Every year lately we see these side-by-side grow-out comparisons. And that's good 'cuz without growing two plants side-by-side under supposedly the exact same conditions, how can the gardener make a fair comparison between two allegedly same or different (as the case may be) varieties.

A caution however is well to consider ... two plants even of the same variety have some degree of likelihood for noticeable differences especially if those two plants are open pollinated rather than hybrid.

Yes, this issue was raised last year and devolved into somewhat of an argument. And I'm not intending to resurrect that negativity now.

However and due to my assertion last year that these side-by-side comparisons, especially when only two plants are involved rather than a large block of plants, there is a high likelihood of unscientific and unproven suppositions, I planted several cages with two plants of the exact same variety from seeds saved from the exact same tomato off the exact same plant. Let me repeat, there are several pairs of these plants in my garden right now and each pair has the exact same genetics in that in each case the two plants came from seed off the same 2009 plant.

I used 3-foot diameter cages and dug out 3 foot diameter potholes and amended each pothole with 5 gallons of rotted horse manure, a cup of 12-12-12, and planted the two sibling plants 2 foot on center trying to give each plant equal access to the same quality grow space.

Today, after the plants have been in the ground about 3 weeks, one can already see significant differences between sibling plants in about half the twin-planted holes. The other half of the twin-plants look close enough to one another to say there are no significant differences yet.

When I say significant differences, I mean in plant size, height, lushness of foliage, number of flower buds, whether any buds have opened yet, and generally how advance each plant appears compared to its "twin."

Just another unscientific, casual, non-double blind, low sample, proves-nothing observation ...

I hear you Bill and I agree. My "comparison" is non scientific and meant purely for fun. On the other hand....LOL....it's ALL I have to go on! We humans make final decisions based sometimes on the craziest or flimsiest evidence one could imagine. We can rationalize almost anything if need be at times. All part of this great experience of life...;-)

I'm growing both also, one plant of each.

Through swapping and SSE, I have so many varieties to grow, in limited space, I usually choose to grow only one plant of each variety.

This could create an undo biased appreciation or dislike; and prolly has. I'm repeat growing only four of the 45 varieties that I grew last year.

A caution however is well to consider ... two plants even of the same variety have some degree of likelihood for noticeable differences especially if those two plants are open pollinated rather than hybrid.

Yes, this issue was raised last year and devolved into somewhat of an argument. And I'm not intending to resurrect that negativity now.

However and due to my assertion last year that these side-by-side comparisons, especially when only two plants are involved rather than a large block of plants, there is a high likelihood of unscientific and unproven suppositions, I planted several cages with two plants of the exact same variety from seeds saved from the exact same tomato off the exact same plant. Let me repeat, there are several pairs of these plants in my garden right now and each pair has the exact same genetics in that in each case the two plants came from seed off the

*****

What Bill is talking about is the genetic diversity found WITHIN a variety which is well known. I don't remember this being discussed last year and if it was there shouldn't have been any arguments b'c just as the sum total of ALL the OP varieties we know of exhibits genetic diversity so too is genetic diversity seen for a specific OP variety.

Which is one of the reasons why, when saving seed for a variety it's best to use several fruits from one plant, better still to use several fruits from two plants, well, you get my drift.

When I first started saving seed all those years ago the recommendation to preserve genetic diversity within a variety was to plant 8 plants in a row and save seed from fruits from inner four.

Reality says that few home gardeners have the room to grow that many plants/variety and in my zeal to grow as many varieties as I felt compelled to grow, I didn't put out that many plants either. I always aimed for two plants/variety, at least, and did so until I had to start growing my plants in Gro-bags in the backyard and not in the fields where I used to after I was confined to the walker I now have to use.

Carolyn

bigdaddy

I'm growing both but primarily to compare the taste, earliness, and production of the two. Brandywine Sudduth is said to be luscious-tasting, and many tomato-lovers are quite willing to sacrifice earliness and production for that taste. If, however, Cowlicks taste as good and are earlier and more productive, that's definitely a reason to grow them again.

I also have both growing. One pair of each is already in the ground in the same row and beside each other, and the other pair will be planted in about a week or so, once I lift the garlic from that garden.

I've grown the Sudduth Brandy for at least 10 years. Now I'm looking forward to trying the two varieties side by side.

Cindy

I have four of each in side-by-side rows, seeded on April 6th and put out on May 15th. All eight plants are indistinguishable at this point, about 12-15" tall, thick stemmed and lush. I'll be recording yield weight, plant health, and fruit timing, and will report updates later in the season.

TomNJ

Alright austinnhanasmom's, Cindy, Anney and Tom! Let's have some fun comparing notes! I'll post pics every three weeks and maybe some of you will also and who knows, if we all vote at season end and one variety gets way more votes than the other we may have a NON SCIENTIFIC Brandywine Champion!

