"They don't have any promotions (like the SZ does), so it's out of the running. "

This is very short sited !

The Miele and it's 30" cousins from Gaggenau and Thermador represent a much better buy in my opinion TODAY. They also have the xtra width you want. The 700 seires is getting long in the tooth, and while it's a fine fridge and co., these others are a more modern design. They are also not that much more expensive either. Thermador is always running promos if that's what is really what's most important to you.

Antss -- the promos are not really what's most important to me. I want a fully-integrated, reliable fridge. Fully-integrated almost always means a lot of money. So I'm not
being a skin-flint. Considering that I'm involved in a new build and I'm spending a ridiculous amount of money on everything, I'd like to save some money where I can. Especially when products are going to do the same job more or less with the same results.
I like the Miele's design, but there were a few other "issues" that also pushed it to #2 position as an option. My husband preferred the design of the SZ more for our children. We found that the location of the drawers are lower and easier to manage than the Miele. Another thing that made me feel a bit uneasy is the post that mentioned that the Miele fridges are made in Turkey. I had just come home from listening to a Miele representative at the appliance store tout the engineering and brilliance of all of their products and he kept emphasizing that it's made in Germany and how when companies outsource their products, eventually it cheapens the product. He spoke of how Bosch dishwashers were once made in Germany and since they moved the production line of things to Mexico, the quality has suffered. So when I read that the Miele fridges are made in Turkey, I thought, wait a minute... So I went to the store and spoke to another salesperson and she said well, some Miele parts may be made in other parts of the world... But I didn't get a straight answer from her. Anyone know for sure?

Thanks for the other two recommendations.

Miele fridges sold in US are made in Turkey in a Bosch owned factory. They sell small ones in Europe,what we Americans would call bar/office fridges,that are made in Denmark and Germany.

Except for the absolute TOL, Bosch dishwashers sold in the US are made in New Bern,North Carolina.

Deeageaux -- I'm in Canada. Are we also getting the Turkey-made fridges? I'm assuming that's the case but would like confirmation. Does it include all of their fridges or just certain models? Do you know where their dishwashers (like Optima) are made? I have my own reasons for being uncomfortable with buying Turkish-made products. So I'm glad I read your response to a post a few weeks ago.
Also, is there any documentation, perhaps on the internet that verifies this info?

Thanks for your time!

Dishwashers made in Germany.

The Indpendence line is made in Turkey.

Confirmation? Look at the "Made in" Plate inside the fridge. I think they have the same laws in Canada about those plates. It is not like they are putting this on their webpage or brochures.

On another site I read someone say these are made by Liebherr in Germany.Liebherr makes completely different stuff,and like I said I have read the plates in stores.

I read they were made in Turkey on this forum then inspected the fridges myself and saw the tags.

I was looking at the Thermador built-in French door and said to my-self "What the *(%^!". Thermador(except SxS-that is made by Whrilpool here in the USA),Gaggenau,Bosch as well as these Miele built-ins are made in Turkey.

Are you Armenian/Greek/Macedonian?

Nice work!!!! deeageauz.

I really think the folks here deserve to know "All the facts" that we can supply them with, rather than the lastest Marketing Hype.

Especially when they are asked to pay "High End" or premium prices for this stuff!

Gary

silly- the fridge's configuration is a big reason to choose one over another.

re: the Turkey production - Miele outsources very little and when they do, they maintain tight control over what happens. In this case they send a lot of parts to the Turkish factory to be assembled off a basic platform. This is not some third world operation where the work force is largely unskilled and there is little infrastructure. That factory is producing some of the most modern and highest quality design fridges in the market today. In Canada you have access to two lines of Miele fridges - the Master Cool series is made in Bosch's Turkish factory. The Euro Line is think it's called is made in Europe and probably by Liebherr as Miele has had a long standing relationship with them. Might be a rebadged Bosch too, I'm not certain, as there is basically zero market for that type unit in the U.S.

All Miele DWs made in Germany.

"and how when companies outsource their products, eventually it cheapens the product."

while this can be true, it is not always the case! You don't think Miele makes every single part on their vaunted dishwasher , do you??? Outsourcing is simply part of the global manufacturing process today. It's how you design and manage that relationship that determines whether you get quality and consistently good parts or products. Design a crappy assembly and farm it out to the lowest bidder, then wait for them to arrive and you'll get junk. Design a quality one, sub it to a firm with a proven track record, put a team of YOUR people on the factory floor to oversee production and maintain quality and you'll get get something as good or better than you could do yourself.

