Nitrogen is likely well leeched out, but the rest are probably fine.

Justaguy,

Thank you for your response. Reading posts here, I have come to respect your knowledge very much. My Toms have miraculously survived zero sun and constant rain for over a month. They look healthy, but they are small - about 2.5 feet tall. This is not unusual for Portland, Maine in early July. I've never had a tomato plant over 5 feet tall even at the end of August.

I have read so much about how too much Nitrogen can result in big, bushy plants that produce leaf growth rather than fruit. My Toms are small but very leafy and all 36 of my plants have flowers. In fact, they have had flowers since before the rains came a month ago - its just that very few of the flowers have set fruit.

What would you suggest I do with what I have? MG, Neptune's Harvest Kelp and Tomato-Tone.

Hey Fred, Im in Augusta, ME. My plants are actually quite tall, and most have blossoms, but not an abundance of them. I have a variety of plants, some in the garden, some in containers. Only my New Girl and one of my Wonder Lights have any fruit set. I'm planning on giving them all a dose of Miracle Grow this weekend, I figure the nutrients must be leached out of the soil at least to some extent.

Hi, Fred. I thought you were supposed to add fertilizer about every two weeks. I live in sunny south Alabama. My 3 Park's Whopper and one Early Girl are flourishing. I keep count as I pick. Yesterday, the total was 432, with at least 200-300 on the vines. Don't be afraid to add stuff! I think all of us would be surprised at what tomato plants could do, with an unlimited amount of perfect soil and plenty of sunlight!

It depends. Do you use chemical fertilizers or are yo using organic? I dont know what kind of soil you have but I will give you a little chemistry lesson - as far as my local is concerned.

In my area I have some pretty hard clay. Clay tends to have a negative charge to it. Chemical fertilizers also have a negative charge. So the two repell each other. When it rains or when you water the fertilizer gets washed away. Organic fertilizers have a postive charge. That means that they are attracted to and stick to the clay particles like the opposite ends of a magnet. Plants produce a hydrogen ion which breaks the plant/fertilizer bond allowing the plant to take up the nutrients it needs from the soil.

Next, it is impossible to burn plants with organic fertiizer. You can waste your money by using too much, but you will not harm your plants like you will with chemical fertiizers, even if you use more than you need. Chemical fertilizers do absolutely nothing for the microbial population that live in the soil - absolutely nothing. Organic fertilizers on the other hand provide trace elements that acutally feed the microbes in the soil. This is very important to understand.

Let's put the horse in front of the carriage. We must stop thinking of feeding our plants with fertilizers and start thinking about feedintg the microbes that are in the soil. Healthy soil feeds plants not fertilizer. It is also not about turning over the soil (tilling) that keeps your soil fluffy and soft. It is the level of microbial matter that improves the soil's tilth. It cannot be stressed enough that we must feed the microbes in the soil. If you analyze a teaspoon of good healthy soil you will find that it is made up of almost half of microbial matter. This is the stuff that turns dead hardpan soil into lifegiving soil - not fertilizers. If we understand the science of soil we will come to understand that chemical fertilizers do not provide any energy to the microbes in the soil - none. Let me ask this, why is compost so beneficial to the soil? It is because of all the mibrobial matter that is in compost - duh. Why then do we reach for the chemical fertilzers when we want to feed our plants? Get rid of the chemical fertizers and switch (100%) to organic fertilizers. Go 100% organic.

This is why I use one tablespoon of epsom salt in a gallon of water each month. It is why I use fish emulsion and liquid seaweed monthly. It is why I use aerated compost tea three times during the season. Once about two weeks after planting, again when the fruit starts to set and again in around late July. It is why I spray my garden with one tablespoon of molassas in a galon of water every month. Molassas is one of the BEST micorobial foods known to man. All these things feed the microbes in the soil which improves tilth, water retention, nutriants that are available to the plants, and improves pest resistence. Also, did you know that nothing will cure a spider mite problem like weekly (even daily if necesary) sprayings of liquid seaweed. Remember, you cannot overdo it when you use organic materials. Forget Marigolds, use liquid seaweed; it takes care of the mites AND feeds the soil.

My strategy: At the beginning of the season I place a tablespoon of epsom salt, along with a handfull (remember you will not burn your plants with organic fertilizers) of E.B Stone's organic fertilizer in the bottom of each plant hole. Mix this with some soil and then plant the seedling right over it. This is all the fertilizer I need because I have great soil that is healthy and full of microbial life which the plants love. Lastly, I use the other things I have already mentioned during the growing season.

