dave1mn2

You asked about the source for the yield/volume of soil experiment.

Ortho Books - All About Tomatoes

"The chart clearly shows...if you have the deck space for eight 5 gallon containers, the total yield...will be almost double that of the plants in the 4-cubic-foot box."

The study discusses soil and fertilizer used, as well as the importance of training methods for 5 gal plants.
In their optimized experiment they achieved an average of 29 fruits set in 90 days.

mikec4w, just a figure of speech. I don't smoke and glad to hear you don't either. When somebody makes an ambiguous statement to the effect that self watering containers grow better plants than non self watering containers which isn't true I tend to make such statements. As far as roots growing through the drain holes that occasionally happens but is not the norm. And if it does happen thats OK. I even had a tomato plant punch a root through the bottom of one of my styrofoam containers. I do have a surrogate garden at work where I grow my maters in terra firma. As jaliranchr said,"whatever floats your boat".

digdirt, the only thing I posted was a link to a commercial site that had pictures of plants growing in 18gal containers. I post my photo's at both the sites that start with tomato and Daves. Your all welcome to come by sometime and have a look. I don't have photobucket or the like at this time so I can't post photo's here. Ami

in my world, self watering containers DO work better than any other kind of container. A LOT better.
All I am trying to get accross is, " A NOVICE,JUST STARING OUT, WILL HAVE BETTER RESULTS WITH A SELF WATERING CONTAINER THAN A 5 GAL PAIL"
If you don't believe that you have either never grown tomatoes in a self watering container or have forgotten what a 5 gal pail tomato plant looks like if it gets too much or too little water.

OK, Mike, you've made your opinion known throughout this thread. You don't have to beat people over the head. People can do what they deem best for themselves based upon cost, climate, convenience, etc. It is entirely up to the individual.

I have decided to make my own self watering container.

I bought the 18gl buckets from HD. I will add about 4" of river rock to the bottom with a feeder tube to add the water.

I will then put in a screen to separate the soil from the rocks and have a cup with holes that extends down into the gravel so the soil can wick the water when needed.

Coolbythecoast,

Thanks, Using this,

http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm

I guess its a fair comparison since you always have some room at the top. Seems kinda counter intuitive though. The larger single mass should hold moisture better and definately would be more moderate regarding temp swings.

Did they hypothesize why?

Anyone that finds something that works well for them is a wonderful thing but 120 bucks would in all but the most unfriendly of sites, build and equip a nice, smallish, inground garden and IMO, value goes to the inground though I know some choose for various reasons to have preference for containers. I find them useful but not better than and certainly not cheaper than inground.

dave1mn2, you asked: "Did they hypothesize why?"
in regards to small containers being more efficient fruit/soil volume.

No, it was a rather quicky study. As I am a electronic designer/technician I am quite proficient at providing a hypothesis that sounds good, no matter how wrong it turns out to be ;P So I am pretty guarded about off-handed hypothesis in general.

Regarding the cost of self watering boxes, I use some in the patio as growing in concrete slab has proven to be difficult. But I am 'way too cheap to spend $120. I buy 18 gal rubbermaid for $5, kitty litter box for the soil shelf for $3, less than $1 for PVC pipe and whatever I can scronge around the yard for the rest of the components. I buy soil by the cubic yard at $25 so this cost is nominal, I would add amendment to an earth planting anyway.

Punchline is that For under $10 I have a very useful self-watering box that does indeed regulate watering better than I have done with 5 gal pots. My only complaint is that the plants grow so big that I do have to water daily.

Here are some of my plants grown in 5gal and 26qt styrofoam containers. Ami

Here is a link that might be useful: My 5gal container plants

oops, I guess I did things all wrong. Someone gave us a dozen little plants this spring, we never did anything with them and 4 died. So I grabbed 4 pots that my arbovites came in and planted the tomatoes in there. They may be 3 or 4 gallons, black, 2 plants to a pot, and used a garden soil mixture. I water here and there mostly if I'm thinking of it. Anyway it's my first endevor into growing food. So far I have had 6 tomatoes, very sweet and tasty.