In the case of Bosch's dishwashers their quality has suffered, but not because of crappy outsourcing. They built their own factory, trained their own people and it still goes downhill, why? Because they are trying to compete on price and in order to meet that they have driven down the quality. Miele does not really engage in this practice, they design the best and realize that they won't sell a dishwasher to everyone.

"Also, is there any documentation, perhaps on the internet that verifies this info? "

Be wary of this - just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true.

BTW - what's the cost of the SZ 700 series all fridge in Canada these days ???

Deeageaux - Thanks for the update. I'll look at the plates from now on.
Also, very perceptive -- Armenian.
I'm not even the type that's really patriotic. If I were, it would be completely out of the question. I just have a niggly bad feeling about it and if I spending that kind of money, I want to feel great about buying a product!

Antss -- I've asked several appliance salespeople and they've all said that the "Miele European Refrigeration" is made by Liebherr. But these are all bottom freezers and I don't want that.

As I mentioned earlier in my post, buying a Turkish product is a negative for my own reasons. Deeageaux picked up on it. I wasn't thinking that it was being built in a third-world environment. In fact, I'm certain that it's built in a TOL factory. But due to my own family history/ethnicity and major issues with human rights violations, I don't feel comfortable buying a product made there.

In Canada, the prices are IC27R ($7499), 736TR ($8999) and 700TR ($6499). My husband thinks I'm crazy for suggesting that we pay this sort of money for a refrigerator (remember, I'm buying two), but he's relenting. I'm sort of shocked that he's being so aggreeable, so I want to order the fridge before he changes his mind!

So, I'd really like to hear what people think of the IC27R specifically.

Other than things like nuts and bolts Miele does manufacture all their own parts for Miele Dishwashers.

All the Miele fridges I have seen on display here in LA say made in Turkey.

The Turkish factory may be world class but I for one am not paying made in Germany prices for a Turkish refrigerator.

The thing about the Miele is, we haven't a clue what's inside it. Does it use a VSC, and if so, made by whom?

One hopes this info is not as hard to ferrett out as it was with the SZ (and as best I can tell, The IC-27R does use the Whirlpool VSC.)(Embraco)

I don't why you can't find this on their sites (SZ, Miele, Thermador etc etc).

The VSC's have many advantages---The potential to use 40% less power than a conventional compressor. They are able to control temperatures more accurately, some of the new ones are "Oil less", can be made a smaller size & they don't have to be mounted vertically, thus saving some room etc etc etc.

As I mentioned before, many of these companies just advertise "new features" or premium parts or whatever---then you go down to "Specications or Technical details" and there is little info there.

The lighting is sure antiquated in that SZ thou, still 40 watt and 20 Watt incandescants---"State of the Art"????

I guess I'm freakin strange, but when I'm asked to pay premium prices for "The Latest and the Greatest" They better dern well spell that out for me (Even thou I'm not from Missouri) (LOL)

Good luck with your pending purchase!!

Gary

billy- thanks for the $$$ info, I have no problem with your objecting to a manuf. site for any reason. I simply wanted to point out to people that a product's manuf. country is no guarantee of quality or lack thereof. Re: the IC27 - I'm guessing you'll not get much response as they are fairly new and don't represent a good value proposition against the comp.mentioned already. They are fine units with solid backing, just old design. Also, given your parameters, it's pretty much your only choice.

Miele use Embarco in the MasterCool line, no idea what's it the smaller European ones. Appliance Co. websites are marketing tools - not technical research vaults for consumers, who mostly don't care who or what compressor a fridge has or how many newtons of force the hinge plate will withstand before it fatigues or fails. They also don't want a quick read for competitor's engineers to glean a starting point for their work.

"Miele does manufacture all their own parts for Miele Dishwashers. "

No dee, they don't - they are not in the stainless steel, rubber/plastic extruding, insulation or semiconductor, LED lite, LCD display, or wire manufacturing business. All this stuff comes from somewhere else and get assembled into a dishwasher or further processed by Miele to construct a finished product. This is not a bad thing, as Miele proves. It how you manage your supply chain that separates the junk peddlers from the co.'s with stellar reps. There are very few (if any) companies with total vertical integration, the manufacturing process and product is too specialized today.

