The way I understand it is that when you pollinate one plant with another to make a hybrid it is an F1 cross. If that hybrid produces seed on it's own when it blooms those hybrids would be an F2. They can come out looking entirely different than the original! If you take seed from an F2 it would then be an F3 and so on... hope this helps

Yup, hdd's got it right.

Another way of writing it would be "x self". For example: Vr. 'Pahoa Beauty' x self = Vr. 'Pahoa Beauty' F2. Then PB F2 x self = PB F3, PB F3 x self = PB F4, and so on.

BTW, keep doing that particular equation, and you'll end up with some of the most spectacular Vrieseas you can imagine, but don't tell anybody I told you (I just found this out myself)! ;-)

I wish that worked as well on Neo's but it doesnt

hdd,the ad in the YuccaDo nursery catalog says the following; "These seedlings were taken from Dyckia choristaminae X Dyckia dawsonii crosses.When these two species are merged,the unique qualities of both parents fold into one of the most desirable dyckia crosses.The narrow spider-like leaves of D.choristaminae combine with the compact form and rich burgundy to silver-grey coloring of D.dawsonii,resulting in a finely sculpted folage plant with excellent coloring and striking form.Since these are seedlings,and NO TWO ARE ALIKE,EACH IS ONE OF A KIND."
[caps by me]
Lisa had a recent post too,of completely different looking offspring from the same parents.Dyckias then too,I think.
Apparently,the 'F' series offspring can look different from the parents,and also from each other as well.
Fascinating stuff to me.Is there a known reason this happens,and an understandable explanation? Anyone?
Bob

Bob you lost me on that post. Im going back in the dummy corner LOL

Bob, every time you cross a hybrid back to itself you reshuffle the genetic deck, so to speak. Even though you haven't added any new genetic material, you can get different traits expressing themselves, and recessive traits can come to the fore.

If what you started out with was just a simple 2 species cross, then eventually over several generations the 2 will merge and become a fairly stable genetic entity. The more complex the hybrid was to begin with, however (in terms of number of ancestral species involved), the greater the potential for diversity.

Not to get too off-topic or controversial, but how anyone, regardless of their religious beliefs, can deny evolution is beyond me. I wouldn't be able to do what I do if it wasn't a fact of life! I also feel, though, that there is some sort of divine hand in the reshuffling too. I don't see any contradiction at all in these two ideas, so I don't understand what all of the fuss is about! ;-)

Thanks for the easy to understand explanation Lisa.You did good!
Re. the comment:
Much to do about nothing Lisa. I think its safe to say that the material world did not invent itself. A computer did'nt evolve from a junk pile.There is Intelligence behind it. Divine intervention can certainly use evolution to accomplish the desired results.As you do with your hybridizing.Nature is so complex,all living things are complex,so much so,that we take them for granted because they boggle the mind if thought deeply about.
Bob

I think we're pretty much on the same page, Bob. ;-)

I just want to illustrate with a couple of pictures taken at my local neighborhood hybridizer's. The first is the one you refered to earlier-- all of these are F2s of Dyckia 'Brittle Star'. That hybrid has 3 different species in its background, so the offspring can combine and recombine genes in more ways than if there were only 2. Even a single species can show quite a bit of variation from seed.

{{gwi:495555}}

The second is just a little thing that caught my eye. When I asked its name I was told it was either an F3 or F4 of Vr. 'Pahoa Beauty'. There were several other equally striking lovelies. Now if that's not divine, I don't know what is!

{{gwi:507363}}

Can't match the beautiful examples of crosses others are putting up . . . But I can throw in that the "f" is shorthand for FILIAL GENERATION and the number indicates how many generations down from the parents that cross is.

and from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary . . .
Main Entry: filial generation
Function: noun
: a generation in a breeding experiment that is successive to a mating between parents of two distinctively different but usually relatively pure genotypes

Lisa I don't think anyone here will take offense at your worldview. Actually its quite refreshing. As a certified Slayer fan for over 20 years (I won't elaborate on them or their music, if you are curious you can google them) I believe that while there may be something larger than us at work, it may not be what any of the world religiions fanatically preach as the 'one true thing', and it may not be all good all the time. I think that diety may just be a jokester master hybridizer, keeping everything a little mixed up to amuse itself. EVery once in a whole an experiment gets out of control...(the dinosaurs, global warming, famine in Africa, Charles Manson, Iraq...)but for the most part everythings marginally okay most of the time

Right on! Now there's some info that's a little easier to digest. Thanks to all.
P.S. daveandlaura, that is some extremely obscure info.