{{gwi:1380229}}

So now the obsesion begins, similar to when I found the lawn forum in 2005. Having seen some of the beautiful plants seen here, I know I need to change my plan for next spring.

sorry if you think I am beating something over someones head. I do not mean to do so. Eggheads picture above is a perfect example of what I am talking about. The picture shows 2 plants in each of his pots. They are very nice for a non self watering pot. This picture below was my FIRST attempt at growing tomatoes.... Egghead, buy yourself one of these pots and you will out produce those 8 plants with 2 plants,
{{gwi:1380226}}

For the past four years I've grown full size indeterminates, determinates, semi-determinates, and dwarves in 5-gallon pickle buckets, 5-gallon black plastic nursery tubs, 7-gallon black plastic nursery tubs, and 10-gallon black plastic nursery tubs.

During the same seasons, I also grew the same varieties and others in raised beds of heavily amended media, and ground-level native soil gardens at the same time.

What I've found is that certain tomatoes grow much better than others in containers. Some just seem to adapt better that others. Some of the varieties adapt particularly well to containers for me are Indian Stripe, Bradley, and Lemon Boy. Those three grew equally well in 5-gallon pickle buckets and 10-gallon black plastic nursery tubs ... really no significant difference.

I don't use automatic watering systems ... I water with a garden hose using city water. I water directly onto the surface of the growing media ... a ten count minimum ... or until I see water running out the weep holes for several seconds.

The growing media I use are whatever blend I can afford of composted forest products, native clay soil, composted horse stall bedding, some sand, some agricultural limestone, and any other composted material available. If some economy brand bagged potting mix is on sale or discontinued price, I use that too.

I mix time-release granules into the mix before planting, and periodically boost the plants with Miracle-Gro or similar product, tomato or rose formula. I water whenever I can insert my finger down into the mix and it feels dry ... usually every two or three days, sometimes more frequently during hot spells.

Another cultivar that's doing extremely well in a container this year is Spudakee (Cherokee Purple PL) x Novikov's Giant. This is an F1. Another surprise is Burgundy Traveler ... but the one in the raised bed is doing twice as well as the one in the 10-gallon tub.

Bottom line, though ... I really haven't noticed any significant difference between 5-gallon and 10-gallon containers so long as they plants are treated the same regarding fertilizer and irrigation.

And since a friend here in Evansville commercially grows thousands of pounds of both long cordon indeterminates and short stake determinates in hoop houses, two plants per 5-gallon grow-bag filled with coir fiber and fertigated four times per 24 hours, I really dont see why anyone couldn't do the same thing in a 5-gallon pickle bucket with a little care and nurture.

As to where to get used black plastic nursery tubs ... well go to a commercial nursery and buy, borrow or beg them. I do and I sometimes get them filled with commercial bedding mix at the same time for next to nothing.

egghead, good stuff. Welcome to the addicted tomato growing club. I had some left over tomato seedlings that I couldn't throw away and planted them in the same size pots as you. They are beefsteak type indeterminates and am surprised at the size and amount of tomatoes I have on the plants. I don't mind dragging a water can around the yard watering my maters. Get a chance to eyeball my plants and treat if necessary with amendments, organic of course. Enjoy your growing experience. Ami

hoosier, you make a good point. There may be varities that just do adapt better to growing in a container than others.
I will try some of those varities you have nentioned above and see how well they produce. I may even try a couple non watering containers. We are moving next year & I may give up growing in the ground and go strictly to container growing. I have 6 self watering pots shown above.
I have 4 other self watering trough planters I grow lettuce and baby spinich in the spring & then transplant basil and hot pepppers into when the cool stuff is done.
I have 4 topsy turveys that produce real well, Maybe I will try 4 of those black 5 gal pots & I may be able to grow everything I need in containers. if you are so inclined you might want to look into a self watering system. A small batery operated timer & a 30psi pressure reducer & some 1/2" header pipe is all you need to get started. punch 1/4 tubing and drippers of different size
1 gal hr 2 gal hr & you are ready to go. Everything gets watered the same amount for what you have thr timer set for.
Works great...

