Have you tried covering the piles up during the day to get hotter? And have you added cow poop to it too?

When I initally started my compost heap (in a bin) I added a little potting soil, dry leaves, stuff from the kitchen (egg shells, table scraps, etc...) I also added bad fruit, and one can of tuna fish, cow poop and a little water. I put it in a very sunny location on the "back 40" since is smelled for a few weeks. I covered it up and after a few weeks I went to Wal-Mart and added a few fishing worms(plain earthworms here); after that the stuff was decomposing really quick.

I haven't covered it, because I don't want the neigbors to complain that it looks ugly. Nor have I added any poopy fertilizer. That would probably be a good idea.

My main questions are:
1)Will the worms stay there even if they aren't in a bin?
2)Does it REALLY matter what kind of worms I get?
3) I don't understand the layering thing everyone talks about. If you are just going to mix everything up with a shovel, what's the point of layering?

Thanks!

1)Will the worms stay there even if they aren't in a bin?

Generally, yes. Red wigglers need to be fed, and will stay where there is a ready food source. Some might wander off in rainy weather, but I have kept at least one pile similar to yours, without a bin and still have many thousand worms hanging around.

2)Does it REALLY matter what kind of worms I get?

YES. Red Wigglers multiply rapidly, will stay where there is food source, can live in a wide range of temperatures and don't mind the occasional pile turning. Other worms aren't like this. Night crawlers, for example, hate to have their living space disturbed.

3) I don't understand the layering thing everyone talks about. If you are just going to mix everything up with a shovel, what's the point of layering?

You layer carbon materials with nitrogen materials if you want a pile to heat up. Layering allows the two different kinds of materials to "burn each other up", in a sense. Layering is much less important when you vermicompost. Vermicomposting is ideal for piles/bins that get small additions every day.

However, layering carbon/nitrogen materials is not a bad thing when starting a bin. You layer them or stir them well, let them heat up for a week or two, let the whole thing cool down, and then add your worms. This makes a good bedding environment for the worms, and you add your Daily Additions to this.

You do not want a pile to heat up after you've already got your worms in it.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Earthworm Farm

Sounds like you already have enough greens (grass and kitchen scraps). It actually sounds like your piles arent big enough to really heat up and break down rapidly.

Worms will help to break it down more quickly, however they dont like things to get too hot. If the place where your piles are is a place that you want the worms to work the soil as well as the pile, the regular worms work fine. Theyll pull debris from the pile into the soil, uncompacting the soil and adding OM.

Red wigglers may be more deesirable in that they can handle higher temps than normal garden worms, dont mind being disturbed, and multiply faster. However you already have some composting worms in your yard and garden, its just going to take a while for them to get to sufficient numbers.

Who cares what the neighbors think. As soon as they start paying your mortgage then they can complain about what you do in your yard. (That little saying works great for me. But then again im heavily tattooed, 6'1", over 200 lbs, and usually have our guard dog with me ::grins::).The warmer the piles are the faster they will decompose.

Bryan

Hi Priswell and Bryan, thanks for answering. Here are my comments/questions:

Right now my piles are about 3 feet tall and 5 feet in diameter. They are pretty big, I think! They are made of kitchen scraps and grass clippings mainly, along with twigs and some dry leaves. I have stopped adding my kitchen scraps because at the rate I'm going, I'll have 20 piles soon!

I don't think they have ever gotten "hot", so my plan is to do the following (please advise):

1) mix in a big bag of peat moss that I have lying around
2) buy some manure and mix it in
3) cover with a plastic tarp
4) wait a while and hope it gets hot, then after a couple weeks, add worms

Does that sound OK?

OK, here are some more questions...

1. Assuming I get the worms going, can I grab a bunch of them and "sprinkle" them on my lawn so that they will aerate my soil and eat the tons of thatch that I have? I have heard this, but is it true?

2. Also, can I put them in all my potted plants to aerate them, too?

3. If I take them out of the compost and put them into my lawn/potted plants, will they have anything to eat or would I have to add compost every so often to feed them?

4. What is the scientific name of red wigglers? I need something I can use in Spanish.

5. Once I start adding kitchen scraps again, should I first let them sit a few days to start rotting before I put them in the pile? So far I have just put them directly into the pile each day.

Thanks for your help!

Alexanndra,

My guess is that your piles might be too dry: they should be kept about as wet as a wrung-out sponge. If you are in desert-Mexico, you may need to keep them covered, and even if you are humid-Mexico, you may need to water them if it hasn't been raining much.