Maybe one of you could explain why the 27" SZ has more capacity than Miele's 30" column refrigerator (16.2 cu.ft vs 16 cu.ft.). My husband started to think that the Miele would be better for our family because it would be (in total) 6" bigger but then we discovered under their website specs that Miele's reporting a smaller capacity. The difference in capacity is negligible but considering the Miele is wider and taller, I'm wondering how this can be.
Also, how much are these two items in your neck of the woods? I was perusing Miele's Canadian website last night and there's a notice on the "refrigeration" section that they're raising their refrigeration prices after February 21st. Right now a 30" single door fridge is $6899 (fully integrated) in Canada. The two things that are really stopping me from buying the Miele now are the configuration of the door and drawers and the "made in Turkey" stamp. UGH! Do you think I'm crazy for even considering these as issues?

Nope. Why are they made in Turkey, instead of Germany.
To save money! Are they passing any of that onto you?
Nope, they gonna ask for even more!

Another thing to consider is parts availability.
Do a search (for instance) Miele oven problem, (but should work for any Miele product). Most of the time, when the Miele breaks it is down for quite some time as the Miele parts are expensive, and local repair shops are reluctant to carry them-----so the parts havta be shipped in from Germany. (Note the Lady that had to do without her double Miele ovens at Christmas)---Bummer!!!!

I think with a little bit of searching, you will find many more stories like this, and the last thing one wants is for a Fridge to be down for any length of time.

Unfortunately, with the design of 2 small fridge only, (fully integrated) you have "Painted yourself into a rather "Exclusive and Expensive Corner".

But be that as it may, I would rather get my parts from Madison Wisconsin, than wait for them to come in from Germany!

Gary

Thanks Gary, for your feedback. I have read the Miele owners' issues with various products and some of the arrogance received by their customer sevice agents, reps and service trades. But I fear SZ may have the same issues. I went to another appliance store today. They no longer carry the Subzero for the reason that you just gave for the Miele. He said parts were taking too long to come in when something broke down and customers were a little more than irate when it was taking a month to get a part. So they decided to eliminate their products because they weren't getting the support and they didn't think it was worth the hassle. Now, that's his side of the story... but it makes me a bit worried. My husband would give me a really, really hard time if something broke down and we had to wait an unreasonable amount of time to have it fixed because I keep telling him that these high-end products are made to last.

"Nope. Why are they made in Turkey, instead of Germany.
To save money! Are they passing any of that onto you?
Nope, they gonna ask for even more! "

dodge - this is just nonsense. Miele has those fridges made for them, and while It may be cheaper (it may not be too) the REAL REASON is expediency and ability. Miele has NO refridgeration infrastructure. They have always partnered, and those former partners cannot deliver a suitable product for the American market. So in looking around miele decided that their largest competitor would be the most suitable producer of the product for the near term. Do you think Bosch is giving Miele prefered costing on the units it assembles for them???? Just do a back of the napkin cost analysis of miele vs. a similar bosch / gaggenau / thermador unit. You'll see that the miele's price is right in line with those. Higher than some , lower than others. Also keep in mind that miele sends a lot of it's own parts and system assemblies to that factory to be integrated into the BSH platform - then the finished product has to be melded back into miele's distribution channel. Given all these additional costs, I'm surprised the cost diff isn't greater. Like I said before, this is not some third world or how cheap and fast can you spit em out Asian knockoff joint, so it's not like Miele is slapping their logo on a turd and lining their coffers with the boatload of profits from ignorant customers.

They wanted an American type fridge/freezer TODAY, and starting a design AND factory from scratch and living up to the miele quality standards takes a long time. Bosch ahd one already in the works, brand spankin new! There is also the risk that they'll never sell enough units in NA to justify the expense of a new factory, it's pretty much a certainty that the MC line will not do the volume in Europe to justify a new factory.

Regarding the parts - Miele keeps a HUGE inventory of parts near it's New Jersey headquarters and that's where they are dispatched from. If out of stock - the wait from Germany certainly adds to the time, but out of stock is out of stock whether in Dresden or Des Moines.

"But I fear SZ may have the same issues."

This is true of ALL companies. None make everyone happy 100% of the time on every product! Both firms are two of the best in the business today. Remember that does not guarantee you will be happy and defect free for 20 years, just a very high percentage - there IS a difference !