This is a list of what I'm growing in my containers. Ami
Serenty F2
Sweet Dreams F2
PPPxPP "C"
Spudakee Purple
Brandywine x NAR F2/ 1ea RL, 1ea PL
Norms Peach x Rouge D'Iraq
Brads Black Heart
Black Mystery
Scabitha
Japan Tomato Tree
Ceman
Ludmilla's Pink Heart
Ludmilla's Red Plum
Tom's Yellow Wonder
Stump Of The World
Kellogs Breakfast x AKW F4
Rhoades Heirloom
Orange Strawberry (Beefsteak)
Indian Stripe x Sungold F2
Golden Cherokee
German Head
Unnamed Hungarian Heirloom Ind.
Unnamed Hungarian Heirloom Det.
"Big Chief" Brandywine Sudduth Cross F2
Neves Azorean Pink
KBX
Lucky Cross x Juliet
Oleyar's German
Regina's Yellow
Buckeye State

WOW, I had no idea there are so many types of tomatoes. I'll be around digging for information.

Mike, Nice looking plants. I like the self watering idea, but for me, I already have an extra zone on my irrigatrion system where I am going to run 1/2" poly tubing with 1/4" drops to all my hanging plants on the deck. I might rig up something where I can have a hanging trough along all my railing and plant tomatoes and squash there, sort of build it into the deck.

Ami, Yours look great as well. Hopefully I can get some good results next year like the both of you did.

Thanks

From what I have read and experienced 5 gal containers are the best compromise for my needs. Zone is also an issue. There is a reason why there is a something called a Texas tomato cage and not a Minnesota. It seems highest yield per soil volume is roughly 1/2-2 cubic feet. I also do well in 3 gal containers and I happen to have a healthy black cherry in a 3 gal container. This summer it will not make a bit of difference since it was so cool but I would rather use a 5 gal.

This way I can move it easily and even hang it, use good soil without costing a fortune and stay in the optimal yield range. If you want to use top soil only then I would consider going bigger and when space or mobility is not a priority. A lot of older gardeners do not want to mess with big containers I would think. I also want different varieties. Early, mid late, paste, high yield, high quality, beef steaks and cherries etc. I can't do that with two plants and I only have so much available sun. I can also easily rotate the soil. I typically have fewer blight problems than others report in my area. I don't want to rotate soil in 25 gal containers. The only advantage I see with bigger is getting a bigger plant in some cases.

You don't need more than 5 gal when using the right materials for a good space/soil to yield ratio. The only time I see those big earth boxes is on someone's porch but never in a professional green house.

you are growing 30 different varietes of tomatoes????
How many plants of each?????
What do you do with all those tomatoes????
I have only 12 plants this year. 8 different varities.
I can't eat enough tomatoes & I am eating them every day...

egghead go to this site. This where i buy my seeds.
There are 100s of tomatoes varities.
Hybrids are the easiest to grow... Taste can be good to so so. But they produce more than heirlooms and some are resistant to a lot of "stuff" heirlooms seem to suffer from.
Heirlooms are harder to grow BUT the taste & colors & shapes make them worth it.
I just grow more plants and spend a little more time and $$ spraying them and fussing with them to get the yeilds i desire. I still lose a few plants a year to somthing or other.
http://www.tomatogrowers.com/index.html

mikec4w,

How do you use your Toms? Maybe you can find more places to use them? This week end bruchetta, cucumber and tomato salad and chili used them all up again. Garden sauce recipes can really chew into the supply. If I had a shopping bag worth of Toms they would be gone in a week and that is without drying or freezing. Salsa, chili, bean dip tomato sauce, salads, bruchetta, tomato soups(which freeze well) and on and on.

