will most definitely be a hybrid, such as the Highlander. After just a week of owning the Prius, it makes absolutely no sense why I wouldn't buy a hybrid for every car in the future. Regular vehicles just seem so...so...primitive to me now! Why would you use all that gas when you don't have to? But for now, since I don't drive very much, my Explorer is fine. For dh, we've only had the Prius for 10 days, and it already has 1100 miles on it. He's filled it up once, putting in 9 gallons. It'll need gas tomorrow. WELL worth it.

That's strange. The Explorers now say 15-20 mpg. 15 should be in town. We looked at them in '98 before getting a Durango and that sounds like what they said they'd get then. Our Durango is bigger, has a V-8 and still gets 17, not that that's anything to brag about either. If you were only getting 10 in something that small, I'd think something's wrong with it or you're using it in some atypical fashion. My 1-ton work truck with a big block gas v-8 gets 10 or better.

Snookums said..."I have an Explorer as well (until we bought the Prius, we had 2 - a 2004 and a 2005 (mine is the 2005, we traded in the 2004). EPA ratings were only 13 I think, real life is only about 10 on average"

I have a 2002 Explorer that I use to tow the trailer for our band. My normal use mileage is 20mpg, (combined mileage in town and on rural roads) plus when towing our 5000lb, 7x6x10 band trailer on highways we still get 13mpg. For tax purposes, we log every mile, and every expense so we know to the penny exactly what we spend and can check mileage easily. Being self employed, and having three jobs, we have to carefully notate each use of the vehicle between which job it's being used for, or if it happens to be the occasional personal use.

As far as getting to use the "car pool" lane. I have no need to use one on a regular basis. In fact I think I had my Explorer on it one time, when they lift the restriction for it coming from a ball game in the city.

Cowboyind is correct in his raisining the question of whether the purchase of a hybrid for the exclusive benefit of money saved is a sound idea or not. Granted there are some benefits, but isn't it strange how they have to be artificially contrived? Things such as the initial tax break, and the use of the high occupancy vehicle lanes in order to subsidize the decision to purchase one of these. The biggest issue with one of these IMO is the one that has yet to be addressed on a regular basis. What about when time catches up withg these things and they start breaking? Will the cost of battery replacement, and other drivetrain repairs ultimately have an impact on the resale value since the resale will most commonly occur after the warranty and life expectancy of the electrical system? Will the benefit of using the HOV lanes really be one if the population of these cars actually does increase to be a significant portion of the market? Or will these simply be an expensive fad sort of like the Mazda rotory engine?

BTW Jealous? You've got to be kidding. No-one makes, or will make a hybrid that will fit my needs. Purchasing a car such as a 2004, and then a 2005 on top of it, and trading the 2004 for a Prius is not an indication of someone making sound financial decisions based on "saving money". Besides, why can't you carpool with a Corolla? Isn't that why those HOV lanes were built, so that more people rode in fewer cars resulting in significant savings in both fuel, time, and vehicle expenses?

I really have to sit back and laugh at the lack of logic being used to praise the hybrids here. If it was really all about saving money, or gas, your DH should be buying a 250cc 4-stroke bike and getting 80+mpg having spent a whopping 2K on the bike.

Here's my logic in buying a Prius. My old car had 185000 miles on it and was starting to develop rust problems around the windshield and wheelwells. It was also starting to use oil. Now, I could have had the rust repaired and the engine worked on, but the car was 15 years old, so I really felt I was only prolonging the inevitable and buy a new car. I needed/wanted a car that would hold a 95 pound dog, and seat 4 adults comfortably (5 for a short distance, had side airbags, anti-skid (or whatever the manufacturer was calling it), good gas milage since I drive about 30 highway miles each way to work, had enough acceleration to get me safely on the highway and out of trouble, good milagea navigation syster (husband's requirement) and was comfortable for me at 5'2" tall and husband at 6' to drive. We are huge fans of Japanese cars because we have had outstanding experiences with all of them we owned. We looked at a very large range of cars from Camry's to Acura RL (I would love to have one of those, but just can't justify $50,000 for a car - that's more than the first house we bought). We did not look at Corollas and other 4 cylinder cars because they were too small to meet our needs.