Your plan sounds good, but I would add a couple steps:

"1) mix in a big bag of peat moss that I have lying around
2) buy some manure and mix it in"
2-1/2) water the piles until they are moist throughout
"3) cover with a plastic tarp
4) wait a while and hope it gets hot, then after a couple weeks"
4-1/2) check to see whether worms have migrated into the pile from the soil underneath. A good pile often has a "Field Of Dreams" effect: if you build it, they will come :)
If you still don't see any, go ahead and add some.

1. Assuming I get the worms going, can I grab a bunch of them and "sprinkle" them on my lawn so that they will aerate my soil and eat the tons of thatch that I have? I have heard this, but is it true?

Maybe. If they come into your piles from the soil, or if they are the composting worm species that also lives in soil, they'll do fine.
If they are composting-only worms, they will live in any decaying organic matter on the soil surface (leaf piles, lawn litter, your thatch if it stays moist enough), but not in the soil itself.

When you have your worms going strong, try "sprinkling" a few and see what happens (again, be sure to "water them in", especially if the lawn's at all dry).

2. Also, can I put them in all my potted plants to aerate them, too?

See answer # 1. (Unless you are raising bonsai: there isn't really room for worms in those teeny handfuls of soil).

3. If I take them out of the compost and put them into my lawn/potted plants, will they have anything to eat or would I have to add compost every so often to feed them?

a) Yes, they will eat your lawn thatch, fallen leaves, mulch, etc., and any other organic matter in your soil/potting soil.

b) Adding compost every so often will feed not only your worms, but your plants and your soil, and is such a resoundingly good idea that you would do well to plenty of finished compost whenever you can. Some people spread compost on their lawns annually from a fertilizer spreader, and have the best lawns on the block (as verified by their boasts on the Soil and Lawn forums :)

4. What is the scientific name of red wigglers? I need something I can use in Spanish.

Eisenia fetida (one valid pronunciation is "i SEE nee a FET id a")
is the primary worm called the "Red Wiggler", but is largely indistinguishable from:

Eisenia andrei("Red Wiggler", also sometimes called "Red Tiger"). These two species are often sold intermixed, and both do very well in the compost pile.

Lumbricus rubellus("Red Wiggler", also sometimes called "Redworm"). This worm does great in the compost pile, and can also live in soil rich in organic material. Thus it is the species that you could successfully "sprinkle" on your lawn and potted plants.

To get a random mixture of the above three species, buy any worms called Red Wigglers, Redworms, Compost Worms or even Eisenia fetida :)
They are very difficult for laymen to tell apart, and it makes no difference which of these three species you put into your compost.

You might also find the tropical worms:
Perionyx excavatus ("Indian Blue Worm) or
Eudrilus eugeniae ("African Nightcrawler") - this ones dies at temps below 50 F.
Both these species live in both soil and compost.

The worm you don't want for your compost is:
Lumbricus terrestris("Night Crawler") - good for fishing, but not a compost worm. It doesn't like to be disturbed by digging, and it does like soil at least 6 ft. deep to dig in itself (but they'd be great for your lawn).

5. Once I start adding kitchen scraps again, should I first let them sit a few days to start rotting before I put them in the pile? So far I have just put them directly into the pile each day.

Either way. They have to sit for a few days before they break down enough for the worms to eat them (worms don't really eat the scraps, but the bacteria that feed on the scraps themselves), but whether the scraps break down in your pile or elsewhere doesn't matter much.
(Unless the scraps spend time where fruit flies might lay eggs, and fruit flies in your compost would bother you.)

You may also want to check out the "Soil, Compost and Mulch" forum for (much! :) more info on composting in general. Their FAQ (http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/soil/), especially under "A Brief Intro To Composting", is very helpful.

Good luck, and say "Hi" to your worms for me!

:) Evelyn

PS. According to my English/Spanish dictionary, "earthworm' is "lombriz f (de tierra)". But you probably already knew that :)

Here is a link that might be useful: A Brief Intro To Composting

Thanks Eveylyn, how nice of you to give that detailed reply!

I live near Toluca which is I believe the highest altitude in Mexico, and it's fairly cool and dry. It's probably in the low 70's in the day and 40's at night right now, and about 15 degrees lower on both ends in the cooler months. The soil seems to be very clay-like to me, which I don't understand given that there are a lot of pine trees around the area. The main reason I want to compost is to make less waste, but I really would like it to help me with my lawn also. Prior to getting married, my husband used chemical fertilizers on our lawn and it looked fine. Then I moved in and aqcuired all the home duties (including the lawn) and it has gotten much worse, despite trying to become more organic! Most of this is probably related to the fact that I came with two dogs included, so there are now pee circles and holes everywhere. But additionally, there is like and inch of thatch that drives me crazy. I wanted to get a dethatcher, but no such thing exists here. Then somebody told me to buy a bunch of worms during the rainy season (coming up) and toss them on my lawn and that they would eat the thatch. From there, I thought, well, why not add worms to my pathetic compost piles, and from there get more and more worms to add to the lawn. So, that's how I arrived here!

