Please do not debate if tomatoes should be prune or not since that I am sure would start a very nasty debate.

Uhhh how is that possible? All the things you list are a form of pruning.

So if I say topping stresses the plant and reduces production and has no role in growing tomatoes others will debate that. But if I say, sure top away if your plants got too tall for your support system, debate will rage. ;)

If I say suckering IS pruning and stresses the plant, reduces production, and leads to fruit sun scald others will debate that and they'd be right too.

Fruit thinning? Do you actually picking and tossing away viable fruit?

Can you clarify exactly what it is you are trying to figure out? Are you assuming that there is some real benefit to any of the pruning methods on your list? Or that there isn't any benefit? There are schools of thought - devoted ones - on both sides of all those issues. Debate naturally follows and has - time and time again. :^)

Dave

The caveat is with suckers that are out of control. I did a one day hatchet job on two Cherokee Purple plants that each had several large suckers. Bad idea. I wound up with thickened main stems, bad leaf curl, and lame looking top growth with tiny leaves and flowers. The tomatoes that appeared looked very dry and were not growing. I thought we had yellow leaf wilt virus.

However, I decided to give them time, and they're bouncing back. In the future, I will not prune out of control suckers all at once. Maybe one at a time, with a few days in between. I see no issues with pulling the flowers off the suckers though.

I get good results if I get the suckers when they are real small. I have two other Cherokee Purple Plants that are well pruned and looking just fine. Got some Mr. Stripy plants with thin vines, huge leaves, and loads of large blossoms that just starting to put fruit on. I also have one Park's Whopper that is over 6 feet long and has yielded 4 vine ripened maters already.

Also pulled off 4 or 5 more lower hanging ones, that were just turning, because a rabbit or something took a bite out of one. argh! BTW, I have had Romas start to blush in July; but have never any ripe tomatoes from the big indeterminate varieties this early.

Perhaps some of these many previous discussions on pruning will be of help to you. The FAQ on Pruning is also included.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Pruning discussions...

digdirt the reason I worded my post in manner I did is because wanted to know how the above list of prunning methods effect tomatoes plant not personal opinion on if prunning was good or bad. As for the previous threads list included in your link you provide I found it not very helpful in answering my over all questions on the subject of tomato pruning. My personal opinions on the subject of
pruning tomatoes is that of undecided. Since I want know how prunning will effect the tomato plants before I do it.
If the side effects of prunning tomato plant do not provide an added benifit. I will mostly likely refrain for pruning them.

nichi controlling plant growth is only a secondary interest on this subject.

wanted to know how the above list of prunning methods effect tomatoes plant not personal opinion on if prunning was good or bad.

Unfortunately personal opinion is what you will get simply because there are too many other variables for there to be one absolutely agreed upon position on pruning. What works for a grower in California won't necessarily work for a grower in New Jersey or Texas and vice versa. Every garden, soil, weather, container vs. in-ground, prevalent diseases and pests in the area, type of support used, and variety differs.

For example as I said above and as reflected in the many previous discussions, there are those who firmly believe in removing all the suckers and will maintain that it reduces plant disease, does not cause any stress to the plant, and will produce larger but less fruit.

Many maintain that a plant should never have more than 1 stem. Another school maintains 2-4 stems. Yet another - as many stems as possible. Much depends on the type of support used - CRW cages vs. stakes vs. Florida weave vs. sprawl, etc.

But there are just as many experienced growers who firmly believe just the opposite, that removing suckers is "plant torture", weakens the plant, makes it more susceptible to disease, and reduces production.

There is even the few who advocate the so-called "organic magic" approach of stripping all leaves from the plant except for the very few at the end of the main stem.

I think I am safe in saying that you will find very few who advocate actively topping a plant except perhaps at seasons end. Same for root pruning - seasons end - maybe. Few who prune blossoms (esp. since blossom drop is already a major problem for most), or actively remove fruit (except for BER). And most will agree that determinate varieties shouldn't be pruned in any way.

As to plant effect - topping indeterminate plants triggers 1-2 new suckers to sprout from the branch axis just below the cut. So now you have 2 main stems where there was only one but both are weaker stems.

Root pruning, depending on the amount done, slowly shuts down and then kills the plant.

Removing blooms or developing fruit has little effect on the plant itself as far as I can tell other than reducing/delaying production - it just makes more in time.

