The black ones ... how long did you ferment them?

What was the average temperature each day during the ferment?

Was there plenty of liquid in the mash or did it kind of dry up after a couple of days?

Did you ferment them in a deep sided cup or a flat container? What I'm asking here is whether the liquid was deep enough to keep the seeds submerged in liquid for the entire ferment or was the liquid so shallow that it got like thick gravy with lots of mold mat?

If it were me, and not having any addition info to go on, I'd either do another ferment using plenty of squeezed out liquid with the seeds and gel ... or maybe bleach the seeds swirling them in a cup for a couple of minutes in 1 part Clorox to 4 parts water, then rinse thoroughly, spread the seeds out on a paper plate, and pick out and throw away the seeds that still looked black.

Bill, I wonder if he had some seeds blackened by internal BER? Were the "black" seeds totally black or just spots on them?

Bill, I wonder if he had some seeds blackened by internal BER? Were the "black" seeds totally black or just spots on them?

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Bill I'm not but one would see any internal BER when squeezing out the pulp b/c it's very obvious.

Over the years I've gotten both dark brown and black seeds and all from overfermentation. My tomatoes were not where I lived and especially late in the Fall I couldn't get to where my fermentations were to check on them all the time.

Germination tests can be done to check for viability and I know the dark brown ones I tested germinated OK. I always threw out the black ones, not b'c they perhaps didn't germinate, but b'c I wanted to send the best seeds possible to SSE members who requested seeds of me as well as when I made seed offers or when I was sending seeds to friends or for trials at those commercial places I trusted and dealt with.

Carolyn

Thanks for the input. Overfermentation, oh well. Black seeds seem completely black. I fermented bor 3 and 4 days, temperatures got into the 90s, yes I had enough liquid. I used 'to go' noodle soup containers, a black cylindrical bowl with a clear cover, punctured a hole in the cover. Interestingly enough the seeds I fermented longest did not have black seeds after the process. I will not use the black ones for trade, and maybe shorten the time on the next batch?

JMO but I would definitely shorten your fermenting time and move them to a cooler area. The fermenting process doesn't require the use of heat - happens all on its own - and letting them get hot is a sure way to cook them.

Dave

Dave, I have them in my dining room, I did not heat intentionally, they are at ambient temperature. 90 would be the hottest it got (average much lower), we have no AC. I could move them under the shade of the fig trees, or wait until it cools down around here to ferment the rest.

You know, I do a "scrub" initially before I start the fermentation and then watch the seeds closely beginning at the start of day two. If you look closely, you can tell when the green gel is dissolved and that is the primary reason for the fermentation in the first place. In the heat and humidity here around "Hot-Lanta", two summertime days is usually adequate. I have even begun to add a little tap water to slow things down a bit. Getting a solid "cake" of fungi and ???? on top of the fermentation is not and never has been a priority - only getting rid of the gel. If the "cake" forms, okay, but it isn't a requirement. Sometimes, I only get a whitish "slime" around the top of the contents of the small mason jars I use. My seeds come out clean and pretty well free of those fuzzy "hairs". They dry to a consistancy that allows them to bump one another without sticking together. The "scrub" going in and, when needed, coming out of the fermentation is the key to it all. My test germination rates are always in the 95% plus range.

I figured out that you have to get away from specific times for fermentation, because it varies greatly from place to place. I can get results in two days that Dr. Carolyn needs four or five days to get. We both get great seeds from the process, but the heat here accelerates the process for me. So, just get out there and pick up that container you're using and make an informed decision to let it go another day or finish them. Your ambient temperature greatly affects the time needed to dissolve the gel.

When mine starts forming a firm mass on top of the liquid, I take a bamboo skewer (my choice of instrument) and break it up and stir things to get the gel-eating chemistry more evenly distributed.

So, don't be locked down to a certain time frame. Take charge and be in control of the process. Remember, you're only trying to get rid of the gel.

Anybody know a funny seed processing story?

I have had seeds from green-when-ripe and yellow tomatoes go dark or "black" on me a lot quicker than red or pink tomatoes. And that's not a casual observation, but one that has repeated over and over again.