The Prius came the closest to meeting all of our needs. We did hours and hours of research because we were not sure about the technology in the car and discovered that the 2003 and earlier Prii were not significantly more maintenance prone than our other choices. There is a taxi driver in Vancouver, BC that uses one as a taxi and had something like 300,000 miles on it with no more than the normal maintenance.

I think that if someone did their comparison of a Prius and a mid-size (as per the manufacturers) car with similar options (all the airbags, keyless start and entry, cd player, etc), the results may be different. Also, in my area at least, the 2004 Prii have not depreciated as fast as the Corollas and other cars have.

Last, I don't care what anyone says, when gas was $3.00 a gallon, I got a warm fuzzy feeling when I filled up my Prius for $24 knowing that I was going to be able to drive over 400 miles on that $24.

Does anyone buy a car strictly for its gas mileage??????? I

**Does anyone buy a car strictly for its gas mileage?**

If I were to purchase a gas/electric hybrid, gas mileage WOULD be the only reason, and it would have to save me a substantial amount of money from the start for the reasons JohnG mentioned. Lots of new technology = lots of potential problems down the road that few are going to able to repair. That is, unless the technology becomes a screaming success and they make all cars that way. I don't think it will.

IMO, cars in the near future will run on hydrogen. No special technology required as far as the vehicle itself goes. No need for gasoline, no emissions, and the old 'push rod type engine' as some call it, will run just fine on it. We'll see.

I think fear of the unknown is a huge contributor with the anti-hybrid audience. When I bought my Prius, people at work were asking me all sorts of questions about the car. One person thought we had to plug these cars in every night to get their batteries rechared. Many still think that hybrids need more maintenance than a regular car. They also thought I'd have to take in the car for regular battery changes (the main battery). It's actually the opposite of a regular car, the Prius needs very little maintenance.

And some of the people told me they would buy a Prius today, if Toyota offered different body styles of the Prius.

FYI, I am not anti-hybrid. Aside from the limited body styles, they just don't pencil out at this time to me.

According to this article, Toyota Priuses are now lasting only HOURS on lots, not days. Obviously for those of you who already have them, this is irrelevant, but for those who are getting ready to panic buy one of these cars, this is something to consider.

The author of this article says gas would have to go to $9.20 a gallon for a hybrid to be a good buy.

I really don't think anyone who's writing these articles is "anti-hybrid." Why should they be? I know I'm not against hybrids. I just think that consumers are setting themselves up for a great opportunity to get taken to the cleaners if they drive onto a car lot in an SUV right now and beg for a hybrid. They'll pay top dollar for it, get practically nothing for their trade, and wind up with a vehicle that isn't even a good deal for most people -- in strictly financial terms.

Here is a link that might be useful: CNN/Money Hybrid Article

Hours on the lot? Where??? The Toyota dealerships around here do not have any Priuses on their lots. There are waiting lists that people have to sign, AND, they have to put down a deposit $$$. The wait can be months.

btw, I got a good trade-in for my SUV. I walked in with a printout from Kelley Blue Book. It's the uninformed that get taken to the cleaners.

**It's the uninformed that get taken to the cleaners.**

More like it's the uninformed that think they got a good trade in for any vehicle under any circumstances at any car lot. I've known a few car dealers over the years. They pretty much have told me every 3rd car they get in trade is "free". The only way to know what you get for a car is to sell it outright. I got $3600 for a '77 LTD worth probably $600, that I traded in for the new '93 Ford Tempo. Such a deal! I gave it to them and I knew at the time I did. I just didn't want to fool with it. Play the blue book/trade-in/msrp/invoice game with a car dealer and you won't know if you're on foot or horse back.

If people are putting their names on waiting lists for a car that isn't for very many people a wise financial decision to purchase, that in itself is evidence that they're uninformed. The fact that the same uninformed people would take a lousy deal on a trade-in is not surprising.

That's why I'm glad that articles such as the CNN/Money one I provided the link for are helping to dispel the myth that hybrids are a good deal for most people.