Hope this helps in some way but if what you are seeking is a definitive answer on to prune or not to prune I'm afraid you aren't going to find one because it just doesn't exist - there is no one right way to grow tomatoes. ;) So everytime this question comes up the usual advice is to experiment in your own garden and see which works best for you.

Dave

Indeed.
The general rule for determinate plants is to prune any leaves and "suckers" or side shouts up to the first flower, then do no other pruning.
The same is done to in-determinate. Continued pruning with indetermiate plants is based on how far apart you have the plants spaced - for reasons of light penetration and soil availability/saturation. Therefore, your yield will be of better quality and quantity if you prune:

1. All suckers if plants are spaced 18inches apart.
2. All but the first sucker above the first flower cluster for plants spaced 20inches apart.
3. All but the first two suckers above each set of flowers if your plants are spaced 22inches apart.
4. All but the first three sucker above each set of flowers for plants 24 inches apart, and etc.
   Keep in mind if you're allowing suckers to grow, each has to be above a flower cluster, otherwise it gets removed.
   I'm not sure about "topping," I haven't topped in the past, this year will be my first time. I do suspect that the fruit left on the plant at the time of topping will get bigger by seasons end when compared to plants that were not topped. Topping is done approximately 1 month before the first freeze/season's end.
   I'm only considering topping because I still have enough preserved green tomatoes. Otherwise at first freeze, I will cultivate even the green ones and jar them in/under vinegar and oil. You see, with topping you shouldn't have any green tomatoes by season's end.

Danilo, what did you mean by "if you're allowing suckers to grow, each has to be above a flower cluster, otherwise it gets removed"? Everything above the first flower cluster is above a flower cluster. Maybe you meant suckers that are directly above a flower cluster, with nothing but stem between the flower cluster and the sucker? Also, what's the reasoning behind this? I'm not disagreeing, just trying to learn.

It's confidently written misleading posts like Danilo's that foster the confusion on this topic. Phil, never mind that tip. Indeterminate plants usually set three leaf branches per flower cluster on each healthy branch. If you see a cluster of flowers count leaf branches up or down the vine and you'll find the next set of flowers after the third leaf branch. Each of those three leaf branches will produce a sucker in the node atop the intersection of leaf branch and stem. Depending on the plant, one or more of those suckers might be stronger than the other two. It's usually the one immediately above OR below a flower cluster and you can find expert sites, ag extensions and universities advising to keep the sucker above OR below the flower cluster with little explanation of why. It depends on the plant, but they don't tell you that. If you examine the suckers it's usually obvious which one is growing strong and which ones aren't in each set of three leaf branches. On my Better Boys it was always the one BELOW a flower cluster, not above it. On my Goliath it seemed to change. On SS100s they all deserved to live.

Here's a good blurb from the integrated pest management course at UC Davis. Read between the lines with a little common sense.

• "Pruning is not always necessary. However, when pruning your tomatoes, remember these main points:

Plants with two or more stems produce more tomatoes with better foliage protection from the sun than plants with one stem (and so on). However, tomatoes pruned to one leader will bear earlier but with less yield overall. Choose the stems you want to keep (no mention of above or below flowers) and pinch out the others as they develop. A dense leaf canopy may reduce the incidence of black mold and cracking but may increase the incidence of other fruit molds such as gray mold.

Severe pruning to one stem will reduce your total crop greatly and also is likely to increase the incidence of some diseases or disorders. (and three is probably better than two and four is probably better than...)

Before removing suckers or side shoots on a tomato plant, wait until two leaves develop and pinch above them."

Bold and italics mine.

They're basically discouraging pruning if you read that right; and advising Missouri pruning, leaving a couple leaves on each sucker, if you must.

No offense Danilo, but I disagree with just about everything you wrote. "Suckers, side shoots and first flowers" are all part of indeterminate growth habits, so using them as descriptors of when to prune determinates is confusing. Determinates make many "first" flowers at once on several different branches and ripen fruit in a concentrated time frame due to this flowering habit. Each branch terminates growth after flowering, so every branch is key to production. The only reason to prune the lower branches is to keep them off the soil and in my experience all that does is make room for next level branches to reach down to the soil anyway. Cage them and leave them alone for best results, imo. Prune off the unhealthy parts later.