Re: the capacity - while a cubic foot is a cubic foot, how I arrive at that measurement is more subjective. Is this total airspace, shelf space, shelf space less lipage on said shelf, how do you account for drawer hardware, ect....

That story about why they dropped SubZero sounds a little fishy to me. If the manufacturer is having parts issues usually companies lay in inventory on the most needed parts, and develop relationships with bigger companies that have more parts on hand whom they can turn to in a pinch. It doesn't make sense to drop a line over parts. It makes more sense that they weren't making enough profit for the amount of floor/salesman attention they were giving the product, or that SZ discontinued them for whatever reason.

I don't know about the current models, but other than the well publicized recall they had a number of years ago regarding some bad copper tubing (or something like that) that made a whole lot of units fail, the biggest issue is generally the icemaker. One can live for a very long time without an icemaker. It might be irritating, but one can make ice in trays or containers.

The difference in cubic inches doesn't tell the whole story. It's not just the total volume but the usable space. Some fridges have interior space that can't really be used. For some people the top shelf of the Miele is wasted because they can't reach. I love it, myself, but I'm moderately tall. I use it mostly for containers of food that is already cooked/prepped. These work well with the shape of the innards, which do impinge on the space. My tall things are on the shelf below. A lot of it depends on how one organizes.

When I was shopping, I was going through a lot of permutations with SZ. I didn't think that the 27" all fridge had adequate space for my purposes. The 30" Miele seemed to have more of the space I wanted in the places I wanted it, so that it could be a good choice compared to the 36" SZ. That also toppled me into needing to get supplemental refrigeration, and give up a full sized kitchen table (for an island with fridge drawers--which I really really wanted, anyway). I say "seem" though, because we have great showrooms that have all of the units lined up. I can't tell you how many times I went and just opened them all and compared, and measured and came back and did it again and again.

I totally get how you feel about the factory in Turkey. For me, it's an irrational antipathy to anything Krups, for similar reasons. To me, that just makes the decision easier! The best choices for integrated really are SZ/BSH/Miele. Only the first on that list doesn't give you the creeps. So get that!!

I love the drawers on the SZ too. I was trying to convince myself that I wouldn't miss the independent fridge drawers if I had those. :)

Is there a reason why the Thermador Freedom columns are not in your "Short List"?

Gary

Thanks plllog for your input. The appliance store's story about SZ didn't sound right to me either. I don't think it was about not making a profit though. I live in a pretty affluent area and many people here wouldn't blink an eye at SZ/Wolf prices. I'm not including myself, I'm not originally from here, and I'm blinking both eyes like crazy... Perhaps SZ found out that they were not playing by the rules and cut them off. Who knows.
I do know that all of the appliance stores I've visited have massive areas allotted for Miele -- "coincidentally" all are positioned at the front of the store where you'd have to be blind to miss it. All of the salespeople are pushing their products as "the best" and all of them proudly tell me that Meile is made in Germany. This marketing push and hype makes me suspicious. I`m wondering how much their store and personnel is receiving in order to accommodate all of this.
I do love the interior look of the Miele and the selection buttons for various foods for the drawers is really cool. But I`m wondering if these additional electronics are things that can easily fail. That`s the reason I`ve decided not to get an ice dispenser.
I`m actually surprised that the Miele drawers don`t have soft close mechanisms. At least it didn`t seem to when I tried them out. The SZ has the system and for my kids (and husband :) ), it`s an essential mechanism to have.
Gary -- I have`t read rave reviews regarding the Thermador products and from what I`ve read, it`s also produced in Turkey. I looked at them while shopping and they seemed to have all of the negatives of the Miele but not as many of the impressive details that make the Miele stand out. It makes me chuckle that these products are called Independence and Freedom and they`re made in a Turkey. Ironic!

Well, maybe we'll start eating "Turkeys" on "Independence" Day, instead of Thanksgiving and Declare our Freedom?
I did do some more checking on the Mieles/SZ's

The IC-24R is rated at 348 KWh/yr
The Miele is rated at 311 KWh/yr

so it is somewhat more efficient.