"BTW Jealous? You've got to be kidding. No-one makes, or will make a hybrid that will fit my needs."

Just curious...why post on this thread then?

??????????????

For the drive that my dh has now, the hybrid is a sound financial decision for us. If he didn't have this drive, it wouldn't be.

For us, the carpool lane is a factor. He cannot carpool in a Corolla without another person to drive with that also takes the same route he does. He doesn't have that luxury. Fwiw, the original purpose of carpool lanes was not just to lessen traffic by encouraging 2 or more people in a car, but also to lessen emissions by lessening the cars on the road. HENCE why hybrids and other zero or partial emissions vehicles are allowed access to them. This is probably the only thing that the governator has enacted that I 100% support (even before we ever considered getting a hybrid).

I'm sure since you're such an Explorer expert that you know that in 2003 they totally changed the body style to a larger model. Our previous Explorer was a 2000 and was much smaller than today's version. I'm sure that can affect the gas mileage. My driving is pretty much around town with the AC on. My controls give me an average of 10. My dh's was about the same - slightly higher (about 12) because he does mostly freeway driving.

Also, I'm sure that if you've kept up on all of this hybrid press lately, you'd know that EPA ratings - meaning, the MPG the car advertises - is nowhere near the real MPG that you're going to get, which is much less. Read this month's consumer reports - it has a great article on this phenomena. It is true not just in hybrids but in all cars.

Cheers!

Vehicle fuel economy is very driver-dependent. Some drivers do not operate or maintain their vehicle in a way that leads to good fuel economy, and would rather blame the problem on EPA estimates they believe to be too high than to do something about the real problem.

Yes, I would disagree with the statement that the EPA ratings are "nowhere near" what the car will really get. Most of the time I've found them to be fairly accurate, although I realize that some people do drive in conditions that are not well represented in the EPA tests, and those people would get mileage different from what the tests come up with.

However, Consumer Reports did state that hybrids were the worst of the lot in not achieving their stated EPA ratings. In their words:

"Hybrids, whose selling point is fuel thriftiness, had some of the biggest disparities, with fuel economy averaging 19 mpg below the EPA city rating."

-Consumer Reports, October 2005

Here is a link that might be useful: Consumer Reports Gas Mileage Article

Snook,,, The Explorer body style changed in 2002, my 2002 is the same body as 2003, and up. (independent rear suspension, SOHC 4.0l etc....)

As far as posting on this thread, I'll go out on a limb and say I am the ONLY person involved in this thread that has the tools, equipment, and training to service one of them PROFESSIONALLY.

HOV lanes were designated for use by people carpooling, more than a decade before the hybrids were even a glimmer in someones eye. It took a change in the law to allow a zero emissions or partial zero emission vehicle to have access to the HOV lane. HOV stands for high occupancy vehicle, which means at least in this area two or more people. By design, the intent is to reduce the number of vehicles, and the overall miles driven, which reduce pollution. FWIW an electric car, a pure electic car, Zero Emissions does not in itself reduce emissions especially if the power plant that charges the car burns coal or gas to produce the electricity! The best it can do is have the pollution that should be credited to it simply created elsewhere...

Ok Jo....see you at the gas station! Or maybe not! Maybe I'll see you in the carpool lane. Or, maybe not.

I'm sure you're aware that hybrids charge themselves. I don't think that 100% electric vehicles are even in production anymore. I could be wrong, but all of the access pass cars I'm seeing in the carpool lane are hybrids. They don't need a pollution-producing plant to charge themselves. And, it gets my dh to work a heck of a lot faster.

Have a nice day.

First of all, I like the idea of a hybrid, because it addresses almost everything I like and am interested in. Engines, motors, energy, electricity. It's all there. I'd own one tomorrow if it would save me any money. I especially like the Ford Escape Hybrid because it looks like something I'd actually buy. I'm tempted to buy one even though it wouldn't save me money just because the idea of it is cool, but I'm not quite to that point yet.

