Questions about OP and F1 hybrid tomatoes

16 years ago

I think I've spent most of the day reading about tomatoes because of a quest to find a good roma type tomato. For the past 4 years I grew LaRossa which I purchased seed from Pinetree Gardens, and they no longer carry the seeds. I like their small packets because I don't need many plants, but loved LaRossa to use in my canned Salsa.

And then this year Sungold seed prices seemed sky high to me and I was trying to figure out why. Then I wanted to know more about tomato hybridization and found several links from this forum to a couple sites that gave me all the answers I was looking for.

But then those answers led to more questions.

1) Are there any Sungold or Sunsugar F8s or F9s out there?

I'm a *sweet-sweet* cherry tomato lover and these hit it for me and for *most* of my farmer's market customers. In the past years I have either grown singly Sungold or Sunsugar, but never both during the same year. I myself could tell (or remember of) any taste difference between the two except that Sunsugar did seem a bit more crack resistant, however, the year I grew Sunsugar was less rainy that the years I grew Sungold. Last year I had lots of volunteer plants from Sunsugar. Most were very very good and just as good as the F1 seed grown plants. [I had two plants that produced very nice uniform fruits that were peach colored. They were very sweet and flavorful (too me anyway) but cracked very bad. I so wished now after reading what I have, that I had saved some seeds from those just for the color and sweetness and size.] So with respect to question 1), if there is already someone who has carried down the line of Sungold or Sunsugar, which is very similiar to either, I would love to get seeds and carry on with harvesting my own OP seeds, instead of having to purchase such high-priced F1 hybrids. If not, I think I would like to try it myself based on last years F2 generation.

2) When do OP seed grown plants become *heirloom*...is there a number of years, or do they ever?

What leads to my next questions is that tomatoes are self-pollinating. From my understanding of what I have read, pollen from one tomato flower pollinates that ovule of that same tomato flower.

3) If you are growing heirloom or OP tomatoes, what are the chances of two different types being cross-pollinated? If the chances are high, how far apart should different varieties be grown to help insure no cross-pollination?

4) And lastly, how the heck do the hybridizers do it? For instance those who are producing the Sungold tomato seeds. I could certainly understand high prices on F1 hybrids if they actually manually hand pollinate flowers. And even then...how do you do that? Those little flowers are so tiny, and how do you keep them from fertilizing themselves. Are there any websites that show photos of this process?

This is off-topic, but I really love Candy onions. So in 2006 I left 2 bulbs in the ground and they went to seed and I saved seeds in 2007, and sowed them a few weeks back. I just found out that Candy is F1 hybrid. Waaa. There is not an ONION forum like Tomatoes here at GW. Can anyone suggest any sites for hybridizing and line breeding onions (if they are similar in having 2 genes) or should I ask that at the hybridizing forum? [I seldom visit there.]

Also would love to know of any tomato sites or registries that list the parents of F1 hybrids ... or are they seldom told?

Thanks for any info. :)

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Comments (4)

HoosierCheroKee
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
1) Are there any Sungold or Sunsugar F8s or F9s out there?

Sungold Select and Sungold Select II.

2) When do OP seed grown plants become *heirloom*...is there a number of years, or do they ever?

Some say whenever an open pollinated (OP) tomato is passed from one generation to another within the same family, it becomes a "family heirloom" although you'll find that most "family heirlooms" came recently from overseas with minimal geneological data, or have a claim appended to them of "grown in her family for over 80 years," "reportedly grown by (insert a native American tribe)," or "grown in the area for as long as anyone alive can remember."

Others say it takes 50 years for an OP to become an "heirloom" except:

Some people feel a commercial OP tomato bred by professional or university breeders must have been stabilized and in common circulation before 1941 because the folks who determined the "commercial heirloom" category feel that was about the time that commercial hybrid tomatoes became available to home gardeners (even though the really famous and persistent two home garden hybrids weren't on the market until 1946 and 1948) :::smile::: OR

If the tomato were an intentional cross with both parents known, and at least one being some sort of "heirloom" to begin with (sometimes this qualification is overlooked), and the gardener takes the time to stabilize the intentional cross, then some folks consider the stabilized cross to be a "created heirloom" (even though this procedure is exactly the same procedure as for hundreds of commercially produced OP tomato varieties which don't qualify as "commercial heirlooms" because they missed the 1941 cut-off date) :::shrug::: OR

If the tomato was an accidental cross with one parent unknown and the other parent hopefully qualifying as one or another kind of "heirloom," and the gardener spent the time to stabilize the accidental cross, some folks consider the stabilized cross to be a "mystery heirloom" unless some sluethy tomato enthusiast can prove, or at least insinuate successfully, that the person claiming "bee pollination" in fact manufactured the cross or completely fabricated the story :::giggle::: (Hey, a guy has to have fun somehow in the afternoon!)