I would like to point out that continually selfing F1, F2, F3, etc, not only enhances the good traits we are looking for, but any bad ones too, thats why outcrossing with other plants that have the traits we desire is really a good idea.

Ok I don't hybridize Bromeliads, but I do Daylilys, and have done fancy guppies and angelfish with good results. Its all pretty much the same, breed with the best you can get, cull, out cross, back cross , and line breed until you get what you want.

I find hybridizing Daylilys so fascinating because of the fact that you never know what you will get, their genetics are so complex everytime you think you've seen it all something new pops up.

The ideal situation would be to have 2 lines of unrelated plants to work with that were somewhat alike, with the traits you are working to enhance. Every second or third generation, you would cross those 2 lines actually creating 2 new lines, this is called LINE BREEDING, and you just cull the plants that don't measure up. Then you always have the option of back crossing or out crossing again if you find something new that fits the program.

Its interesting to hear that selfing Vrieseas produces better and better plants , but it doesn't work with Neoregelias.

and remember.....when it comes to genetics nothing is set in stone.

are things EVOLVING or ADAPTING?

I have no problem with Creation, Evolution, and Adaption.

Bottom line...........you do what ever you want and the plants will also and we hope we get lucky

Okay, now I'M lost, LOL!

Can you explain what you mean by "lines" of plants, Bambi, and how crossing two lines creates two new lines?

This is kind of beyond what most of us hobbyist hybridizers are doing with bromeliads. It's more like "gee, I wonder what kind of babies this guy and this other one will produce?", rather than any methodical focus on developing a desirable strain. It's actually pretty rare that anyone takes it to F3, F4 and beyond.

I imagine there are several reasons for this: a) many cultivars seem to be self-incompatible to some degree or other, b) bromeliads, for the most part, are propagated vegetatively so there is no real need to create a stable line, and c) they're still not the type of big commercial crop that roses, strawberries or even daylilies are, so there are comparatively few "professional" breeders, although there are some. Probably some of the work being done by the big Guzmania and (flowering-type) Vriesea producers would come the closest to what you describe, but by far the most tinkered-with genus in the family has been the Neoregelias, and that has primarily been the work of hobbyists who don't really have any long-term goal beyond satisfying their own curiosity and indulging their creative impulses. Lord knows most of us aren't making any money off of it! ;-)

I don't agree that selfing Vrieseas necessarily produces better plants than selfing Neos. It's just that every once in a while you get a really good combination and successive generations bring out some really striking features that didn't exist in either of the parents. 'Pahoa Beauty' would appear to be one of those, but there may be Neos. like that too. 'Grace' x 'Passion' comes to mind, there are a lot of good clones of that, and they're not all F1. I certainly hope it's not true because I've got a cool self-pollinator Neo. that I'm hoping I can fine-tune over several generations!

I think alot of Grants plants are some good examples of F1 F2 F2. Since he doesnt register alot of them, its hard to tell who is who LOL

I always have high hopes that I will get a cool "natural hybrid" from my brugmansias....I have tons of big brugs in all colors that always get crazily cross pollinated every year by bees and set seed pods. I used to throw them all away, then I thought I'd try to see what might come up if I planted some. I threw the seeds out in the yard and let them sprout and culled out 20 plants (from literally hundreds of seedlings!) to grow. SOme of them bloomed this season and all were a disappointment. Most were white. A few were non-descript pink with no conformation attributes that would make you save them. Ended up composting them all.

It would be easier for me to explain using Guppies as an example.

Lets say I want to build a strain of the best Blue Cobra guppies ever seen. The first thing I would do is go out and find the best breeding stock I could find from 2 different sources. Next I would use the females from each source with the males from the other. I would then cull the young fish, keeping only the best. I would then have 2 lines. I would normally breed them for 2, 3, or even 4 generations, and switch males again. This allows me to keep them from becoming too inbred, and since I'm only keeping the best the breed should improve since I'm weeding out the fish with the traits that don't measure up.