Snookums, hybrids do have a pollution producing plant. It's the gas engine that powers it. Hybrids are cleaner than straight gas engine cars only to the extent that they burn less fuel. All of this "zero emission" stuff is nonsense that's put out to sell these vehicles. Zero emissions is achieved by walking, bicycling, or riding a horse. You don't have zero emissions when you are using fossil fuels to propel a 3,000 pound vehicle down a road at 60 mph. You have high emissions -- albeit maybe slightly less than those of some other fossil fuel powered vehicle, especially one that's bigger and heavier.

The fuel savings and emissions reductions of a hybrid arise from the fact that standard gasoline engine cars spend a lot of time idling and running at low engine speeds where they do not operate very efficiently. In fact, the gasoline engine in general is woefully inefficient, only changing about 20 to 30 percent of the heat value of the fuel it burns into useful energy. Then tack on fuel wastage from idling in traffic, stoplights, etc., and you can see that the typical car wastes probably 80 to 85 percent of the fuel it burns. Hybrids still have the same old inefficient gasoline engine, but they do help deal with this "extra" inefficiency that's caused by the idling and low speed operation.

Wow...I wasn't sure how our hybrid worked. Thanks for the info on this new-fangled thing.

(Where is the roll eyes icon?)

Fact:

Hybrids are not zero-emissions vehicles. I never said they were. They are partial emissions or near-zero emissions vehicles. That is what the state of California and Toyota labels them as as well. The Prius is an ATPZEV - I forgot what exactly that stands for but it's for partial emissions.

Fact:

Even though the Hybrid still uses some resources and produces some emissions, it is is still the best on the road in that category. Aside from 100% electric (which I fully understand the hybrid is not, thank you), there is NO CAR on the road that gets better gas mileage and produces less emissions than the Prius. Even the Civic is second to it.

Therefore, it meets the original purpose of the carpool lanes - to reduce pollutants in the air. A bonus to us is that dh gets to work a lot faster.

It's just so odd to me that anyone would be "anti" Prius. For God's sakes, if you don't want one, don't buy one, and move on with your life!

Snookums said...."It's just so odd to me that anyone would be "anti" Prius. For God's sakes, if you don't want one, don't buy one, and move on with your life! "

It's not about being for or against a Prius or any other hybrid. I applaud all of the increases in technology that come along. This is about being truthfull, and accurate and not falling into the hype trap. Lets face it, the more complicated the technology gets, the more secure my own future will be as a technician! But when claims are made that the cars simply as a group are not able to live up to, there has to be a voice that pulls the subject back to the center where it belongs.

Hybrids as it stands right now are still a novelty, but granted they are improving. I say lets give it at least ten years and then look at where they are at as a group. That means not only what the new ones in ten years will be like, but what are the ones out there today going to be like when they are ten years old. Remember I make my living fixing cars everyday, and the real question about the quality of a car does not get answered until we see how it stands up over a normal vehicle lifespan. (10 to 20 years) Until that aspect of the question is answered the jury is out.
Will the upkeep of a ten to fifteen year old hybrid be economically feasable to the owner of it at that time?

2 questions, one for John and one for everyone else

John, are you saying that you are trained to service a Prius? If so, you should know that the Prius recharges its batteries from the energy normally wasted in braking. The emissions from generating electricity do not come into play in the Prius equation. If the Prius was a totally electric car, then you have a valid point.

For everyone else, I'm curious about one thing. If you who don't trust the technology in the Prius, how long did it take you to buy a car with automatic transmission or do you still drive a manual? How about power steering and power brakes? It may be that you aren't old enough to remember these advances in technology.

A small portion of the power required to charge the batteries comes from regenerative braking. That helps conserve power, but if you need to slow down quicker normal brakes take over and that energy is dissipated as heat from the brakes just like any other car. The primary way that the battery is charged in a Prius or any other hybrid is by burning gasoline. So how can you say that the emissions from generating that electricity dont come into play? Thats just short sighted, and is the major flaw in the logic that tries to support electric cars in general, be they hybrids or fully electric.

As far as trusting the technology goes, do you remember the early automatic transmissions? Do you remember power steering systems that used a control valve on the drag link? It may be that you take for granted that it took decades to make the systems we see today be as trouble free as they are. (Thats not suggesting these systems don't have problems, but compared to when they were new they really don't anymore)

John, you are right on the engine charging the battery. I know that and have no idea where my previous post came from.