{{gwi:1380231}}
This is an example of what I grow
{{gwi:1380227}}
and this....
{{gwi:1380232}}
this is an example of what i like to do with them....
{{gwi:1380233}}
{{gwi:1380234}}
My favorite thing in whole world is Heirloom Tomatoes with roasted peppers ( I roast my own at times) with fresh lettuce leaf basil, fresh mozzorella cheese, extra virgin olive oil & Balsamic vinagar. It doesn't get any better than that. I cook with some, and every couple of years I grow a bumper crop of Hybrids ( cooking toms) and make a large patch of tomato sauce.
12, 15, 20 plants at the most. I can eat them all I want from august 1st to about Sept 30th or so when they all seem to be done. Best 2 months of the year!!!!!!
All that other stuff is fine but this is what I live through the rest of the 10 months of the year for.
Funny story.... My parents used to have a small condo in south Florida. As they got older i would Drive them down in the late fall & fly home. Then fly down in the spring and drive them home. My mother would always say, every spring " do you want to buy some oranges to bring home?"
My responce would always be " I can buy the best oranges in the world in NY but I can't buy a good damn Tomato"
I would spend the day or 2 I had driveing around looking for those HUGE florida tomatoes. The kind they never let leave the state beacauce they are toooo ugly. I would but a 25lb box and bring them home and savor every one.....
Now I just savor aug & sept.....

Well done mikec4w. Well done indeed! Fine photos too.You are my kind of person.

Just this week end I was picking some black cherry tomatoes to have bruchetta for lunch. My front lawn not really mowed while may neighbor had his weed whacker out. His wife wanted to know what he wanted from taco bell. He said he didn't care. Thats a grass lover for you.

I have trees in the back yard(which is why I use compact methods and grow on a long south facing strip) so I always have silver maple fire wood and toasted some black bread with a little olive oil. I also sauteed a little garlic and added the tomatoes to the warm cast iron to warm them up to make them juicy then topped with lime basil and olive oil over the bread with a little parmesan cheese. I then used the coals to cook the dried pinto beans for the chili(Zuchetta squash worked out really well here, it holds up well in the chili unlike). Step off the grid a while I say.

I think my parents would eat some off the vine, slice one up for hamburger and put into a salad. No wonder they had surplus.
As long as I stick to solid tomatoes I can do very well with a half dozen plants. Its when it gets to the sauces like salsa and tomato sauce that 50-100 paste tomatoes can be consumed. I also have a food dehydrator now so even a dozen good plants will probably be put to work on a good year.

Anybody using Raybo's Earth-Tainers?
Norm

solanaceae; You are indeed talking my language.
( i have never been to taco bell)
BUT extra virgin olive oil & some good locatelli!!!!
good stuff!!!

I'm planning on using SWC 4 or 5 gallon buckets for most of my plants. I'm not sure that is enough for tomatoes.

I had thought of cutting the tops off of some of the buckets, then stacking the tops above the existing plant.

If taken far enough, I might be able to get 10 gallons total, but this would make the container about 3 feet tall. On a windy balcony, where the overflow from the upstairs neighbor's balcony pours over the edge whenever it rains.

I've also thought about asking someone on the first floor if I can borrow some ground space.

In a SWC, how well does it work with just 5 gallons?

I would consider 5 gallons deep, not shallow water culture, but thats just me :)

A mature tomato plant can easily suck down a gallon a day. you WILL need a controller bucket with only 5 gallons. I use a 20 gallon sterilite tub with netpots/grow rocks. If its outdoors, you need to watch the temps of your reservoir too. Hot roots == BER.

It isn't the bucket size that makes a difference, but how much you are willing to pamper your plants. Look at what hydro-growers do in small spaces with constant, perfect nutes.

I'm testing the limits of the pampering approach with an indoor container garden. I have 10 healthy tomato plants, a pot of basil (and 2 bowls of hyacinth bulbs) on a 6' shelf by a south-facing window.

The plants that I'm watching the most closely are are the Tumbling Toms. I've put three each in two not-particularly- deep 14 and 16 inch diameter dishpans. The plants about 2 feet tall and blooming joyfully so far. (But are they ever going to tumble?)