Nutting to write home about, thou.
348kWh/year is equal to about $37/yr (2008 avg US Electricity prices)

Strangely enough, the SZ Freezer uses "almost double" that amount 609kWh/yr or $65/yr US Electricity (2008)

I assume you are doing 2 fridges and 2 freezers? If so
be sure to have enough circuits to run all 4 appliances.
I doubt anybody would recommend running just one circuit for all.

Since you are living with the "Tuxedo/Evening Gown" crowd (LOL), check with some of them about service of Mieles/SZ.

That would weigh heavily on any decision I would make!

Gary

Thanks for the numbers Gary. I just realized I wrote Made in a Turkey. Oops! I`ll check around about the availability of service for Miele and SZ. Although, I can`t be sure they`d be telling me the truth.

I think I would hafta vote for the SZ alto I hate their "Direct Buy" type marketing--IE, hide the price like Direct Buy does, then you find out it is $5000-$7000
to "Join". At least the SZ's are made in the US. Some folks here on GW do tend to paint an "Over Rosy Picture" of the SZ, for instance we had ours 20 years but the compressor was replaced after 5, and we have had "Some service calls", but at least they were honest about the calls.

To me service calls especially on a fridge are "Abnormal" I've had Gibsons, GE's now a (Jenn-air for over 4 years) and none has ever needed a service call.

I think even worse than SZ's marketing is Miele's, which leads folks to believe the Fridges are made in Germany, when they are actually made in Turkey!!
Have you had a chance to check the stickers yet on the
Mieles to see if they are indeed made in Turkey?

Gary

Gary, It's not nearly just SubZero. A great many upper end makers don't advertise prices. You can call any store and get the number very easily.

SB5, To be fair, the part of the Mieles that are made by Miele are made in Germany, as I understand it. The training literature probably says just that, but the salesmen don't want to "confuse" the customers so abbreviate it into misinformation.

My experience with the Miele for about a year is that the electronics work fine, but the middle drawers are hard to get to sit just perfectly and squeak. No soft close on mine. I also keep pulling the end cap off of one of the rails on the same drawer in the freezer. The freezer does occasionally need to be reset (freezes up?), which is just an off-on with the switch. Changing out the filter for the icemaker takes a lot of torque strength at floor level, which can be an issue, but the notification light that it's time works great. The reset procedure, OTOH, is really hard to make work right. I had trouble getting the menu to come up. I was doing it right--it's a PITA and obviously put in after they had finalized the buttons. I finally got it to work while I was on the phone with customer service. Not that I was doing it any differently by the rep's instructions, but that it just finally came up. That's all the bad I can think of.

One other issue that I know of with SubZero is that it doesn't like sand. That is, if you live where there are a lot of airborne particulates, they can get in and clog up the works, so you really do need to vacuum at least every six months as instructed. In less gritty environments people can go years without vacuuming without any ill effects. If you have grit and don't vacuum you can develop compressor issues.

That's the sum total of the negatives I know.

I've talked to the Miele customer service a couple of times, and they've been very available and responsive. So were Wolf (other side of SZ company). We have a very good SZ repair here--or so I think. It's not like one sees them but once in a raccoon's age.

A story: Uncle had an English car (he had left Germany for England as a youth). It left parts all over the road as English cars are wont to do. So he bought a Mercedes. It ran fine. Auntie wouldn't ride in his "Nazi machine" (she'd left Germany too). I don't know about the current politics, but historically I'm not sure there's any to choose between the Turks and the Germans. If you're going to be creeped out by one or both of these, however, why invite it into your home? SubZero is a very good product.

You probably shouldn't buy a SZ as I'm sure the Bakke family kicked some Native American Indians off of their land in order to build the SZ factory back in the day.

I don't think the current crop of owners, workers, or execs, had anything to do with any of the atrocities that occurred against a particular group at some point in history.

Buy on a products merits, not politics.

Antss, you're right objectively. That creeped out feeling, however, is hard to overcome.

Nice review, Pillog. I thing when it is a "Horse Race", as this one is, Price, Quality, Features, I would tend to support the American Workers besides, Ya "owes us one",(LOL) sillybilly5, I bought The Elux Oven and the speed oven which was built, guess where????? Canada!!!
Yep I read the tags.

Gary

"That creeped out feeling, however, is hard to overcome."

Agree - and as this is America I don't have a problem with someone who wants to buy X for whatever reason. Just thought I'd post a bit of soapbox commentary to keep my rep intact.