From reading your posts, you have done your homework on the Prius. You didn't answer my question whether or not you had any training on the Prius system.

We will have to see if your predictions of the problems wiht the hybrid system are accurate.

There really is not that much totally new or untested technology in a hybrid. The capabilities and limitations of the technology put into those cars are pretty well known. The problem will most likely be the batteries. All rechargeable batteries sooner or later lose capacity and then die altogether. Replacing a whole pack of NiMH batteries will be costly. I know that some of the manufacturers are offering long warranties on these battery packs, but to me 100,000 miles on a car isn't all that much. I think of a car as a long-term purchase. While I know that these battery packs have lives that are claimed to be long, the lifespan of NiMH batteries depends a lot on how they are used, and they often do not give their rated number of charge-discharge cycles. Performance starts to erode long before the battery is entirely spent, so owners will probably face limited electric power and longer running times of the gas engine at some point. It isn't realistic to assume that the manufacturers will continue to cover those problems under warranties forever. Sooner or later it's going to be the owner's responsibility to come up with $1,000 - $2,000 or more to replace a set of batteries.

The problem you see looking toward the future of hybrids is that this issue -- storage of electric power -- has always been the Achilles' heel of electric cars, and it seems that it will continue to be so. No one has ever unlocked the secret to storing large amounts of energy in a battery. Plus, batteries are heavy, eroding the vehicle's efficiency, and full of toxic chemicals. Once the performance of these hybrid battery packs worsens significantly, the first owner will probably pay the money for a new set and keep it running as a hybrid. But then it goes to a second or third owner who will probably not have that kind of money and will just forget the battery pack and run the hybrid as a small car with a little 4-cylinder engine that gets pretty decent gas mileage.

My thought is that hybrids will probably eventually change into vehicles where the engine is smaller than in current hybrids and never powers the vehicle directly, but instead serves only as a generator. Then it could always run at its most efficient speed. You'd still have a few batteries for storing up the power needed to accelerate, when high power levels are needed, but overall the engine/generator would meet the vehicle's power needs at the time the power is actually being used. This would be an inherently simpler arrangement than having a gas engine start up and shut down routinely in the course of driving, and probably would also help the engine to last longer. A small diesel engine, maybe 20 horsepower, could easily meet a small car's average power demand, and could probably get 70 to 90 mpg. Plus the engine would always be on to provide heat for the heater/defroster and turn the a/c compressor if needed.

Are you all forgetting that the Prius came onto the market almost 10 years ago as it is? It was a prototype in 1995, had large-scale sales in Japan in 1997, and was on the global market (including the US) in 2000.

The hybrid concept is not "new."

I think it's wonderful that so many people are buying hybrid cars with high MPG's. Whether or not they are recouping their expenses by using less gas, they are helping to counteract the effects of the last 10 years when everyone and their brother decided they needed an SUV. Sure some people haul trailers, yada yada, but these Pruis owners are helping to ensure that the gluttons of tomorrow will not go hungry.

BTW, I have some statistics too. According to www.fueleconomy.gov 16.6 million vehicles were sold in the US in 2003. If my math is right, if each one of those got just one more mile per gallon our country would have saved 522.9 million gallons of gas in the first 12,000 miles. I think that as a culture we have to really think more about the social consequences of our purchases. Should you buy at walmart to save a buck, when the result is less citizens with healthcare? Should you not buy a hybrid, because it takes x miles to recover the added expense? Time will tell.

Here is a link that might be useful: cars sold in 2003

Snookums, the answer to your question is no. The first two lines of my last post were: "There really is not that much totally new or untested technology in a hybrid. The capabilities and limitations of the technology put into those cars are pretty well known."

After all that research he's done, I bet Cowboy will now trade in his SUV for a Prius. ... right Cowboy? LOL

You never know; as I said above, I like the Ford Escape Hybrid quite a bit. But I drive mostly on the highway, and the regular Escape with the 4-cylinder engine gats almost the same gas mileage on the highway as the hybrid model, so I can't see that it or any hybrid would offer me worthwhile savings at this point. But I definitely would not be opposed to buying a hybrid if one was offered that I liked and would save gas in the type of driving I do.