Anymore, I don't do long ferments. Rather I ferment until a bit of white puffy mold convers the top of the mash and rinse the seeds off real good. I find you only need to ferment until the mash breaks down enough to release the seeds and the gel coat no longer clings to the seed coat when you spray the seeds with a strong burst.

Then after a good rinse and pour-off of the trash, I bleach the seeds for a couple of minutes with 1 part Clorox to 4 parts water to kill the pathogens ... followed by a thorough rinsing to rid the seeds of the bleach.

Yeah, I've tried the TSP, Oxiclean, Comet with bleach, etc., and after all is said and done, a good two or 3 day ferment as said above followed by a bleach bath does the trick just fine for me.

Hey, Bill. You know, I also do a bleach bath and it's based on what you wrote a couple months ago in a seed-saving thread. Four parts water to one part bleach for about two to five minutes. I also do the scrub you wrote about in that same thread. It just seemed logical to give the gel removal some mechanical help at the start. I should have thanked you before, but I'm definitely thanking you now.

All throughout my processing of the seeds, I'm culling out the undesirable seeds. (My bamboo skewer and I have a mission.) :>) My wife kids me about how meticulous I am. I also use a skewer to spread the seeds out on the cheap paper plates as Bill suggested. I end up moving every seed to a position where it doesn't touch any other seed and that allows me to execute my final culling.

So, thanks again, Bill. To know that I am using processes which are very similar to those of an experienced tomato-ologist like you does wonders for my confidence.

I also want to thank Dr. Carolyn. It was Dr. C.'s posts that helped me break down all the info and see the actual task (get rid of the gel). She helped me understand that the gel was there to keep the seeds from germinating inside the tomato (although, this happens on rare occasions - but that is a defect) So, I want to thank her as well. My two to three day process doesn't stink half as bad as some of her posts have suggested. LOL :>)

I have also concluded that the little bit of tap water I put into the juice and seeds slows down the process. I think it may be the chlorine in that tap water. As soon as that evaporates off, the fermentation really gets going.

It's hard to only thank a couple of folks. There are so many others that added their indorsements to the subject. Digdirt, wvtomatoman, jean, trudi, suze, and a host of others. Thanks for caring about folks you have never met face to face. The combined knowledge that is present here is an extremely powerful entity.

Lastly, I've always said that the best thing about knowing something happens when you're allowed to pass it on to others.

So, again, THANKS!!!!!

This AM's observations.

I've been trying to ferment seeds myself with help from Freda, but last week I just couldn't continue and she volunteered to take home the IDed fruits and set up the rest of the fermentations after watching how I do it.

This AM we did hers and mine.

4/5 of hers were no good b'c she hadn't added enough water and the contents were stuck to the drid bottom and black. She felt awful, but most of them were not varieties I'd planned on listing in the 2009 Yearbook so that was OK and two others have all my new ones and I'm hoping they're going to get much better seed production than I have b/c I didn't even get fruits off several of my new ones in this lousy season/

So what's my message?

My message is that when I'm doing the fermentations I check to be sure that nothing dries down and it might be a good thing for those of you new at fermenting do the same thing.

And it's one thing to overferment when there is sufficient juice and still another issue if the contents are allowed to dry down ( smile)

Carolyn

You folks are a great resource and I really thank you all for sharing all this information. I will do the bleach rub and dry again. A lot of the Creole seeds do look good so I am hopeful. I think my problem(s) was too much time and heat rather than lack of liquid in the containers.

It cooled down so I will be fermenting some German Green seeds next. I have a few late season plants that have not even flowered yet (Hungarian pink, pantano romanesco, and Zapotec pink I think) so I am still hoping for more tomatoes. We often have them until December here but this has been a really bad year. We had a couple of bad heat waves in mid spring (107F ouch!) that killed every seedling in the green house/terrarium. Then there were no seedlings (good varieties) for sale in the local nurseries, so I resorted to growing ghetto tomatoes. By this I mean that I nursed volunteers from a new garden, I did not know what they were (tomatoes is all I knew). Lots of pests and diseases too! The plants must have weakened by the temperature extremes. Not great but enough tomatoes for sauces, cooking, and the large cherries do OK for salads. I did get a nice one in the bunch, I think it is a brandywine.