No worries bout your "ReP, antss, I will be looking at daiseys from the wrong side before ya lost that!!!

Back to business. What I would do is download the operators manual for both the Miele and the SZ, perhaps the installation manuals too.

Reading the Op Manual is kinda like having the appliance in your kitchen, before ya get it. Also check op maintence with each. With 3 or 4 of these "babies", the less often the better and the easier the better.

I downloaded the Op Manual on my Elux Speed oven a month or 2 before I got it and salavated the whole time, reading it. I couldnt wait to get it! Course now, I have forgot everything I read Oh Well---Still a good idea and might save ya some "Surprises" Like Pillogs Oven (Ooops Sorry)

Gary

"Ooops"? You mean where I posted that reading the manual and asking the question saved my relative from a bad purchase? You're right, Gary. Reading the manuals and installation instructions (available on all the manufacturers' websites) is a very good way to get to know the appliance. Also check other literature, like compnay cookbooks, at the stores. The recipes are often really bad, but they give you insight into how the appliances work. Though my scale came with some good recipes. :) There's an exception to every rule. :)

I was referring to the post you did on the Viking Oven. Hopefully that Pre "Feature" was out-lined in the Op Manual----can you imagine if Rhome had bought one of those?????Parish(SP)? the Thought!!!

Particularly with integrated fridges and freezers, I sure would want to know how to and how often I have to vacuum out the condensor and other maintenace that might be in
"hard spots to get at".

Gary

No dee, they don't - they are not in the stainless steel, rubber/plastic extruding, insulation or semiconductor, LED lite, LCD display, or wire manufacturing business.

No they don't make raw materials SS,plastic,or insulation.

That is nuts and bolts stuff.

Yes, the are making their own circuit boards.

Value added stuff.

There are very few (if any) companies with total vertical integration, the manufacturing process and product is too specialized today.

Rubber,iron,sand in manufactured good out is gone as far as I know.

But Miele does make their own "parts" not commodities like SS or LEDs.

I thought I'd update some of the very helpful people who piped in here regarding my refrigerator decision. Basically, my KD decided it for me so I'm relieved. She said that a span of 48" (for the fridge) would be the best scenario for the wall that I'm placing the fridge on, but that a 60" span for the fridge would work too. However, a 60" span would squish all of the cabinetry on that wall. I was considering 2 24" Liebherr's when I was initially planning the kitchen but I thinks they're too small for my family. So we decided to bite the bullet and order the 27" SZ. The 54" span is a good compromise.
Antss -- for the record, I know that you were playing devil's advocate, and I know that there probably isn't a country that doesn't have blood on its hands, but the Turkey issue is closer to home for me. Buying one wouldn't give me a "creepy" feeling like was suggested. It would have given me a very guilty feeling.

Congrats on "your" decision sillybilly. Please keep us updated about the performance/reliability of the SZ's.

Gary

Hey! Congrats on the middle ground. May they bring you only joy and cool, fresh food!

Hi Sillybilly. By any chance are you from Oakville, Ontario? I ask this because I got the same story about no longer carrying SZ and Wolf from a longstanding, local appliance store, and I also found the story fishy. Anyway, for what its worth, I had to make the same decision this weekend and went for the Miele Columns. I tried to like the SZ because its cheaper, but looking at the 2 side by side, there is simply no comparison on look and feel. SZ needs a new model, badly. Cheers.

dee- we'll just have to disagree on what's nuts and bolts stuff. Since stainless steel, expanding& fibre insulation, and plastic is a huge percentage of those dishwasher AND you can't just run out and get that stuff off the shelf (like nuts and bolts)at the hardware store - I'll stick by my statement that almost no manuf. today is anywhere near self contained.

JohnnyToronto - Yes, I'm from Oakville. Are you? If so, we've probably been to the same appliance stores since not many of them carry the Miele and SubZero. I really like the Miele too and wish the SZ looked as cool, but alas, I have some issues with the Miele. Please let me know how you feel about it when it's been up and running for a month. It would be neat to compare notes since we were comparing the same fridges.

Sillybilly, yes, I'm also from Oakville (Joshua Creek). I thought your story sounded familiar! Too bad for that store as its been in the community for a long time, and used to be the only ones to cary the high end appliances. Oh well. We are just starting our reno, so appliances won't be until end of March or early April. Will let you know how it goes though. Cheers.