In breeding Daylilys, there are many factors involved in making a good plant. Most imortant is the flower, but also important are scape branching and bud count, because it doesn't matter if it is the most beautiful one ever grown if it only has 6 buds and a week long bloom cycle. Foliage and plant habit are also a concern.

I suppose in bromeliads since in many cases its the foliage that counts, it would be less complicated, but it would depend on what you wanted to do. Crossing plant A with plant B to see what comes out is always a good idea, but we were talking about enhancing plants through selfing.

Again while doing that might make the desirable qualities come to the surface or enhance them any undesirable traits will also come out with more clarity. Lets face it if one of the faults is that a plant doesn't pup readily, it will probably not be very popular since we all like plants that grow into clumps and display well.

There may not be anyone out there breeding Bromeliads like that, but it is posssible to selectively breed using line breeding techniques. Unfortunately it probably takes years to see results with Bromeliads, and only months with Guppies.

After thinking about it, the hybridizing of Bromeliads is not as complex as Roses, Irises, Daylilys etc. There probably is no point in going beyond the F3 generation, since I suspect sooner or later all the resulting plants will begin to look very much alike.

The general rules in hybridizing would be to always use the best available breeding stock. Cull, Cull, and cull some more. Backcross and outcross, and occasionaly go back to some of the older tried and true varieties and use them again with some of the "cutting edge" plants. Establish a goal or goals and work to acheive them.

If you doing it for yourself, have fun, your opinion is the only one that counts unless you are looking to name and introduce plants to the general public.

I'm no geneticist but Im not sure fish and plants are apples to apples

The same basic principles apply, wether its plants, fish, apples and/or oranges. If you are breeding for a specific trait, it is most often done by selective breeding, out crossing, back crossing, and line breeding.

Line breeding is a tool that is used to inbreed with out doing it excessivly, since you are not always breeding the same plant to its self.
Ok select 2 good seedlings, and go to the f3 or f4 generation by selfing them, instead of going with an f4 or f5 generation you cross the seedlings with one another, shuffleing the deck again.... then to continue you would pick the 2 best seedlings and start again. Like I said earlier, sooner or later most of the seedlings are going to look almost identical if your just selfing the same plants unlesss you use other material, using the other seedling is using new material even though they are related. They are 3 or 4 generations removed from one another. The key is to select the best and dump the rest.

You could always select 2 good plants that are unrelated but look somewhat alike, share the traits you desire so you cross them, lets suppose you get 2 really good seedlings, now you have options, back crossing to the parents, crossing them to one another, selfing, or using something new with them. You could do all four, all the options are open and all offer oppertunities to improve whatever it is your working with.

Line breeding can be a very good tool to enhance the desired traits in working with plants, but most people would just continue using new material in their hybridizing. I don't find it to much of a stretch of the imagination. The same breeding techniques can be applied. It would take time, but the results could be very rewarding.

Yes there are some possibilities for applying those techniques to bromeliads, and anyone who's been hybridizing for a while does develop certain traits that they tend to focus on, but there are also some differences between breeding animals (or seed-propagated plants) and bromeliads.

What you're talking about is perfecting a species, and what I'm talking about is combining two completely different species, or more often two different (and often complex) hybrids. The goal of the first one is narrowing the results down to the "best" representation of a desired trait (and then, in the case of guppies or other animals, keeping it going), whereas the goal of the second one is broadening the spectrum and getting as diverse a population as possible, all of which can then be propagated vegetatively.

When I used the examples of Vr. 'Pahoa Beauty' and Dyckia 'Brittle Star', the thing that makes these desireable plants to F2 and F3 is that from a single clone you can obtain a population of infinite variety. At some point, however you may wish to fine-tune the results, and breed for the Vriesea with the pinkest foliage or the Dyckia with the most pronounced spines, and that's when you could start using the line-breeding techniques, selecting only the best clones and culling the rest.

