I don't know quite what to say Dave.

The plants in the first picture look rather pathetic to me compared to the counterparts for some that you showed that weren't pruned. And you also noted the number of clusters/fruit #'s were greater with the unpruned plants.

Are you suggesting that folks who want the earliest fruits should prune as you did?

What am I missing? ( smile)

Carolyn

No offense Dave, but I have to agree that the tree patch looks pretty anemic. But you knew it would be to a degree just because of all the shade so I guess that comes as no surprise.

If it were me, you know I wouldn't have chosen to prune those much less to the Wilbur extreme. I'd opt for your "neglected" plants and the production amounts you'll get from them every time. ;)

However, given the growing conditions you have to work with I honestly don't think you can draw any conclusions that would hold up to beneficial replication. But as long as you are enjoying the experiment, that's all that matters. ;)

Dave

~~~ The plants in the first picture look rather pathetic to me compared to the counterparts for some that you showed that weren't pruned. And you also noted the number of clusters/fruit #'s were greater with the unpruned plants. ~~~

Some of that is just a difference in lighting and scale but yes, judging just the plant, the lessor and unpruned are much more robust looking plants. Fruit size and timelyness though are telling a different story.

I know it looks like sun scald would be a major problem but the main patch is shaded by a tree during the hottest part of the day and I've only had to cut out part of the top of one Jet Star from it. The tree is also in major competition with these plants and I'm sure contributing to their less than optimal appearence.

~~~ Are you suggesting that folks who want the earliest fruits should prune as you did? ~~~

I'm not suggesting that anyone do anything other than try new things and see for themselves what the outcomes are and to have some fun doing it :-)

~~~ However, given the growing conditions you have to work with I honestly don't think you can draw any conclusions that would hold up to beneficial replication. ~~~

One of the criterion in our new home search is a place for a more conventional garden site. Any sort of true testing needs many more specimens, side by side. Not a luxury I have currently.

~~~ But as long as you are enjoying the experiment, that's all that matters. ;) ~~~

Yep :-)

I don't know, but, I have very large trees all around me with mature forest and only get 3-4 hours of direct sun light a day. And my plants look 10x better than whats in those pictures. You my friend are in need of something? Water,sun,fert,compost- those plants look pretty weak. My guess is they need some serious fert. like 40-0-0 for starts?

Problem is all them wood chips. Wood is not good for mulching toms, to much acid.

drtomato,

I know it may seem hard to believe but I've visited 4 other gardens this week. All owned by experienced gardeners, 1 of whom has taken master gardening courses and been in gardening clubs for decades, she is often called the Plant Lady. I gave her, her first ripe toms of the yr. the other day. No one I know, near me, has ripes yet. My in ground tom plants look better than all but one and my potted plants beat them all by a bunch.

It has been a challenging spring and growing in the dripline of a mature oak has definately added to those challenges but apparently I'm doing OK. My garden meter does not confirm your suspicion of too much acid.

Agreeing with the " have fun experimenting"!!!!!

Let us know when you have gotten a true set of control and variables regarding the taste between the two,.... according to you.

Congratulations on your find! One of my favorites of this "hobby".

I helped a friend dig a large fish-aquatic pond a couple of years ago.
After it was excavated to a depth of +4' it sat idle for a season and that spring he found volunteer maters growing.
He called these his hierlooms. I guess they could have blown in or been carried in that fall or winter or they could have laid dormant somewhere in the strata. Interesting stuff tho.

Tom

I think some of you are confusing the pictures. The first pic is not the pruned plants nor pruned according to Wilber method. That pic is the one with very little pruning . Dave, why do you say you give them much less feed--why aren't you fertilizing them? They are competing for nutrients with all the tree roots.

These pics show that pruned or unpruned plants need sun. Dave has a beautiful yard though--I have always looked around his other pics and admired the setting--so peaceful and parklike. He's knows it is super shady and just works around it.

Dave, I was wondering is there a tiny bit of full sun anywhere? Even on a deck perhaps? If there were I think I would try an earthbox or Josh's homemade ones. I think that one box in sun (unpruned) would give a yield equal to many of your plants grown in shade.

Pruning does induce earliness--I have read that somewhere but don't have the link.

Wilber says his method of pruning to 18 stems/branches does not induce earliness , he is only interested in increasing total yield.

Farkee,

My fault. I should have done a better job in wording. The first pic is indeed of the most pruned plants and is of a modified version of Wilber's. In most cases, the lowest 6 suckers have been allowed to grow and one fork but no others so 8, rather than 18 but not all plants have cooperated yet in producing large lower limbs as Yellow pear and a few others.