3)If you are growing heirloom or OP tomatoes, what are the chances of two different types being cross-pollinated? If the chances are high, how far apart should different varieties be grown to help insure no cross-pollination?

Chances are very low unless you have native pollinators very active in your area. For example, in my area, I have only infrequently seen bumble bees visit tomato blossoms. As to how far apart one must separate tomato plants to ensure no cross pollination ... how far can an insect pollinator fly with pollen attached to its body parts and then land on another blossom? And why do some folks say 6 feet for tomatoes but 100 or 200 feet for peppers? This remains a mystery to me.

4) And lastly, how the heck do the hybridizers do it? For instance those who are producing the Sungold tomato seeds. I could certainly understand high prices on F1 hybrids if they actually manually hand pollinate flowers. And even then...how do you do that? Those little flowers are so tiny, and how do you keep them from fertilizing themselves. Are there any websites that show photos of this process?

Click Here for hybrid seed production in tomatoes pdf.

Click Here for the same thing as a slide show.

Click Here for an easy to follow along demonstration and a Web site that has a wealth of tomato breeding info and links.

Click Here for the North Carolina State University Cultivar Lists where some parents of older hybrids are named (like Avalanche = Mozark x Glamour, or MoCross Surprise (Missouri Surprise) = Mozark x Sioux) but where they won't name the parents of many proprietary hybrids or hybrids that are still under production.

Bill
im_a_believer
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks so much Bill! :) I haven't checked your links yet but will save them to review later. I've still spent a lot of time reading today on the internet and for some reason that makes me very tired. I found this great blog site and she has some really nice photos -- what I was hoping for, and a lot of great information too.
How to hybridise tomatoes
She also recommened Carol Deppe's book and I ordered that today. For the most part I would like to grow all good O/P or heirloom variety veggies -- but would also like to dabble in creating some of my own. (I'm very frugile and prefer to save my own seeds to plant.) Reading her blog spot I found out that only seeds on a LIST can be sold in the U.K. Ya never know, US might come to that...hoping it never does of course.

I searched more about the onion question but could find little information except that they are outbreeders as versus tomatoes which are inbreeders (sp) -- no good photos on emasculating or hand pollinating or the like. Perhaps I will just go back to Walla Wallas since they are O/P.

Will also be searching for a source for the two varieties you mentioned.

Thanks again.
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Oh, this is just for us - we'll plant as many as we can in the space we have, I'm on the waiting list for the farmer's market, so we'll sell excess there or I'll just can them. My family goes through a lot of salsa and spaghetti sauce. Once we find ones that *we* like (and customers like if we bring any to market), we'll continue to plant those, this year is a trial. But I am looking for salsa/sauce types, I used the Celebrity last year but am thinking paste type would be better. I don't waste anything, I made tomato juice from the "guts" after seeding and peeling for salsa, but it takes a lot of tomatoes (forget how many Celebrity) for 8C of solids. New law in CT allows residential farmers to sell acidified foods w/o a commercial kitchen (or filing with FDA), but they're still working out the pH testing, food safety training, and record-keeping requirements so I don't know if I'll sell any canned goods this year. I have had requests for salsa and pickles, but this year's products might have to be for our own (and friends') use. I was looking more for what does well in this area, and some opinions on taste, both for fresh eating and for salsa and sauce. If I say I like G. Johnsons, will Brandywine be good? Is Glacier early but tasteless? Is Speckled Roman tastier than Amish Paste? Are they too small to bother with after peeling and seeding, etc.? Customers at this market are affluent and heirlooms seem to sell well but I don't even know if we'll be allowed to bring them in since there are already people selling them. We are looking more for a market for our berries (my cousins and I together) and my jams, acidified foods is possible/cost effective. My cousin (actually my uncle) grow PYO blueberries, I have wild blackberries and blueberries, and we all have grown large veggie gardens (that have supplied the extended family) in the past but nobody has ever marketed anything. There is a town-sponsored CSA here that has asked me to supply produce/products but I said I can't promise 25 of something on Thursday and 25 more of the same thing on Saturday - again, they've got lots of veggies, they're not looking for another source for tomatoes (I'll ask if they want "sustainably-grown" heirlooms from organic seed next year, but I won't be certified) but they want berries, jam, jelly, salsa, pickles when/if possible.
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im_a_believer
Original Author
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
wow...the links are great! Excellent photos.
naturegirl_2007 5B SW Michigan
16 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
There is an alliums GW forum that includes onions, garlic, leeks, etc. Maybe they can help with onion info.

Questions about OP and F1 hybrid tomatoes

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HoosierCheroKee

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Questions about OP and F1 hybrid tomatoes

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HoosierCheroKee

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naturegirl_2007 5B SW Michigan

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