While there may some common sense in keeping more branches with more space, the 18,20,22,24 inch advice is odd and... sigh... probably wrong more often than it could possibly be right. There's a few thousand varieties of indeterminate plants. A few thousand different growing conditions. A simple set of exact spacing and pruning rules cannot possibly apply to all varieties, all soils and soiless mixes, all watering and fertilizing schedules, all climates and all space situations, and all wants of individual growers. I have identical plants spaced @ 24" pruned to two three and four branches and un-pruned ones are the healthiest and most productive of the lot. I have a friend who grows Trust and Blitz in intensively planted greenhouses one stem per plant, one plant every 12 inches, they go up 20 feet on a string attached to a wire attached to poles that are leaned over for harvesting. There's no set rules for pruning, and countless different situations call for countless different approaches, but the more I fiddle and learn the less impressed I am with outdoor pruning. I like the fact that I can get a plant to produce a little earlier by pruning it. I like the fact that I can fit more plants in a given space. I don't care for the lowered production, the missing leaf cover, the weakened plants with lowered resistances, and mostly, extra unnecessary work. I'm lazy. I'm surprised I found the energy to respond to this topic again. And sadly, I don't think I added anything to what Dave said before the waters got muddied again. Just remember every sucker you butcher was trying to feed someone. :)

Phil,
"Maybe you meant suckers that are directly above a flower cluster, with nothing but stem between the flower cluster and the sucker?" --> Definately remove these/those ones!! - they will rob the fruit of much needed nutrients. With that being said, this nutrient robbing idea applies to the rest of the plant. When I said:
"Keep in mind if you're allowing suckers to grow, each has to be above a flower cluster, otherwise it gets removed."
I meant:
Your first sucker is allowed to grow from a node above the first flower branch. Your second sucker is allowed to grow from a node above the second flower branch (on the main stem). Your third sucker is allowed to grow above the third flower branch and etc. That is, don't allow two suckers to grow between flower branches, hope this clarifies.

Mojavebob, when you say,
"...extra unnecessary work," I'm pretty sure you're referring to the act of breaking off branches, but I'm not sure what's more work, breaking off small branches or tieing long ones.
P.S. All points mentioned in your last entry were well taken.
P.S.S. I'd like to know the means by which you support all those branches. -> Post on each end of the tomato rows with string from post to post, then tie the branches to the string?

Well for the pruning experiment I used tall posts with a wire run overhead and a given number of strings dropped to each plant. If I wanted two leads two strings were dropped, three leads three strings, etc. I then attached the growing stems to the strings with clips. Anything without a string got snipped. Having the strings helped organize the experiment. Yes, it's time consuming to track the suckers and prune them. Like most of us, I have limited time for this hobby. It got ahead of me with about 30 plants being suckered. Only 18 were in my test. I couldn't imagine doing that on an acre, or even half an acre. That is labor intensive growing and it decreases production.

My determinates had minimal support and ended up bushy sprawls on the mulch. 12 unpruned sprawling determinate plants outproduced the remaining 40 something mostly pruned indeterminate plants by a decent margin. I'll cage them in that garden next year to fit more in.

I had 8 plants in a Florida weave that became a mess, but I was pretty clueless. I think I have a better feel for it after a year of mistakes and following advice around here.

I used concrete reinforcing wire bent into cages and this was, for me, the best way to support the plants. I'm investing in a big roll for next year. As much as possible will be caged, very little pruning, very low maintenance, and I suspect my results will be much better. Time spent in the garden will be better spent on disease control and foliar feeding rather than amputating healthy branches.

Check out baygrower's caged rows. That works for me, and I doubt those are suckered much.

Danilo said "Definately remove these/those ones!! - they will rob the fruit of much needed nutrients. "

Can you show me some research - published by a reputable university - that backs up this assertion?

Yeah the claim that so-called suckers "rob" nutrients from the rest of the plant is an old wives tale and long established as untrue. Yet for some reason it still seems to pop its head up now and then.

In truth some of the best production on the plant comes from the perfectly normal "sucker" branches when left to do their thing and the leaves on them provide additional nutrients to the plant rather than rob them. One needs only to let them grow to see the proof.

And if one uses Florida weave or real tomato cages (5-6" CRW) they are no more work or difficulty to contain/support than is any other part of the plant.

Dave

O.K. Boys,
I think I've got it. Thanks for the feed-back and valuable information. So next year; less plants, less work and more cages.

Danilo,

The only reason I took a little issue here is because you were so exact in your instructions. I'm glad you weren't offended. I would have been disappointed in myself if it went that way. Had you said "here's an approach that you might consider" I probably wouldn't have responded.