Who wouldn't like getting 10 or 15 mpg better? I can definitely understand the good feeling of filling up a 40 mpg vehicle and knowing you won't be visiting those gas pumps for a long time.

I know a way that saves fuel and costs nothing at all:

Change your driving habits.

Every day I see people speeding from one red light to the next, weaving in and out of traffic, etc.

Wouldn't it be better for society as whole if the focus of fuel economy wasn't what some gee-whiz technology could do but on what we can do now with what we've already got?

The hybrid concept is not "new."

Lets see, change a few words, "The mission to Mars concept is not new"... It just hasn't been proven to be practical over the long run.

From "Toyland forums"

http://www.toyoland.com/prius/archive-toyota.html

Yes, my biggest problem is the lack of support from Toyota. I've had all 4 fuel injectors replaced, the HVECU has been replaced and the EMPSECU needs to be replaced. There seems to be an unwillingness on the part of Toyota to do anything to the vehicle. Almost seems like they are trying to ignore problems to show a higher reliability factor. Jerry

..................

All of a sudden, my Prius is getting 38.5 mpg. I bought this car in March, 2001. And in March I was getting a little over 45 mpg. Then in the summer, it went up to 49. A couple months ago, it started to drop, so I hit the reset button. And it never gets over 40. I checked the tires and such.. Doesn't seem to be the problem. The service people are not being pleasant when I talked about this. What should I do?

.................

Get ready to see lot's of stories like this one,,

I have recently bought a second hand Prius. Milage was 58000 KM's. I have now done 63000 Km's & I suspect that the battery pack is on the way out. Symptoms are:- 1 first start of the day & battery level indicator shows low. 2 Usually turtle comes up within 500 meters. 3 Often the battery level shows FULL GREEN shortly afterwards. 4 Battery level is quick to drop to nearly zero after stop/start in city driving. 5 these symptoms have slowly got worse last 1500km's Does anyone know how to chech the battery pack status? I suspect that the battery pack is shot. I live in NZ & Toyota NZ do not support the Prius!!

.................

By Phyton
I have been a "gung ho" Prius owner, but have recently been awakened to the truth. We own both a 2001 and a 2002 Prius. Enjoy driving them greatly and have averaged better than 43mpg over about 50,000 miles. However, DON"T own one of these little babes out of warranty! Replaced the rack and pinion on the 2001. Cost if you had to pay for it: $3,500. Had to replace the computer in the navigation system on the 2002: Cost if we weren't in warranty: $4,100!! I considered trading the 2001 Prius in for a Tundra or Tacoma pickup truck. Offer for the 2001 Prius with 31k miles: Between $10,500 and $11,500!! Half of what we paid for it! BE CAREFUL!! Savings on fuel costs can be minor compared to other costs.

...............

Again, I'm not pro, nor con on these cars, but I do encourage restraint until they have proven themselves over the long haul.

Here's link to an interesting article where the authors did their own test on how driving habits affected their mileage. By far the greatest difference was determined by how fast one accelerates. Other factors measured were tire pressure, windows up vs. down, etc.

On the same website, I also read some other articles, about hybrids and diesels. Those articles repeated what is said here over and over. Deisels are ideal for straight highway driving and hybrids for the city. Cowboy's point that Hybrids may not actually save you money on gas unless it goes to extraordinary prices is also supported by the articles.

However, I think that hammering away at a single issue at the exclusion of others is an oversimplified approach. My argument is that the "cost" of fuel is actually much greater than the price on the pump. Our fuel usage has many consequences that are hard to measure in dollars. I think most would agree it's the responsible thing to do whatever is reasonable to reduce fuel usage.

Virtually every decision has pros and cons, but harping to Pruis owners that they're not going to recoup their expenses becomes an excercise in futility. Marketing proves that people buy things more because of they way they feel about a product than based on logic. Nobody buys a car based only on gas mileage and nothing else.

I get the sense that people are trying to burst they hybrid crowd's bubble. I realize this is a forum to exchange information, but there's a fine line between the sharing unbiased information and selecting what information you choose to focus on in order to further your opinion.