One final comment about tilling. Tilling allows us to move a lot of earth quickly. It allows us to incorporate a large amount of organic matter into an area quickly. But it also brings healthy bacteria and fungi to the surface where they are exposed to the air, oxidize and die. It allows weed seeds that would never see the light of day to come to the surface and germinate. Tilling the soil when it is dry only serves to pulverize the soil, destoying its structure. Tilling when it is too wet, well, you cannot till soil when it is too wet. If you till in order to quickly make a garden spot, make this the only time you till. Make sure the soil is damp, put in a ton of organic matter, go as deep as you can and then let the soil alone. Feed the microbes and you will always have fluffy wonderful soil. As bacteria live and then die their dead bodies add to the volume of organic material in the soil, which is exactly what you want, right? Feed your soil, not the plants.

I am a huge capitalist. I love the American way of life. I love the opportunities we enjoy in this, the greatest nation on earth. But do not let the slick advertising by chemical fertilizer companies take your thinking away from the what is really important for healthy plants - healthy soil. Fertilizers do not improve soil health, organic matter and microbes (like bacteria and fungi) do.

Think microbes, think microbes, think microbes - not fertilizer. I know I was long-winded here. But it seemed appropriate.

Tom

Tom, I deeply appreciate your very informative post. I learned a lot from it, and intend to use the your strategy, at least to some extent.

I start out by breaking up the soil, at least a 5 foot radius, and about a foot deep (Because that is where the topsoil ends). I add quite a bit of well-rotted leaves, along with some soil from the forest sub floor. I add a lot of rabbit manure, along with some of the redworms and stuff that grow in it. Throw in some epsom salt, and (probably unnecessarily!) some commercial fertilizer. I mix all this stuff really well, breaking up clods, and remove most of the live weed and grass parts I can find. Add water as needed.

I space the plants about 5 feet apart, which is much too close, because the vines grow at least 10 or 12 feet long, and it is difficult to tend and harvest without damaging the plants.

I sprinkle epsom salt on the soil every couple of weeks, and a little 6-10-10 (not needed?). Maybe every 3 weeks, I throw a little more rabbit fertilizer on the soil.

The latest count, yesterday, was 568, 3 inch average sized, tasty tomatoes, from 4 tomato plants. I discarded 5 or less because of critter damage.

Tom- I can't never get enough of this kind of knowledge. Thanks so much for contributing what you know and for reminding me to be more mindful in my gardening ways.
I wish I could have all of your gardening tips collected neatly in one easy spot for constant reference...until someday it becomes second nature to me.

Tom,

Excellent information! Thank you. I did amend my soil with Tomato-Tone and Kelp Emulsion. Youve convinced me to add molasses and Epsom salt to my regimen of care. - Fred

NO problem people.

Hey Pink, have you ever thought of using cages in stead of letting the tomatoes sprawl on the ground? In that same 5ft of space you could get aanother plant. The fruit does not sit on the ground where slugs or rot get to them and it is much easier to get to the fruit as you do not have to worry about stepping on the plants. If not cages then use some bamboo poles with string between the poles that keep the plants up off the ground. I think it makes growing tomatoes an whole lot easier.

Tom

Yes, avid hiker. Actually, I do use poles with string to support the vines. A cage is much too confining, in my opinion. I have found that if each vine is kept a few inches from other vines, and generally growing upwards, it will grow and produce fruit. Other vines will branch off this one--support these vines as well, to keep them in fresh air and sunlight, so they also can produce.

This requires a lot of string and time, and space. Each plant has several vines that are 10-12 feet long, plus smaller branches off the main vines. How do you deal with this with mere 5 foot spacing? What will it all look 4 months from now, when the frost finally kills them?

I hope to be able to post some pictures here tomorrow.

Pickinpink,

I like the CRW cages a lot. I made mine about 10 years ago and they are still in great shape. I place them about 3ft (on center) apart. Since the plant is supported by the cage all the fruit just hangs inside. They are easy to see and pick. Stepping on the ground is minimized because each plant is contained in such a limited area. Air circulation is great and watering is done at one place per plant.