Next year I intend on pruning 15 specific plants to two stems, trained to strings, for a specific purpose, based on this year's results. I found two probable advantages to heavy pruning (and a host of disadvantages). They are earliness and space utilization. So where those two things are priorities, pruning makes sense to me.

Those plants will be the lower yielding, larger fruited varieties, with bad reported results in my conditions, that I am too stubborn not to try, because I have the seed already and really like the fruit.

I've mapped out a plan for 120 plants -- 105 caged and 15 on the strings. I may go with a cheaper way than cages if I have to, but I already constructed the post and wire arrangement for pruned plants, so now I need a use for it. ;)

I guess I just wanted to point out that pruning isn't always a bad idea. It just isn't the way to grow tomatoes, as so many sites claim.

I all found that people in favor of pruning can't back up any of there supposed benefits with facts.
I was reading an article from old news paper about gardener on tour describing tomato
pruning as technique mainly of English green house tomato culture. from 1800's

The problem with this so call debate is that there are so many variables which people ALWAYS seems to leave out then expect a clear cut answer. That's just like going into the doctor and saying I have a cough, please tell me what's wrong with me or saying "the internet is down". Maybe I will take some time and draw out a visio diagram to end this debate.

You go Johnny,
but I think we've exhausted it. What else is there to know?

I'm not sure why this topic brings out so much passion, other than how sad it is to see someone spreading falsehoods and newbies thinking they are helping, when they butcher their plants.

As Dave suggests, there is no cookie cutter way to be perfect and experimentation for your own set up really is best.

There are studies that do prove larger and earlier fruit but the cost is total yield. Look em up, they exist. My experience coincides with this.

Thinking that the support system of choice, or growing media and its size, or the ultimate size of the plant, or the spacing, or the quantity of plants vs. time to tend them, as irrelevant, is well, boneheaded.

When we had big gardens, staked, and planted closely, having more than 3 or so stems, would wind up in a mess. Plain and simple. We also topped when things got inconvenient not to, or let them flop so long as they didnt kink too badly. ItÂs a judgement call.

If you want to sprawl, its kind of a pain and probably detrimental to do any pruning other than to make sure of decent footing.

If you have nice big cages and spacing of 3 - 4' or so, you donÂt need to prune at all but there may be some benefits to moderate pruning, by improving air flow and more quickly noticing and treating any pest or disease problem.

If you use Florida Weave and 3' plant spacing, with 4' row spacing, you will want to do some moderate pruning and lots of tucking.

If you are trying to grow a plant, known to be large, in a less than ideally sized container, I promise, you will be better off pruning than not. IMO you will have less trouble with BER on pruned container plants than unpruned.

I "think" pruned tomato plants develop larger leaves than unpruned plants of the same variety. I "know" plants grown in shade do. Therefore, the plants adapt to their environment. They are very durable, if healthy and pest free.

I donÂt know about above or below flower clusters, I used to prune that way but donÂt any more.

Now, I estimate how many stems I want in the total package, based on the ultimate plant size for the variety and the growing culture IÂm using, leave all the main stem suckers from the very bottom, until I get to that number and prune everything else off. ItÂs a modified version of Charles H. WiberÂs method and IÂm very happy with it. Time to ripes does definitely seem longer which is frustrating but size is not noticeably hurt and quality and quantity are much improved.

I mulch, so I donÂt prune leaves any more but if I thought it would help for any reason, I would.

Back to what Dave advised, try different things, I hope you have as much fun as I have :-)

This is some great info. If I can get earlier maters by pruning, you can bet that I'm going to try pruning with one of my plants next year, and leave the rest alone.

I guess this also answers the question I had. My biggest plant (Beefmaster) quickly outgrew the 4' cage I had it in, and is now approaching the tops of the two 8' posts I added. I haven't pruned it a bit, and thought maybe I should start so it doesn't get too top heavy. From what I understand after reading this, I should just leave it be, and I guess just let it flop over at the top. There are a good 6 vines over 7' already, and I have a feeling it's going to be a mess at some point. Yes, I'm a rookie.

Jeremy,
Sounds like you may have an ideal plant(s) to top, when the time is right of course. When is season's end in your parts?

I prune using the Missouri method where the sucker is allowed to grow two leaves before being pinched.

It trains the plant to a single stem. I then grow this stem vertically up a string hanging from a 'swing set' trellis.

Everything below the first fruit truss gets removed.

Next year, I'll be using the sucker right below the first fruit truss as a 2nd main stem, and training them in a big vertical V.