From what you say though, the worms I would use in the compost wouldn't be the ones I need for the lawn, with the exception of Lumbricus Rubellus. I will try to get those, but I have no way of knowing if they really are or not (people tell you what you want to hear here!). I'm sure I could get the Lumbricus Terrestris worms exclusively for the lawn...but will they come up to eat the thatch or will they only aerate?

I haven't checked the lawn threads yet, but I will soon.

Alexanndra,

I'm glad my reply was useful :)

So you're high, dry, and cool; and on clay under pines.

I'll betcha that your piles need more moisture, since things dry out so fast at high altitudes. You might even have to keep the piles covered to keep enough moisture in.
My own personal experience (in low, humid, and cool Oregon) has been that as long as compost can drain freely and is not exposed to heavy rain, it's difficult to overwater the pile; it just absorbs what it needs and the rest drains off.
(Note that you don't have to give your pile fresh potable water either: the water from cooked veggies or pasta, from potted plant drainage dishes, the liquids from canned goods, the scurfy water from the dog's water bowl, stale coffee or tea, water from pre-rinsing dirty dishes, etc., is all *great* for the pile.)

Pines are also notorious for sucking water out of the ground underneath them, and I thinking that montane clays tend in general to have lower natural earthworm populations than many other soil types (but I'm not sure about that).

My guess is that your best way to get your piles going and perhaps get some great worms at the same time would be to find a place (possibly in that verdant valley down the hill? :) where farm animal (horse, cow, sheep, goat, and rabbit are all good) manure has been piled on the ground for a while, and where the farmer will let you take some (if you load & haul it yourself, farmers are often more than pleased to give this stuff away when asked).

(Doh! When you first built your piles, did you add a shovelful of dirt or anything to inoculate them with beneficial bacteria and organisms? I should have thought of that last night: it could be another reason your piles are starting up slow.
If not, the farm manure will have plenty of them. (And if it'll take you while to get the farm manure, just add a shovelful of unsterile dirt, from nearby any place stuff is growing, to each of your piles.))

The manure will jump start your piles, and chances are excellent that it manure will have suitable worms living in it already. And if they came from soil and are living in compost, they should be suited to living in both :)

(I got my "starter" worms by picking them up out of mud puddles after a rain. They were free, and already adjusted to my local conditions (Okay, I did look a little silly, but what price great compost? :))

I'm not sure if the Lumbricus Terrestris worms would eat the thatch, but they do come up out of the ground at times, and they gotta eat something :)

I wonder if you could train the dogs to pee at the bases of the compost piles? :)

Cheers, and good luck,

- Evelyn

Alexanndra,

You've gotten some great advice so far. I'd like to add my dos centavos from my own experience.

You mention sprinkling worms around your lawn and in planting pots. This may or may not work, although trying this out in the rainy season would be the best time of year to try.
The redworm is a worm that basically needs to be fed. If there's enough organic material from the grass thatch, they'll be OK, but it's possible that that may not be enough. So with that in mind, I'd wait till you have a hundred thousand worms from your own built-up worm population to do that, say next year or the year after that.

It may be better to grow your compost and earthworms in your planned pile, then add the compost in thin amounts (you don't need much) to your lawn to improve it.

I do think that your compost pile will be greatly improved by adding earthworms, especially if you want to reduce your wastage. Earthworms can consume a great deal of "trash" in the form of kitchen leavings and paper (shredded), and we have cut our outgoing garbage down at least 50% by keeping our compost pile fed.

I agree with Evelyn that part of your problem with your current pile might be lack of water.

I have stopped adding my kitchen scraps because at the rate I'm going, I'll have 20 piles soon!

Once you get your pile going properly and add your worms, you won't have this problem. But when you add your worms, place them all at one end of the pile, and add some cornmeal or corn tortillas (moldy tortillas are considered 4 star by redworms). Continue to add your kitchen leavings in that one spot, or near that one spot instead of spreading new additions throughout the pile. You want the worms to concentrate in one area so they'll be close to each other for breeding.

