I can hardly believe that: A POST in the forum !! lol Thanks Stefan :-)

Nat' could give you better information about parmas (Toulouse isn't a hot place in winter - Denis, what about your parmas ?): -2°C is not really a problem, it's tender, not as hard as "normal" violet but it's not a tropical plant :-)I was said, its hardness was depending not only on temperature (its duration) but also on the moisture and the wind. I think it's better not to try too much ;-) Let's say it's tender, it will prevent from a bad surprise (hate that ;-)).

I'm not sure about parmas and hybrids...according to me (personnal point of you) parmas are just a strange nature joke (mutation ? genetic mistake ?): if humans were not gardeners, maybe those parmas would just not exist. Nature is not in love with steril alive beings :-(
Maybe a "normal" odorata is making a stolon being a parma once a million time or something like that: ooooooooops, I'm sorry, I made a mistake ;-)

To get parmas, what about trying a british nursery ? As far as Great Britain is part of the commonwealth, it should be easy I guess...get us informed :-)
The best idea is to come to the violet's festival of Toulouse in february 2006: what do you think ? Don't be shy, you're welcome :-)

Take care :-)
Thierry.

Thanks for the response, Thierry! I'll have to see what happens if we have another cold spell without as dry of air - maybe it won't react as badly then. But I still have the rest of winter to worry about, since temperatures here can go as low as -18°C or a little colder in a bad year. I have decided to take at least a cutting indoors as insurance.

I'm not sure, when looking at a Parma and an odorata at the same time, if it would be possible to derive one from the other in a single mutation - there are enough differences that it seems Parmas must come at least partly from a different species altogether, although not too distantly related. The leaves of Parmas do look something like V. alba, but then that species must be much hardier given its range in Europe. I have my 'Feline' growing next to a 'King of the Doubles', which granted is sometimes alleged to be a hybrid of V. suavis but follows closely enough to straight V. odorata to me, and the differences are obvious. The Parma has an extra luster to its foliage which has a subtly different shape (narrower arrowhead-shape rather than a wider heart-shape), a much taller, domed plant shape (the odorata/Russian violet seems more flattened as a rosette), with the Parma also having longer petioles and thinner runners. Its wilting after exposure to 28°F in addition to stories of Arab violet cultivation guides demonstrating a long subtropical violet horticulture makes me wonder if we shouldn't be looking to the wetter places of southwest Asia such as the fertile mountains of Yemen for the Parma's wild relatives. I understand that the whole of North Africa and the Middle East had a wetter climate several thousand years ago, and it's possible that former ranges of plants without contemporary wild relatives have disappeared altogether - the musk rose, Rosa moschata, being another case in point. I doubt that every nook and cranny has been explored, though, given the long-standing political and social instability of that region.

I do wonder, sometimes, if my double violet back home couldn't be some sort of hybrid of the two, since it gives off a strange aura that isn't quite like any of the other odorata types I've seen or grown, and some of its odd features seem somehow more in keeping with the Parma type (longer petioles, more domed habit, plus a sweeter scent - recalling my fragrance terminology, it lacks the "horse" note I notice in some others - but I don't know if there are no other odoratas with similar aromatic profiles because cultivars are scarce and expensive here). It must, of course, have a good dose of odorata to survive the harsh northern winters; although it does sometimes struggle with them, yet I had always blamed a virus or lack of thick snow for that. And yet to look only at the flowers, you'd think it was just the plain old Double Blue odorata of centuries ago, but that cultivar isn't around here in the U.S. to acquire for a real comparison.

I'm not sure I could get violets from a British nursery easily, since for nearly every other nursery there I always run across very strongly worded statements that they do not ship to the United States. If any nurseries do send overseas, they definitely aren't saying so on their websites...