I have 12 plants where a normal person would grow two and a half conventional tomato bushes.

Its about yield per square foot per growing day, as far as I'm concerned. I'm lazy. I want the most tomatoes for the least work.

I'm in Denver, which I understand lasts til late September or early October. I'd be interested to learn more about the pros/cons of topping for someone in my situation.

~~~ I'd be interested to learn more about the pros/cons of topping for someone in my situation. ~~~

If you have the time and space, its probably a lot better to to guide those vines down to a manageable height and add more support, if you can do it with out too much kinking.

OTOH, all season, I serve those plants, by fall its time for them to serve me.

If it takes 6-8 weeks to grow a ripe tomato, I don't see much point in letting unproductive parts of the plant cost me much trouble.

Course, it can't serve you if you've already removed all the parts that can produce. Topping below the last empty fruit truss of the entire plant isn't gonna help much :-)

My understanding would be to top a month out from first frost to encourage the fruit already set to ripen.

• "I have 12 plants where a normal person would grow two and a half conventional tomato bushes.

Its about yield per square foot per growing day, as far as I'm concerned. I'm lazy. I want the most tomatoes for the least work."

Hi Shelby. I did some experimenting with this stuff this year and your comments didn't ring true to my experience. I spaced untouched plants 2 feet apart. There's hundreds of photos around here of huge plants caged in earthtainers at that distance, It was probably a little tight, but I lacked space to give them a full three feet, and they did fine. So you would have to plant 3 inches apart to get 12 where many of us get 2 and a half caged plants. Or just picture 9 plants in one of Raybo's 31 gallon tainers. It's not going to work.

I agree yield is important and that's why I experimented. I couldn't count the cherries, but here's some numbers from my difficult conditions. A Goliath pruned to three stems produced 9 tomatoes and shut down in the high heat after being much earlier and looking like the sure winner. Right next to it one untouched pumped out 22 tomatoes and still has one ripening. Two Better Boys trained to two stems, Missouri style, produced 15 tomatoes between them. Two untouched in the same soil with the same water and fertilizer have produced 56 tomatoes and have another 7 or 8 still ripening. All these plants are healthy and I'm hoping for a fall crop. The pruned ones have 2 or 3 growing tips for fall production. I will be lucky to get a couple tomatoes. The unpruned ones will probably put out a dozen each. I expect four to five times as much fruit from the unpruned plants in the end of this experiment.

So for being lazy, well, training a dozen plants to two stems Missouri pruned is about 1000 times more work than putting three in cages and watching them outproduce the twelve chopped up ones. Time spent keeping the stems lonely could be spent hunting caterpillars, improving the soil, spraying fungicides and kelp or whatever. I couldn't take as good a care of my plants as I wanted with the time available this year specifically because I committed to the time consuming pruning experiment.

training a dozen plants to two stems Missouri pruned is about 1000 times more work than putting three in cages and watching them outproduce the twelve chopped up ones.

Amen. Now multiply that 1000 times more work for a dozen plants by say 50 plants. Or 100 plants, which many grow.

ANY form of pruning, topping, suckering, etc. quickly reaches the point of no benefits/returns once you have more than maybe 5 plants.

Dave

Sorry for being a touch off topic, but is it common to start guiding down after the vines reach a certain height, such as the tops of posts? My two 8' posts are about 18 inches apart, so the vines that went up one could go down the other I'd suppose. Of course I could go the other route of topping it a month before it feezes. Obviously I'd prefer the method that provides the most maters.

Thanks to everyone for their replies, I'm enjoying learning more about this.

This was an excellent thread with lots of good advice. I like to grow Beefsteak varieties. I have grown them all different ways. My goal is large, round fruit. I do not care about yield. I like them on BLTs and Tomato Burgers. I do not can them anymore; excess we can not eat goes to our local food food pantry.

My experience is if I cull and prune, I get fewer, larger, rounder, faster ripening, fruit. If I do not, I get a lots of flat, lobed, split, smaller tomtoes. This is the first year I have had lots of time to do things like reading this forum. I learned a lot of knew things from this thread. It was easy to follow because I have lots of hands on experience. The last time I studied up on this was about 20 years ago; and pruning to one stem and staking was the advice I got; especially from old timers. I was taught that suckers would suck the nutrients out of the plant. :)

As an aside, I have now figured out that my problem plants likely got exposed to weed & feed; and my heavy pruning probably had nothing to do with it.

Next season, I plan to try different approaches within the same variety, and see what happens.