I am a horrible meddler with this sort of thing - definately, some roses are more receptive to this than others. My first major success (although that is probably only in my eyes!) was with a huge moyesii - an enormous shrub which is terribly stingy with basals and a tendency to have gaunt, rigid, thorny and totally bare 'legs'. There is now a Forest Pansy cercis growing as an understorey with Russian sage poking through while the whole crown of the rose towers above - it looks rather well. Encouraged, I started limbing up a few climbers (Meg, Altissimo, a huge Scharlachglut and Iceberg) - any rose which has sufficient rigidity does well - A Graham Thomas grows on top of a 7foot wall while mutabilis is underneath in my garden at home. It was a combination of necessity - having to use as much height while making the maximum use of the tiny growing areas available - and curiosity - I am addicted to mucking about with plants, especially pruning and grafting although hybridising is still a bit of a fail for me). Have only just managed to stop short of attempting espaliers and step-over roses. Roses which have not enjoyed this pruning and training regime(raising the crown, thinning out but definately not grown as standards or tree roses as such) tend to have a fair bit of multiflora - they just cannot be easily kept within bounds and take up too much ground area. Hybtid musks - well, Penelope shows promise (again, a bit mean with basal growth and exactly the right sort of sparse canes) while Moonlight or Buff Beauty are respectively too vigorous (the canes are too slender and long) or just too lax and sprawly. In shady gardens, a rose will naturally stretch for light so limbing roses is a way of working with the hand you have been dealt - in my tiny garden,Zepherine Drouhin, grows against a high north-facing wall and the entire height of the rose is naked and in shade - just a couple of long bare canes tight against the wall - white martagons, ferns and hellebores do a sterling job of concealing the canes) while at the top of the structure it arches forward over a 4 foot wide pergola, flinging out long laterals over the garden like a green roof. Previously, it was a mildewy mess but the ventilation increase of arching through the air instead of huddling against a dark wall has turned a problem into a triumph (slight hopeful exaggeration here). So, this is well worth experimenting with - Sophies Perpetual is next on my list as well as a very upright moss, Mme Louis Leveque. Will probably be having a good prune of Darlow's Enigma (as it is going to block the vegetable garden paths if not curtailed). Falstaff would definately be a good Austin to try. It is a fairly useful way of utilising posts, especially when traditional pillar techniques are not appropriate - I grow some roses absolutely upright and either grow a clematis or something like mina lobata or eccremocarpus or simply leave the upright canes bare as with standard wisteria - as long as the roses can make some horizontal growth over an arch, it will flower profusely. Hmmm, thinking about this question has made me realise that many of my roses are pruned and trained in exactly this way - a good way of maximising space and it looks, to my eyes, graceful and abundant if other planting is encouraged to fill in around the base of the roses.

This has been a terrifically interesting thread and exactly the reason why I love this rose forum. Gean, you always seem to touch on some fascinating aspects and you clearly have an enquiring curiosity from which we all benefit. Keep rambling on - I for one, always look forward to reading your postings. Regarding the seemingly numerous closures of rose nurseries in the US, I am thinking that this is a scenario which has certainly not run its course. This year, Peter Beales business, while not going under, has certainly been anxious - postings on their rose forum have revealed worries regarding the future of the company and an awareness that many will go under unless they are able to expand or innovate. A typical european solution is to seek strength in numbers, by strategic partnerships, cooperatives and shared resources. Also, I am susoecting we have a slightly less harsh social system where we tend to pay a higher proportion of our income in taxes, in order to maintain some rudimentary (but vital) safety nets in health, welfare benefits, education and public services etc. Of course, whether these ideals remain in place under the increasingly individual and right-wing regimes across europe, remains to be seen. The US, at least to me, still seems like a young and continually evolving country without the (sometimes stifling ) weight of history this side of the atlantic. The UK imported the Garden Centre system from the US in the 1960's and since then, small nurseries have been continually up against the wall - certainly in the 80's and 90's, many garden centres where actually set up by venture capitalists, rather than horticulturists, which points the way the horticultural industry as a whole is going. We are seeing a picture which is divided between some very tiny operations with a specialist clientale and a massively industrialised system with a few huge corporations which have the capital to continue expansion. Farming, which has immense implications for everyone, is even more under the cosh - in the UK, we have lost over 30,000 middle sized dairy farms and a couple of years ago, the very last firm selling outdoor tomatos in Guernsey closed - unless you grown your own, it is virtually impossible to taste a tomato not grown hydroponically in rockwool! As for roses, if we lose nurseries like Beales, we risk being able to only grow a handful of heavily publicised roses promoted by a few corporate interests - The 'Tescoification' of horticulture (they have already bought out a once family-run, medium sized garden centre business, Dobbies). Resisting the selling and supporting small nurseries, is something we can all do.

couter, spamming is not allowed here, these are your listings !!! you didn't find great deals, you are offering them, sheesh......

cleanser- Alpha Hydrox face wash or Clean & Clear cleansing scrub in the evening, Olay cleanser in the morning toner- Sea Breeze or Neutrogena oil-free blemish control- Neutrogena Night time clear pore cleanser, Oxy5 for sensitive skin, Persa-gel 10 foundation- Cover Girl Fresh Look, Revlon Colorstay Stay Natural, Revlon New Complexion (all oil-free) blush- Revlon Smooth On mascara- Almay one-coat eyeshadow- Revlon & Almay in earth tones eyeliner- Revlon or Cover Girl(twist up) pencils in navy blue, Wet & Wild in a medium blue lipliner- Wet & Wild in a nude lip tone lipstick- Using up my stash of discontinued Naturistics & trying to color-match it with something new. (BTW, whenever possible I'm supporting the U.S. economy & jobs by buying from American beauty companies like: Revlon, Clinique, Almay, Cover Girl, Estee Lauder, Mary Kay, Merle Norman, Nexus, Jheri Redding, Clairol, Olay, Liz Claiborne, etc.) Karen