Keep working at that one corner or end of the pile, and after a while, you'll find that little by little, some of the worms will have migrated to other areas of your pile. When that happens, you'll know you're really making progress.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Earthworm Farm

Evelyn- my piles don't have any dirt or manure in them, just greens and browns! I promise to get some manure this week!

Evelyn and Priswell- It rains for about an hour a day here, but even so my piles are always dry the next morning, so I'm sure moisture is an issue. I'll cover them.

I was thinking of maybe doing a small worm bin on the back porch with just a bit of the stuff from the piles, rather than trying to go wormy with all the piles. I think it might be easier for me to see what's going on on a smaller scale since I've never done this before.

If I do this, does the first layer have to be shredded paper or could I use wood shavings?

Wood shaving and sawdust take a loooooong time to break down. You have gotten alot of great advice above so ill just comment here and there.

Worms can work in potted plants, however, you do run the risk of the worms trying to escape and ending up on your head (someone has a funny story about that).

Fresh grass clippings generally have a high moisture content. If covered shortly after being put on the piles they will help with the moisture, again i recommend covering them as heat may still be an issue, and the covering will help to retain moisture.

Your list above includes alot of greens, manure is another green, have you noticed any of your piles getting slimy? Your piles are of sufficient size to heat up.

I have noticed that in clay soil, high altitude, and pines, (alot of wyoming) that it is quite hard to find worms.

If your piles are on the ground then the beneficial bacteria can migrate up through the pile, but the process would be speeded up by adding a some shovel fulls to the pile.

Another worm species you may want to stay away from is Eiseina Hortensis. This is the species i have and they HATE to be disturbed, when digging pockets to feed in, worms from all over the bin will start escaping. Thus all my new bins are the layering method.

I would recommend starting out with a worm in, if for no other reason than you will have a population from which you can take worms without losing your whole investment.

Not sure on how much mail you get, this is one of my major sources of shredded paper, on envelops rip out the windows, shred the rest, i also use fast food bags and napkins, the napkins tend to break down faster than anything else. Once you start shredding junk mail you are happy to get it ::grins::. Too bad you cant do the same thing to junk e-mail.

Bryan

Too bad you cant do the same thing to junk e-mail

But, Bryan, couldn't you could print out your junk e-mail, and then shred it? :) :) ;)

Alexanndra,

I think adding a shovelful of soil to each pile, and covering them, will help a lot, and I predict that you will have some nicely cooking piles within a week or two after you do that :)

I also think that a worm bin might work really well for you. I find, with my 18-gallon bin, that 2 weeks after I've buried kitchen scraps in a given spot, they are sufficiently gone for me to bury the same volume of kitchen scraps in that spot over again.

Try searching this forum the magic keyword name "Kelly Slocum". She's re-posted her great Worm Bin How-To somewhere around here fairly recently.
(And wood shavings will work just as well as shredded paper, but they do break down slower. I usually mix wood shavings 50:50 with shredded paper for bedding, but I'm not sure I can say why: I just do. YMMV :)

- Evelyn

I was thinking of maybe doing a small worm bin on the back porch with just a bit of the stuff from the piles, rather than trying to go wormy with all the piles.

I think that's a great idea. You can intensely cultivate your earthworm population in a smaller, more controlled space to build up your worm population, and generally get vermiculture experience.

I basically have 2 worm areas. One is in less favorable conditions than the other one, because it is more exposed and gets a bit less water, but it processes the bulk of our household biodegradable stuff. This less favorable bin handles most of the paper goods, such as shredded junk mail.

I have a second area that is smaller, but in much more favorable conditions, and closer to the house, so I can more closely watch over things. This group tends to get fatter and muliply faster than the other group, so I use this as my "nursery". When the population builds up in this bin, I transfer a great number of the worms over to the other location. I also use this bin to bolster the population of the other bin if I, say, clean out the cupboards or refrigerator and need more "wormpower" to deal with it.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Earthworm Farm

OK, here goes my new plan:

1) add manure and peat moss (I already have it, need to use it!) and cover outdoor piles to heat up (I'm sure they are too dry now...not slimy at all)

2) meanwhile make the 3x2x1 bin that I've seen on the net for my future worms

3) after my piles cool (assuming they heat up!), make a bedding for my worm bin with compost from the piles (Can I do this rather than using shredded paper?)

4) add worms (Eisenia Fetida) to bin and feed once a week

5) start reading the soil forum, with the idea that once the really rainy season starts, I can add Night Crawlers to the lawn to see if they help me with the thatch

You all have been so nice, thanks!