But your plants must have lots of nice root locations. I can see how that would be very beneficial for plant health and fruit production. I would love to do an experiment to see if either method produces different yields. However, I have such a small yard that I have to maximize the area. Growig in cages allws me to grow eight plants and a few peppers. I am seriously considering taking out the lawn for next season. This would give me a new garden space that is about 20'x50', in additionto what I have now. I could use the current plot for some squash, peppers, lettuce, and carrots. Then I could do some real gardening. I have had some tremendous yields in the past with just six to eight plants. I cannot imagin how much fruit I could produce with nearly 30 plants. Well, I can dream can't I. It would be iterestig to see tomato plants growing like a mellon. But when you say 5' are you talking in diameter or 5' in each direction from center, meaning 10' diameter?

Depending on how you arranged the space I figure you would get either one or two plants in a garden space of 8 1/2ft x 11 1/2ft. I divided a regular piece of paper into 1' squares and then figured how many plants I would get in that area if you let the plants sprawl. I then use the same plot and determin that if I used one cage every 3' on center I could put 12 cages in the same area. If I had an acre of land to grow on I might consider trying an experiment, but with my little garden plot if figure cages give me more bang for my area. Plus I think maintenance is a lot easier because every plant is contained in a single location. This allows me to do all my maintenance in one spot for each plant.

avid hiker,

I will find out what CRW cages look like. Are they the wire fences that are rolled into a circle? I will look at some pictures on this site.

3ft OC seems much too close to me. I use a shovel to measure minimum spacing, probably about 5ft. Yes, I do prepare the soil a minimum of a 10ft circle for each plant, but it may overlap other plants' circles. You do not have to work the entire circle initially. You can come back and widen the circle later.

Could you increase the spacing between your cages, putting the lettuce, carrots, etc., in between them?

Cages are certainly much, much easer than using my strategy of maximizing the growth of each vine by tying. However, this method greatly increases the volume of space for air and sun. Right now, my 4 plants are pretty thick in about 50 cubic yards of space. 3 to 20 tomatoes are in each cubic yard, even though we are past peak production.

Dig up your yard, if you have enough time to tend a bigger garden! I bought a small farm, so the space is plentiful. Since I do all the digging by hand, well...

pickinpink,

Absolutely give the plants more space. That would give the root system of each plant a lot of room. Personally I have found that my plants do just fine in the space they are currnetly in. I don't save seed so I am not concerned about cross polination. Although, If I am as impressed with some of the varieties I am planning on growing next season I might consider saving seed on my own. Right now I am content on letting those who do that sort of thing for a living do it for me.

But, getting back to planting. If the soil is healthy and you properly prepare each hole when you plant I would think the plants would thrive on 4'OC. But maybe my thinking is skewed because of my small yard. I am always trying to maximize the area so I might be pushing it too hard by going 3'. A good organic fertilzer does not get washed out of the soil like the chemical ones do. It does not appear that my plants have had to compete for nutrients. Mulching is another thing that is much easier to do when the plants are up off the ground. Mulching significanty aids with moisture retention and temperature regulation, not to mention the additional CO2 that is released into the air as the mulch decomposes. For those who live in hot climates water regulation and temp control this is very important. Even though tomato plants like the heat their roots do not. The roots like a nice comfortable cool temperature where the soil is nice and moist (not dry or soggy). In a hot climate it is hard to maintain this situation if you do not mulch. I love grass clippings for this. They decompose fast, they do a great job of creating a nice tight cap for the soil and they provide lots of good nitrogen for the microbes in the soil. There are just so many good reasons to mulch - and I have not even mentioned weed control.

