This has been a terrifically interesting thread and exactly the reason why I love this rose forum. Gean, you always seem to touch on some fascinating aspects and you clearly have an enquiring curiosity from which we all benefit. Keep rambling on - I for one, always look forward to reading your postings. Regarding the seemingly numerous closures of rose nurseries in the US, I am thinking that this is a scenario which has certainly not run its course. This year, Peter Beales business, while not going under, has certainly been anxious - postings on their rose forum have revealed worries regarding the future of the company and an awareness that many will go under unless they are able to expand or innovate. A typical european solution is to seek strength in numbers, by strategic partnerships, cooperatives and shared resources. Also, I am susoecting we have a slightly less harsh social system where we tend to pay a higher proportion of our income in taxes, in order to maintain some rudimentary (but vital) safety nets in health, welfare benefits, education and public services etc. Of course, whether these ideals remain in place under the increasingly individual and right-wing regimes across europe, remains to be seen. The US, at least to me, still seems like a young and continually evolving country without the (sometimes stifling ) weight of history this side of the atlantic. The UK imported the Garden Centre system from the US in the 1960's and since then, small nurseries have been continually up against the wall - certainly in the 80's and 90's, many garden centres where actually set up by venture capitalists, rather than horticulturists, which points the way the horticultural industry as a whole is going. We are seeing a picture which is divided between some very tiny operations with a specialist clientale and a massively industrialised system with a few huge corporations which have the capital to continue expansion. Farming, which has immense implications for everyone, is even more under the cosh - in the UK, we have lost over 30,000 middle sized dairy farms and a couple of years ago, the very last firm selling outdoor tomatos in Guernsey closed - unless you grown your own, it is virtually impossible to taste a tomato not grown hydroponically in rockwool! As for roses, if we lose nurseries like Beales, we risk being able to only grow a handful of heavily publicised roses promoted by a few corporate interests - The 'Tescoification' of horticulture (they have already bought out a once family-run, medium sized garden centre business, Dobbies). Resisting the selling and supporting small nurseries, is something we can all do.

I've seen it work both ways, Kitty. Very often, you really can't determine why a cutting just fails to thrive. You can theorize and experiment with many variables and many will respond to something, but not all. It could be the weaker one hadn't the stored resource levels the more vigorous one did. Perhaps it dried out somewhere along the way and hasn't caught up yet? There are many possibilities and what you "should" do depends upon whether paying for a new plant exceeds the amount having two identical plants is worth to you. Very often, trying to propagate from an older, more geriatric plant can be extremely difficult. As the wood ages, the capillaries do constrict, reducing sap flow and causing the geriatric plant to become less productive and less vital and vigorous. You see it more with plants which haven't reproduced themselves, kept themselves more vital through basal production. "One cane wonders" frequently become just this type of plant. Trying to root cuttings from these often results in more failures than successes. Propagating at The Huntington as a volunteer, I frequently encountered the issue. Clair Martin, the Curator of Roses at the time, said you frequently had to "reintroduce juvenility" into the variety to make it easier to propagate. Once you can get a cutting to take and gain momentum, propagating from the new plant has been tremendously easier than from the old, woody one. What made the most sense to me about this is the old plant was likely malnourished from reduced sap flow, so cuttings taken from it lacked all the necessary resources to propagate as easily. Once the plant was new, with more open capillaries and better sap flow, cuttings from it most often rooted much faster and easier, probably because they had more of what they required for propagation. We'd frequently propagate from newly produced plants instead of the old bushes because they rooted faster and easier. Kim

I tried it twice in the stores. Never bought it. When they give you the whole makeover at the counter they pressure you to buy a kit. I told them I wanted to WEAR it for a while, while I shopped, to see how I like it and then I would come back if I wanted to buy it. They did not like that. The first time it was a hot and sweaty day. The stuff itched terribly. I thought it looked cakey. The second time the weather was fair. Later I was at a restaurant and I noticed the white cloth napkin was full of make-up smears. Gross. While I was at the store the second time, a woman who was with a friend who was trying it, told me she liked the product, but that no matter how careful you are it gets all over the bathroom, even up in the lights. I remember reading that someone had posted that here too. They try to pressure you into buying their brushes as if they are different from any other make-up brushes. I told them I already have lots of brushes and the salesclerk gave me a ridiculous story about how the hairs on their brand are from a special animal and the hairs are cut to "pick up the powder" like as if other brushes do not do that. Whenever I come across a high pressure sales person I am tuned off. When they start lying I just leave.

Maybe I missed it, but I'm surprised nobody mentioned Supergoop Glow Screen. It's tinted and has SPF40. I really like it. I also like the Ilia Super Serum Skin Tint. It's more dewy than Supergoop so if you have oily skin, probably wouldn't work. I also really love the Supergoop unseen sunscreen. I just wish it wasn't so expensive. But it goes on and works better than anything I've ever used. It allows me to not burn but still tan, even in the tropical sun on vacations. And it just goes on so easy. I hate having to rub and rub to get the white cast to disappear. None of that with this. They recently came out with one for the body (I was using the original that says it's for face for my entire body because I love it that much). I ordered 2 tubes of the body one but haven't used them yet.