In a former life, I used to work with inbred mice. The minimum number of generations of brother X sister mating was 20 consecutive generations before an "inbred strain" was considered established. In many cases, the number far exceeded F20. The advantage in that situation was that after 20 generations, the resulting population was considered to be genetically identical (or close to it). This has terrific potential in medical research. Theoretically, genetics is no longer a variable. A particular trait can be "highlighted" with inbreds. A rare mutant trait may become normal in all individuals. As bambi pointed out, fatal traits are often highlighted by chance instead of "desirable" traits. It is rare to get inbreds to F20 because they simply die out! In plants, this may or may not be desirable. Each individual will eventually appear identical. Nurseries would go broke--no variety! --Stitz--

If you remember your highschool biology, this is where punnett squares come in. You've got dominant traits (uppercase letters) and recessive traits (lowercase letters). Lets pretend Red pepper pod color is dominent, and yellow pods are recessive. So you have two purebred peppers next to each other, a red one (RR) and a yellow one (yy), and they accidentally cross. .....y.....y R..Ry..Ry R..Ry..Ry All of the seeds from that crossbreeding will be red, because the dominant red gene (R) is in all of the crosses, and it overrides the yellow. Now, that is your F1 generation. Say you save the seeds from that F1, and plant them. Say there is no cross pollination, only self pollination (which is most likely), you get this: .....R.....y R..RR..Ry y..Ry..yy So you end up with a 25% chance that the F2 is going to be pure Red, a 50% chance that the offspring is going to be a hybrid that is red, and a 25% chance that it will be yellow. If you were to take one of those Ry hybrid reds and backbreed it with a pure RR red, you'd get this: .....R.....y R..RR..Ry R..RR..Ry So your F3 would be 100% red, with a 50/50 chance of carrying the recessive yellow gene. Now, peppers have a lot more going on than just a single thing like this, but it gives you the idea. Heirloom peppers are generally stable breeds, aka ones that have been bred out for at least 8-16 generations to ensure there are no weird recessive genes lurking around. Hybrids may look normal for several generations and then spit something weird back out again. And then you get into the stuff with two dominant genes that end up creating actual hybrid appearances (like if in the above example Red and Yellow were both dominant, the RY offspring might come out Orange, for example, while still having offspring that come out Red or Yellow). Scrupulous seed dealers will only sell seeds that have passed at least the 8th stable generation mark (as in, 8 generations of seed grown out with no surprises), sellers like Pepper Joe on the other hand will happily sell unstable hybrids if they can get the sale. Its one of the reasons you need to look up the reputation for a seller, and never trust seed off of ebay. Because even if the ebay seller picks the seeds straight out of the pod and puts it into an envelope for you, they still might have been an open pollination cross that will mess it up for you. But please, don't let that scare you away from anything thats OP, as its very unlikely that an OP pepper actually hybridizes, majority of the time a pepper self pollinates. Which, as long as its a stable line, will get you more of what you want. Even then, I occasionally like to intentionally plant F1s from an unstable line (like the snacking sweet peppers you get from the grocery store) just to see what I get. Peppers sold for food don't need to be stable, and it can be interesting to see what grows (especially when it gives you a glimpse into what they're hybridizing to make the peppers they sell you). Sometimes the mystery of what grows is the most fun part!

Thanks “sneezer2” for sharing information about “Vilmorin”, “Dona F1”, “Rebelion F1”.

1) Are there any Sungold or Sunsugar F8s or F9s out there? Sungold Select and Sungold Select II. 2) When do OP seed grown plants become *heirloom*...is there a number of years, or do they ever? Some say whenever an open pollinated (OP) tomato is passed from one generation to another within the same family, it becomes a "family heirloom" although you'll find that most "family heirlooms" came recently from overseas with minimal geneological data, or have a claim appended to them of "grown in her family for over 80 years," "reportedly grown by (insert a native American tribe)," or "grown in the area for as long as anyone alive can remember." Others say it takes 50 years for an OP to become an "heirloom" except: Some people feel a commercial OP tomato bred by professional or university breeders must have been stabilized and in common circulation before 1941 because the folks who determined the "commercial heirloom" category feel that was about the time that commercial hybrid tomatoes became available to home gardeners (even though the really famous and persistent two home garden hybrids weren't on the market until 1946 and 1948) :::smile::: OR If the tomato were an intentional cross with both parents known, and at least one being some sort of "heirloom" to begin with (sometimes this qualification is overlooked), and the gardener takes the time to stabilize the intentional cross, then some folks consider the stabilized cross to be a "created heirloom" (even though this procedure is exactly the same procedure as for hundreds of commercially produced OP tomato varieties which don't qualify as "commercial heirlooms" because they missed the 1941 cut-off date) :::shrug::: OR If the tomato was an accidental cross with one parent unknown and the other parent hopefully qualifying as one or another kind of "heirloom," and the gardener spent the time to stabilize the accidental cross, some folks consider the stabilized cross to be a "mystery heirloom" unless some sluethy tomato enthusiast can prove, or at least insinuate successfully, that the person claiming "bee pollination" in fact manufactured the cross or completely fabricated the story :::giggle::: (Hey, a guy has to have fun somehow in the afternoon!) 3)If you are growing heirloom or OP tomatoes, what are the chances of two different types being cross-pollinated? If the chances are high, how far apart should different varieties be grown to help insure no cross-pollination? Chances are very low unless you have native pollinators very active in your area. For example, in my area, I have only infrequently seen bumble bees visit tomato blossoms. As to how far apart one must separate tomato plants to ensure no cross pollination ... how far can an insect pollinator fly with pollen attached to its body parts and then land on another blossom? And why do some folks say 6 feet for tomatoes but 100 or 200 feet for peppers? This remains a mystery to me. 4) And lastly, how the heck do the hybridizers do it? For instance those who are producing the Sungold tomato seeds. I could certainly understand high prices on F1 hybrids if they actually manually hand pollinate flowers. And even then...how do you do that? Those little flowers are so tiny, and how do you keep them from fertilizing themselves. Are there any websites that show photos of this process? Click Here for hybrid seed production in tomatoes pdf. Click Here for the same thing as a slide show. Click Here for an easy to follow along demonstration and a Web site that has a wealth of tomato breeding info and links. Click Here for the North Carolina State University Cultivar Lists where some parents of older hybrids are named (like Avalanche = Mozark x Glamour, or MoCross Surprise (Missouri Surprise) = Mozark x Sioux) but where they won't name the parents of many proprietary hybrids or hybrids that are still under production. Bill