My cages are made from the concret reinforcing wire (CRW) that you buy at any box store or concrete yard. I bought a 6" mesh that came on a 5'x50' roll (I think it was 50'). I think I got eight cages out of the roll. It takes 5 1/2' of material to make a 21" diameter cage. Unfortunaetly there is no way to avoid 6" of wasted material for every cage you make. A mesh with smaller openings would reduce the amount of waste but it also reduces the size of the openings. Forget about getting a smallier mesh size thinking that you will cut larger openings with wire cutters. I promise you that: 1. You will not even get an extra cage by saving all the waste, unless you are talking about a roll that is about 100' long. And I wouldn't begin to think about trying to muscle around a 100' roll of that stuff, 2. if you try and cut larger openings from using smaller mesh you will cut up your hands everytime you rach inside to get a tomato. There is simply no way to smooth the razor sharp edges you get when you cut off the tines. Just go with the larger mesh size and accept the 6" of waste for each cage. I did cut one of my cages into 1 1/2' bands in order to make an extension ring for the top of the other cages. In most years my plants outgrow the 5' height by August. I attach the extenion to the top of each of the cages using heavy duty nylon zip ties you can get almost anywhere. If for some reason I want to take the extension off I simply get out the scissors and remove them. The 6"x6" mesh is just wonderful. I can get in there and take out even the biggest tomato. I would guess I have another 10 years left on the ones I already have. Actually I am thinking of making a few more, except this time I am looking into making them square cages. That way I can fold them togtether and store them much more compactly. With the CRW that comes on the roll you can make the diameter of the cage any size you want. You said you wanted to give the plants more room, well you could do that. I don't think you need to go wider than 21" but you could if you wanted. It's just that at some point if the inside diameter gets too big you might as well just let them sprawl. One additional thought... you don't have to change all your plants to cages next year. CRW comes in sheets as well (I think the sheets are 5'x8', but don't quote me on that.) You could start by doing three or four and then decide if there really is a benefit to going to the time and expense of using cages on a larger scale. Plant them at different distnaces and see if it really does impact the health of the plants. It is my guess that most people who have good soil find the plants do just fine at 3' apart. I don't think I have ever heard of anyone who went from sprawl to cages going back to letting them sprawl. Mainly because you can put so many more tomato plants in the same area.

I know I am being long-winded here. But if you decide to use some cages next year be sure to make the hole that surrounds your plant almost as nearly as big as the diameter of the cage. The cage itself should sit up outside the hole. Make the hole two or three inches deep with the the tomato planted on a mound in the center where the base of the stem is at the level of the main garden. That way when you water you can fill up the hole and never have to worry about the plant stem sitting in a pool of water. Tomatoes do not like it when the water floods all around the stem. This can cause fungus and other problems. It also allows for you to do deep watering occasionally which helps the plant to develop deep roots. Of course, the deeper the better. Finally, be sure to get some 1/4" or 1/2" rebar or some ordinary stakes to anchor the cages. I use three evenly spaced. If your plants get as large as mine do they can fall over due to weight or a strong wind. This can damage (even kill) the plant. In ten years I have never had one fall over when they were staked to the ground.

Hope this helps.

Tom

Thanks, Tom.

I do intend to use at least one cage next year. I recently found a piece of galvanized fencing with 6" holes, 5', about big enough to make about a 36" circle, good for a trial.

Sounds great. I would still recommend that you not go larger than 28". 28is a really big diameter. Plenty big to give the plant lots of room.

Tom

Fred in Maine,

I'm sorry I hijacked your thread, which started out as follows:

"I started this season with good soil - plenty of composted cow & horse poop in raised beds. My raised beds seem to have excellent draining qualities, especially my two Square Foot Garden beds (1/3 compost, 1/3 peat moss, 1/3 vermiculite).
Weve had 4 weeks of rain here in Maine that "might" be finally ending. Today (July 3) the sun appeared for about the first time since June 5th.

Now Im wondering if the monsoons might have leached significant amounts of NPK and micro-nutrients out of my raised beds. Should I add anything?

I have Miracle Grow tomato formula, Neptunes Harvest Kelp concentrate, and Espomas Tomato-Tone.

Thanks, Fred"

Anyway, I wouldn't be afraid to add all three ingredients, if you haven't already.

Tom,

It seems that you and I are trying to do two different things. Because of limited space, you use cages. This also makes maintenance and harvesting much easer. I try to grow a lot of tomatoes from a few plants. I just enjoy doing it my way. However, you have convinced me to try a cage next year.

The latest count, yesterday, was 638 delicious tomatoes from 4 plants. Roughly 90% are virtually blemish-free. More than 99% were eatable (threw away less than 5 because of critter damage). No ber on any. Average diameter is at least 3 inches. Would caged plants produce this many tomatoes? The plants fill an area about 13X20'. Production is far from being over. I am considering building a tent over them in October to prevent frostbite. The last time I did this, when they froze in February, those 4 plants had produced about 1300.

Avid,

Thank you. Your advice about Epsom Salts is most appreciated. I watered with Epsom Salts three days ago.

Something magical happened.

Three days later, flowers that were doing nothing for weeks have suddenly started to set fruit. Existing small green fruit got much larger.

This needed boost to my garden has also been a needed boost to my morale. I finally feel optimistic that my garden will thrive.

Thank you - your advice came just in time.

What you say about feeding microbes makes so much sense. This weekend, I'll be watering with 1 TBSP of molasses per gallon of H2O.

Fred in Maine (Zone 5)