The festival in Toulouse... oh, I would love to (even if I don't speak any French)! I will let you know if I can manage either the time or the money for such an adventure - and thank you for the invitation, no matter what happens. It's very sweet of you :-)

Stefan

That's so fun to see that parmas' origins inspire so much imagination :-)
Just one point: parmas cannot hybrid with another violet 'cause flowers are definitively steril :-( According to me, this should be a wrong way. The best surprise -it can happen sometimes, even if it's rare- are seeds.
Once, a stolon of Nat's parma made a "normal violet": I just can't remember the name she gave to that cultivar :-/
Finally, who knows ?....
"More than once
Have I dreamed
I was a butterfly.
Now, I'm not sure
I'm not a butterfly
Dreaming is a man"

All the best :-)
Thierry.

Thanks for your warm wishes, Thierry!

We definitely need to continue figuring out what makes Parmas set seed on occasion, and learn how to exploit that condition. Surely if they are capable of setting seed, then they are capable of crossing with violets that aren't too distantly related, and I simply have to believe that V. odorata and its hybrids should fit into this category. I remember reading someone (Mike, perhaps?) mention that some older cultivars were reputed hybrids between the two, not that we can verify this as fact. Probably French, or possibly Japanese, researchers - assuming they haven't already - are the most likely to actually attempt to determine the true taxonomic/genetic relationships involved.

By "normal violet" do you just mean a single-flowered violet? I know that 'Feline' is her single-flowered (but still sterile or mostly sterile) selection off of the old Toulouse, but she also had selected a portion that bore seed for her ('Fée Jalucine', I think?), and perhaps another single form from that - if I read correctly. Of the latter cultivar or two, I don't think I've ever heard any news since.

My poor 'Feline' has had to endure a night of 20°F (-6.7°C) and a day that only barely rose above the freezing point. I wrapped its entire pot carefuly in a thin, soft, insulating covering, but I don't dare to look inside until the temperature rises again tomorrow. Strangely, after such cold, no more frost is predicted at all for the next week.

As always,
Stefan

Obviously there is more involved than just cold, as you surmised, Thierry... my covered Parma weathered the 20°F/-6.7°C without any trouble at all. I'm relieved! Now there is still hope that it can survive an entire winter here, so I will keep watching it and coddling it along. Perhaps I could start thinking about more to add to my collection this fall/winter... *evil laughter*. Okay, maybe I shouldn't get ahead of myself.

Stefan

I'm glad your parma still alive :-) Crossed fingers it will go that way all winter long ! Covering is a good thing: up to a certain temperature. You're in zone 7, it should be okay.
"Normal violet", you're right, I meant a single-flowered violet, I just didn't know how to say it (don't laught - not too much ;-)!!).
Finally, about parmas behaviour origins and so on, some things have been written, many others have been only supposed...who's right, who's wrong, finally it just doesn't matter, either no matter in the end, the question as to whether or not "this is reality". Only what really touches the emotions is the reality here and now :-)

Do hope you'll have others parmas: I have some others next spring and I'll make another try :-)

Keep us inform about you parma :-)
All the best :-)
Thierry.

I've been following this discussion of the hardiness of Parma violets with keen interest, in particular because Stefan and I must be near neighbors.
Although there is a lot of information about the culture of Viola odorata cultivars out there, much of it is either ambiguous or confusing when it comes to the issue of hardiness. Several sources list Parma violets as hardy to USDA zone 6; I frankly doubt that. In fact, they are probably not hardy in the colder parts of USDA zone 8 without protection.
Ironically, they may come through winters north of here where there is consistent snow cover.
The account of sweet violet culture in the old Bailey Cyclopedia of American Horticulture specifically mentions the area from New York to Norfolk (essentially the entire middle Atlantic region of coastal eastern North America) as an area where sweet violet (and I think Parma violet is specifically meant here) culture is fraught with uncertainty.
I have fourteen cultivars on trial in a cold frame. Some, such as King of the Doubles, Reid's Crimson Carpet and Mme. Armadine Pages are blooming now. Others do not even show buds yet.
I would very much like to hear of some successes here in eastern North America!

About parmas hardiness Stefan please see my reply in Jim's welcome posting...

On another close subject..I am happy to see that "my" Feline seems to be widespread in USA...:-) Heard of it plenty of times growing here and there! But will you believe I've totally loose it here?? Only one clump is safe but doesn't give single flowers anymore.. :-(