The oldest plants, a pair of (adorable) Red Robins are in red 7X9 dollar store popcorn buckets, filled not-quite full. I left a wide red rim exposed to refelct light back to the plant might act as a fruiting stimulus. Either it has worked extremely well or these plants are just great little croppers in their own right.

The most surprisingly vigorous grower, a Totem, is loosely staked in a two-gallon pot, the largest pot on the shelf. The open, two-foot wide plant has several "budlet" sites and 7 currently blooming/fruiting trusses. The trusses themselves have from 6-12 blooms each.

The youngest and newest plant in the line-up, an 8" high Sophie's Choice, is also starting to bloom now, too.

I treat these plants like most favored housepets. I visit with them each day, turn their pots to shape their growth, trim back their lower leaves and stroke their blossoms to encourage fruit set. So far, it seems that I will be getting lots of fruit from these "stressed" plants, but I don't know what to expect as far as fruit size and taste. I am pretty sure that Sophie's Choice will be the best of the lot.

The others I think of as toy tomatoes, grown more for fun and experience than for taste. Their beautiful lush appearance is an extra benefit.(I never knew they could be so attractive as houseplants.) If I their fruit tastes any better at all than store-bought, I'll be completely thrilled.

Jan

Indeed you can grow an oak tree in a shot glass if you care for it well enough...

Did someone say 5 gal buckets?

Nice tomatoes timmy1! What variety do you have the best luck with in the 5 gal pails? Any special mix, preparation, or suggestions? Paul

Those are about the happiest looking tomatoes I've seen in a long time, Timmy. You must be pampering them just right.

After reading this thread, I went over to the Sq. Ft. gardening forum, to see what those folks are doing with their tomato squares. Some of them said they were growing better tomatoes in 6-9" of Mel's mix than in the ground or in containers!

Unfortunately I don't recall if they mentioned whether or not the plants were Det or Ind, but it's still an impressive feat.

Jan
Jan

Timmy - i'd love to know how you grow toms so well in those buckets. Never, have I seen plants look like that in them. Please educate us! You rock, dude!

Jill - last year was my first time using the sfg method for toms, and they did fantastic in only 6" of soil! Hands down, the best plants I've ever grown.

EG

Here is a link that might be useful: EG's Gardening blog

I came across a very good article on container gardening.
Very good tables for types of veggies to grow in containers, planting tip, etc. Good article for tomatoes and other vegetables.

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Lamb brothers system of container gardening

Thanks, weetroots. When I run out of (not-yet-made) earthainers I think I'm going to try some embedded grow-bags in planting baskets.

I would love to have containers like theirs. All my vole problems would be solved!

jan

It looks like 5 gallons is definately possible, but what about 5 gallon SWC's? Will the roots get down into the reservoir and ruin it?

Timmy1,
Great pictures, too bad I don't have a scratch and sniff monitor. Do your buckets have one or two plant each?
What do you attach the orange cord to?

Thanks,

Al

I can tell you, the problem is it takes a substantial investment. Those plants are on autopilot.

In other words, the system takes care of itself.

I tell everyone exactly how, problem is half the time it falls on deaf ears and everyone goes back to the old way.

Fertigation my friends. Fertigation.

I love the pictures of food. Ice storm here and I am lurking on the forums I don't usually visit. Thanks for the link to Tomato Growers Supply - many good ideas here.

I live in central Florida and 5 gallon buckets have saved my garden so many times! Whenever there's a hurricane we just move them all into the garage lined up between the cars and hang shop lamps from the ceiling.

timmy1 has two things going for him. One he is growing his plants in a greenhouse and two he is growing hydroponically where the PH of the water and the nutrients are contolled automatically and injected into what is probably a drip irrigation setup. Not your normal backyard setup. More on a commercial scale. So if you got between 5k-10k dollars you can get production and results comparable to his. Not very applicable to the backyard gardener or his pocketbook. Ami

All the discussions and positive reports on container growing
have convinced me to give it a try. So I am making 6 self watering pots out of 6 gallon wine buckets, plan to charge these with Miracle Grow or something similar, and will mount them on my dock by the lake, braced from the dock rail to the stake so the wind will not blow them over.