I wonder how meaningful are the customer complaints posted about the hybrids. There are a lot of people on here who like deisels, and I aspire to get one someday. But as great as deisels may be to some, there are tons of complaints on car forums about volkswagon problems too. I don't think there is any consensus on a perfect car that noone complains about.

Here is a link that might be useful: gas saving test article

**I get the sense that people are trying to burst they hybrid crowd's bubble.**

That's not true. First question in the thread was "What is your opinion on hybrid cars?" That's what you got.

Pointing out the economics and maintainence issues is not attempting to burst a bubble. I dare say most people hear the words hybrid, 50 mpg and $20 to fill my tank and jump to the conclusion that it's going to translate into money in their pocket. All I see anyone here saying is to do the math before buying, and also consider the potential maintainence issues. That's just the minimum amount of research one should do. Yet some currant owners seem to get bent out of shape if someone brings it up. It only seems like hammering because some seem to want to deny those issues even exist.

I agree that there are problems with any vehicle, and statements from web pages about this or that problem with a car do not sway me much. I don't think I've ever bought a vehicle which wasn't listed on Consumer Reports' "don't buy this vehicle" list, yet I've never had a vehicle which has given me that much trouble.

But I think whenever people are putting their names on waiting lists and scrambling to get ANY product, be it a hybrid car, diesel car, the newest Playstation, or whatever the latest fad is, that means that there is a very ripe opportunity for people to be taken advantage of. With the hysteria over $3 a gallon gas, a lot of people are rushing to car dealers to buy these vehicles at practically any cost, and that means paying top dollar for the hybrid and taking a low offer for their trade.

All I was trying to say is, think twice before you do that, because if you're buying the car mainly for its economy, it may not wind up being all that economical.

Wouldn't it be better for society as whole if the focus of fuel economy wasn't what some gee-whiz technology could do but on what we can do now with what we've already got?

Agreed. But that does not seem to be The American Way (TM). One only has to view the popularity (and -- um, longevity) of the low-carb-diet fad ("Eat bacon and steaks and cheese and lose lots of weight!") to see that most people want a magic bullet. The idea that they can discipline themselves to a better state doesn't play very well.

It's really cool to see the long time responders on this site dig through and find their way to the truth, and keep level headed in their approach to the debate.

NICE JOB.

BTW try this little tidbit. If the public at large would simply slow down and drive the speed limit, the fuel savings from that alone would exceed that which could be realized by 1,000,000 hybrid car sales, without the public spending one dollar on new cars.......

I have NO facts to support that statement, as far as I know, none are available, so don't even ask for any. (VBG)It's just common sense, that the faster anyone drives, the more fuel per mile they actually use once they have exceeded a cars peak fuel economy speed. If the speed limit is 65, then drive 65 etc. You'll realize a personal fuel savings no matter what anyone else does, and it won't cost you a dime.

Oh, BTW the question was asked about having training for one of these cars. Lets just say that the first thing I expect to do on one will deal with the pump that circulates coolant to keep the occupants warm in the winter when the engine stops at red lights.........

Ah; Ol' Jetta TDI is at 90K miles, still kicking out 52 MPG consistently. I did have to get new tires back at 70K....but that's about it, other then required maintenance.

Gotta love Diesel. Hyrbrids? Sure, if you want. I'll take proven technology, which has proven itself to me.

**Ah; Ol' Jetta TDI is at 90K miles, still kicking out 52 MPG consistently.**

If I had one and said that, my wife would reply 'yeah, but you still have to be seen in it'. No joke, she's said that to me in the past.

iam going to wait for the chrysler 300 diesel to be sold here.

If, at only 9 years old, your car is ready to be replaced, then you should think long and hard about whether you even want one of today's very complex hybrids. If you can't manage to keep a 1996 vehicle in good shape for nine years, you aren't likely to get five out of a hybrid. Too much to maintain.

Consumer Reports says that any vehicle made in the past 20 years, given reasonable maintenance, should still be reliable at 20 years and/or 200,000 miles - whichever comes first.