The color and scale make it look less than it is but it is true that while very near the best I've seen round these parts this yr. they are not as lush as I'm used to, would like, or in fact as good as most of my other plants. My potted plants in fairly heavy shade are much larger deeper colored and in some cases, more prolific as are some other ingrounds but also much later along the production scale which was the point of the post.

There is too little or too much of something. Readings with a garden meter show ph is fine, fert low as is water compared to the other plants. I've not been holding back. These plants have recieved more feed and water than any inground plants I've ever grown but I guess the tree is sapping it faster than I'm feeding them. I'm probably going to try a fairly large scale foliar feeding, rather than occaisionally playing with a squirt bottle once in a while.

But all of that misses the point ... Are we growing plants, or are we growing fruits? I'm not happy with the plants, I'm very happy with their production.

What I believe has happened based on looking at pics from earlier in the season and separate from the tree issue, is that those plants having the better sun spot, or some other reason, set fruit earlier in their lives than those in more shady spots and set fruit very well. The plants, with my help concentrated on developing seed for the next generation as is their job. The other plants focused more on plant developement than fruit. Not that tricky to grasp. What is unknown is the facilitating mechanism and whether once this flush is over, whether or not they will catch up with their sisters which should be slowing down due to fruiting. It may look or sound weird but may work out just dandy, some early, some mid, everybody late.

Thanks for the compliments but I assure you, other than the several hundred shrubs and trees we've planted, its nothing out of the ordinary round here and if we weren't decided on finding a new place, I would cut a few trees and build a more conventional site.

P.S.

Took a bag of toms to some friends tonight and had a mini tasting party.

Sprite, Was liked by those that like sweets.

Red Robin, Was liked until they tasted Gardener's Delight :-)

Gardener's Delight, Everyone liked this.

Yellow Pear, 1 yes, 2 OK 1 no.

Black Cherry, 2 yes, 2 OK

Carolina Gold, 1 yes, 2 OK, 1 no.

Taxi, 2 yes, 1 OK, 1 no.

Early Wonder, 4 yes.

Health Kick, 4 spitters.

Mortgage Lifter, 4 yes. Tasty but kinda soft.

Cherokee Purple, 4 resounding affirmatives but 1 wanted to eat only that if going to eat that. Don't ask me :-) I loved it and am very happy that there are 2 more blushing hard with more behind that.

Still to come,

Grampa's Minnesota, blushing.
Missouri Pink Love Apple, blushing.
Sunset Red Horizon, blushing.
Brandywine OTV, Several nice sized but still green.
Aunt Gerties Gold, Same.
German Queen, Same.
Carbon, 1 ripe in a day or 2.

Dave :

Thanks for entrtaining the side thread of taste.

Since you already set up such great research. :)
Did you happen to document any difference from the yellow pear "Wilburs Method" pruned and the Gardeners Delight that was slightly pruned, to the counterparts grown in tree roots, and the time of ripening between them?

Not being flippant, wondering what the affect might have, or if anyone commented on it, and the ripening time on the vine.

Windclimber,

It isn't your fault but you have handed me an easy lob that I can't pass up. My research on toms is definately seat of pants. I've worked in labs before. Standards of proof will not likely ever be found in my gardens to satisfy those with minds made up. Hopefully, I made that clear but real time photos don't lie either and after thinking about it some, I'm not sure that this season especially, "pathetic" should describe any producing plant. Waiting for optimal temps was the wrong move since a good part of the nation jumped straight to too hot for good fruit set. Not pruning plants, at least in smaller containers IS the wrong move else suffer the raveges of BER.

Toms to try, enjoy and share are what its about here for me. I've already had a successful seasonn since I'm not locked into any particular school of thought of ideals and the good part has just begun :-)

To answer your question, I think it is best to say that the first pic, described by me as "the main tom patch" is near 1/2 in the drip line of a mature oak. A few plants, within a step of the trunk. The other photos of YP and GD with chicken wire, are planted in the crotch of the roots of two newly dead silver maples, probably killed by a nearby walnut grove I planted about 1985 ish. Strange that such a lush plant should be able to thrive in such a place hmmm?

I digress. The real answer to your question is that it can not be answered, since at this time, that unpruned plant has yet to deliver any ripes, which was the whole point of the original post.

I make a handy living doing exactly the opposite of what many think is what should be done or is even possible. No, I won't elaborate except to say that while you shouldn't waste time re-inventing the wheel, you should always question and be dedicated to learning every day. Why, is the most important question in the universe and should never be allowed to be stifled.