I suppose we should define terms here too. Usually when I use the word "selfing", what I mean is setting seed from the pollen of the same flower. There are a number of bromeliads that are self-pollinators, i.e. they set up on their own with no outside intervention, and these often are extremely difficult to out-cross, even when you emasculate them. These are the ones you often see F2s of, and they're not always the most desireable plants. Some can go either way, but there are quite a few that are self-incompatible, or at least they seem to prefer outside pollen. Technically, though, I suppose that using a sibling to pollinate it would also qualify as "selfing", and the results would still be F2s. What if you cross an F1 to an F2, is that still considered selfing, and would the offspring be F3, or how does that work?

I believe that selfing means just that, its own pollen is used to pollenate it. I'm not too sure you can consider all seed pods that you did not pollinate as selfs either because there is always the possibility that an insect or even a breeze transfered pollen from one plant to another.

Crossing an F1 to an F2 would be a back cross, and I don't think the offspring would be considered F3s, that would be a new F1.

The "F1", "F2" can and is often used to designate FIRST GENERATION FROM WILD STOCK, SECOND GENERATION FROM WILD STOCK, etc.

I will say this, when I'm out in the garden pollinating Daylilys, I do SELF CROSSES with seedlings, SIBLING CROSSES, and BACK CROSSES with seedlings to both parents, both ways if possible. Then if I see something in a seedling I want to try and enhance. I will also explore other possibilities using other plants that also have a trait I'm interested in developing. I will say this too, out of THOUSANDS of seedlings I grow only a few are worth keeping, but once in awhile you will hit the right combination, and get a high percentage of keepers.

It is by using combinations of these techniques that we have the variety, and excellent plants we have today.

In the end the goal should be an attractive plant that is superior to both of the parents, and/or something unique.

So much for laymans terms and dummies. Im not reading this thread anymore. Im going to makemy own 'Feeble Mind' thread

I have enjoyed the heck out of this thread. Lots of great info. Really appreciate the in depth discussion.

hi i read this thread and i kinda get the idea now on F2 and F3's but i just came accross this "Bromeliad Neoregelia Rod French S2 Hybrid" on ebay is the S2 a typo or is it something els, if it is something els than what is it. thanks

Here is a link that might be useful: S2 or F2

I have no idea what S2 means, so I'm thinking it's probably either a typo or the seller thought that was the correct term.

Good spelling is very important for good communication! ;-)

thanks lisa if you dont know what it is i am gessing it must be as you asy typo or what he thought was the correct term

LOL brom phil , may be time to invest in `spell check' software. We all make the odd spelling errors but your postings are getting a bit cryptic:? We suspect you're winding us up a bit!! We enjoy them though so keep them coming!! :)
Agree with Lisa, never seen the term S2 used for broms, so most likely to be F2.

oops sorry i faild engilsh never was that good at it ill put my postings through microsoft word befor i post them now thanks

I can suggest that you use Firefox instead of IE. It spell checks, in real time, all text fields, like this post I'm doing right now. Too bad it doesn't do any grammar checks.

Does it put in punctuation? ;-)

hey i used to use firefox i got a computer geek friend who reconds it is more secure, but my dad reconds he knows ll and wont lett me use it, sob sob

S2 are the new hybrids developed at Area 51. ;-)

They glow in the dark and probe your other broms.
S3's are worse though.....

Haha!

Firefox rules..

Sander

LOL, Sander

Maybe because it's Valentine's Day, I just noticed that the figures S2 form a heart shape.

S3 forms more of a................. well, we won't talk about that. ;-)

In a former life, I used to work with inbred mice. The minimum number of generations of brother X sister mating was 20 consecutive generations before an "inbred strain" was considered established. In many cases, the number far exceeded F20.

The advantage in that situation was that after 20 generations, the resulting population was considered to be genetically identical (or close to it).

This has terrific potential in medical research. Theoretically, genetics is no longer a variable.

A particular trait can be "highlighted" with inbreds. A rare mutant trait may become normal in all individuals.

As bambi pointed out, fatal traits are often highlighted by chance instead of "desirable" traits. It is rare to get inbreds to F20 because they simply die out!

In plants, this may or may not be desirable. Each individual will eventually appear identical.

Nurseries would go broke--no variety!

--Stitz--