I'm considering a drip irrigation system but that may have to be next years project--after all, I can dip the water directly from the lake and only need lift it up about 3 feet
to dump it into the buckets.

I plan on having the buckets sit in "saucers" to enlarge the water reservoir up to around 2.5 to 3 gallons, ported into the buckets by holes around the bucket bottom.

I have one big question. What do most of you do about the soil from year to year. Do you change it or just replant,
perhaps with amenments, into the old soil? I can see how this could get a bit pricey if one had to change soil every year.

What do most of you do about the soil from year to year.

You'll get a gazillion strategies on this question. I've been doing 5-gals for a long time, and yearly I dump out each bucket and replace half the soil with new. After 3-4 years this doesn't work any more and the soil must be completely replaced. If you have a compost pile this is your opportunity to put it to good use and expand its size.

Dan

wow

lots of information here

thanks for everyone sharing all your methods

I'm buying more containers this year and was going to order 15 gal pots on line but found Home Depot has 18 gal. storage type bins for the same price. These would save my shipping costs. (yup, I'll drill holes in 'em)
Thing is the HD bins, although having an over all larger capacity, are only 12 inches deep while the online pot is 16 inches deep.
Doesn't depth matter with tomatoes or will a 12inch deep container be enough?

Doesn't depth matter with tomatoes or will a 12inch deep container be enough?

There is a 'container gardening' forum that will open your eyes to a whole new world. These 18 gals will be plenty, and I suspect after visiting that forum, you'll want to buy a few more to make self-watering containers. Fair warning. (Targét has 18 gal Sterilites for 4.99 right now)

Dan

Here is a link on container how-to-do and they carry some interesting products including mycorrhiza. Ami

Here is a link that might be useful: Container How-To

I do just fine with five gallon buckets even though I live in Texas where it is rumored to get a tad warmish in the summer. One does have to watch the plants a little more that a lot more carefully because they will sure dry out in a hurry. A couple of summers ago I came up with a nifty homegrown solution to the question of how to water when you are not at home for a day or two.

I fill up another five gallon bucket with water and maybe a scoop of two of compost to make a fertilizer tea out of the water and I rip a an old towell into strips. Dip one end of the strip into the water bucket and another into the bucket with the tomato plant. The water will wick its way up the towell into the bucket with the plant in it.

Instant irrigation.

I will add that I have always grown cherry and smallish varietals of 'maters and have been thrilled with the production and flavor. I have never tried the bigger types just because I like flavor of smaller 'maters.

oh boy! i saved the shipping and went with the 18 gallon bins from HD. only 3.88 each!!!! I will not embarass myself by telling you how many I decided to buy but let's say they need to order more... Such is the way of the 'mater addict!
thanks for all the great info on a fun thread. now to hunt down the best prices on MG potting mix....

Boy I wish my HD had 18 gals for 3.88...

Coleman, I like your idea. Jerry Baker used to teach to make a wick, and he wrapped his in tinfoil to minimize evaporative loss.

Dan

Nice to see this thread up and running again.... Living in Florida, what I don't like about the 18 gallon HD/LoweÂs containers is that they don't last more than 2 years, UV breakdown and they're DANG heavy when filled. Five gallon white buckets, on the other hand, will last for at least five years, are light, heat resistant, take considerably less container mix, and may out-produce one 18 gallon container. Sure, you have to water daily in the south, life's full of trade-offs...should we ever truly suffer a disaster of epic proportions here in the U.S. I doubt seriously anyone will be able to find an 18 gallon container after a few months but 5 gallon containers are universal and can be found throughout the world.

As the late Paul Harvey would say, good day!

Another good source of containers is nurserys.

Just about every nursery here in Texas has tons of old 5-15 gallon black plastic containers usually stacked up around the dumpster and they will just about always give them away.

Great idea on wrapping the wick in tin foil.