If your nine year old vehicle has 200,000 miles on it, then you probably drive a lot on the highway, and a hybrid is not much improvement on the highway. And, if your nine year old vehicle has 200,000 miles on it, then you can disregard my criticism of your maintenance of it.

It's been a long time since anyone posted on this string. I'm wondering if any of the posters who said they wanted to "wait and see" about hybrids have anything to say now, years later.

By the way -- our first Prius is going strong, and our new one (with which I finally replaced the Volvo a year ago) is really wonderful -- I have absolutely no complaints, except that I did lose one "smart key" and it was expensive to get a new one. As cool as it is, I think I'd rather have an ordinary key that I can copy.

The 2010 Prius looks even better. It will have the 2 features I missed from my Volvo - seat warmers and sun roof -- and a lot of other new stuff. I believe it is getting good reviews.

But I won't be getting one; I intend to drive the new one for many years, and we hope that electric cars will be available when my husband replaces the old one in a year or two. And we will go ahead and take our chances on buying one before there have been a few years to "get the bugs out" -- I think using virtually NO gasoline in that car (we rarely drive more than 40 miles in a day) will be worth dealing with a few bugs. Even if the cost of the vehicle isn't offset by the fuel savings, I'm in -- this is about a lot more, environmentally and politically, than just the short-term savings to my personal pocket.

corporate card, leased car, lead foot. mpg? dont care.

Hi Again.

Here in the aftermarket many of the Hybrid vehicles are just now starting to show up for regular servicing now that many have had their warranties expire.

First I have sold NO HV Battery assemblies. If the battery, the inverter, and especially the Prius transaxle has failed people simply trade the car in. I'm still the only shop in the county that has had formal training on these cars, and has invested in the factory scan tools to service them, as well as the rest of each manufactures fleet. Your lost key fob? I could have handled that, but otherwise you would have a 20+ mile one way trip to the nearest dealer.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2006/10/prius_mileage_1.html

Just google "real prius" and you will quickly see a google drop down list that suggests gas mileage. That link above was the first one that came up. Compare that number he quotes to the fact that my 2007 Mustang GT Convertible California Special consistently gets 29mpg with the top down on the highway.

Next week I'll be out of town instructing a basic Hybrid class for a well know franchise based chain store. Most of those shops don't allow their techs to get involved with anything more than tires, alignments (one of the special things I have to teach with these cars) and basic fluid services. Anything else and the cars typically require the O.E. scan tool and only the dealers *(mandatory for them), and top shops like mine have stepped up and made the investment in those.

Come back in about two years and we will see just how big of an impact these cars are having when the inevitable repairs start multiplying.

gelchom, I am thinking of a prius and I drive 40 miles a day in city traffic very stop an d go. And very cold winters ,hot summers , serious pot holage. On the plus side dealers very close by. What do you think ?
John g what part of the country are you in? Do the priuses hold up as well as other toyotas/cars? My 2000 volvo get about 25 mpg and since I don't usually do the highway and most of the time a convertable would either freeze your ass off or sweat something else off up here, I'm not that impressed by a 29 mpg/highway convertible. I need to get real.

29 MPG,, 315HP Convertible. :)

Pa. I drive as far as Buffalo/Rochester NY to teach on a fairly regular basis. (12 or more times a year)

40 mile commute, with city driving? A Prius, or a Civic would work well. In fact, so would an Escape, or a Focus (not sure when but its coming out but soon), Insight, and a number of others.

BTW the Mustang sits in the garage all winter, but if I did drive it, it is quite warm enough in the cold, and if its too hot, we could always put the top up and crank up the AC.

I know but using those things really impacts the milage was my point.
I am not a granny driver either, I prefer a stick, and basically ,uh yeah ,I am the one taking off like a cannon from stop lights and weaving around the fat ass minivans and SUVs going 25 MPH in a 30 zone(so they can save on gas????).
I had a VW rabbit in the past that I really liked, this is my 3rd volvo, and last time I tried to buy an Escape hybrid, they took months to show up at the dealers , so I couldn't wait and didn't trust them at that point. I really don't want something too small but SUV not necessary.