Carolyn, Genetic Diversity in a single variety, is this what accounts for say I start 5 KBX seeds and all grow at slightly different speeds? Maybe even one of them is a runt? For instance, I grew two of each of these Cow's and Sud's. One Sud was a little bigger than the other and same for the two Cow's. That's what you mean regarding genetic diversity in a single variety? BTW, the two "contender's" in the pic were the bigger of each...I tried to be as fair as possible.

I'll be growing Cowlick's again this year and will be comparing it to Big Ben and Sterling Old German. Ami

So far, the healthiest and most advanced (most open blossoms) Brandywine in my garden is Terhune.

Well I don't understand science, politics, religion but I do understand tomatoes are great on BLT's Who else understand BLT's with maters? And I'm looking to taste BW Sudduth /Cowlick BW/Toedebusch Pink/Polish Ellis/German Queen/Earl Faux/

George

Terhune? Big Ben? Sterling Old German? Toedebusch Pink? Like George, I also have a LOT to learn!

As for me and my tomatoes this summer I'm not growing any Brandywines of any kind although some of my newer varieties have Brandywine as a genetic input.

Good thing that b'c I don't have a horse running in this race. LOL

Carolyn, who is growing almost new to all or most varieties this summer so hasn't a clue if any of them might compare with Brandywine. With good weather she might know by early September.

I JUST learned that Earl's Faux has BW ancestry. It was definitely a favorite last year. Just one plant sold me:))

It'll FOREVER be in my grow list. Even if I only get a single fruit, I'll keep it in the lineup.

It made the BEST 2009 BLT, (next to Paul Robeson.)

One of the criteria for being a favorite in my garden is "thrives on neglect".

Hoping the 4-5 varieties of BW in my 2010 garden fit the bill!!

Toedebusch Pink was an excellent tomato I grew last year along with Hege German Pink and they were right up there with Cowlick's. Ami

Hey I like that ""thrives on neglect" part!

Ami, I have 2 Hege German Pinks first timing it this year. Can't wait!

UGH - was going to take photos of my Cowlick's and Sudduth's yesterday.

All of a sudden, this hail storm hit.

I think both plants will make it, but they are no longer photo worthy.

Hoping they can thrive on neglect AND survive a severe beating from Mother Nature. She sure was mad yesterday!!

I'm coming into this conversation just to add my 2 cents, LOL, my cowlicks look alot better than my brandywines, most plants are just sulking due to the cool nights we have been having, but out of all the cowlicks look pretty good, hope they produce as well as the ones I saw in a video on U-tube. Its my first year for them and I have 4 cowlicks and 4 brandywines going along with many others.

Alberta

I don't have any Sudduths, so everything I can compare are Cowlicks and "plain" Brandywine from Baker Creek, but if I notice anything remarkable I will be sure to post it.

Pic 2 just taken 6/13/10. 16 days since last pic. You can see the Cow keeps chasing the moon...well, sun! Cowlick's is up to 4.5 rungs of it's Texas cage. Sudduth is up just to the third rung. The Cow is twice as bushy. Too early to report on fruit set. Both very healthy except Sudduth has a lone leaf at the bottom that's yellowed with a touch of brown and I yanked it off right after this picture. My 31 plants are doing great! My F4 PL Brandy/Nar cross has the most yellowed/brown leaves so leads in the disease factor. I tasted my first OSU Blue tomato and it's not bad. Not great. Not bad. But I like bigger tomatoes and these guyz are too small. So, anyone else have a report/update on the two Brandy's?

As far as "Brandywines" this year, the Terhune continues to outpace the Barlow in side-by-side competition. Both are well flowered with the Terhune just a bit bushier and with green fruit set while the Barlow is just now kicking in a growth and flowering spurt but no fruit set yet.

All the other stuff I'm growing with Brandywine parentage has other imputs that have bastardized the Brandywine genes to a point to far along to still call them Brandywine. So, they don't count in this comparison. But they all are way ahead of the two I mentioned both in height/bushiness of vine, and flower/fruit set and green tomato size.

I'm still looking for "Brandywine Ideal" ... I guess you'd say.

PV, a little history on Terhune if you please. Ami

Bill when you find Brandy Ideal please remember I'm your really, really good friend and fellow Colts fan! ;-)

Ami, I got seeds for Terhune from a fellow (Tom, aka Darwinslair) who lives on an island in Lake Minnetonka, Minnesota. I cannot remember the historic details.

This evening, I just went out and tied up a few vines and noticed the Terhune has several quarter size greenies set and loaded with flowers. I'm encouraged by this early and numerous fruit set for a Brandywine and look forward to growing more of these vines in the future if they pan out.

I have a ripe Terhune on the kitchen counter to eat for breakfast courtesy of one of our mutual friends from Texas. I'll report back tomorrow.

Terhune is a "found" tomato. A client of mine bought his first home and it had an extensive garden, quite overgrown, taking over the whole yard. It was early December and everything was frozen out. There were frozen, deflated, fairly large looking dead tomatoes hanging still in the garden. My client (whose last name is Terhune) told me that the realtor had some story about the elderly woman who used to live there growing plants & tomatoes she shared with the whole neighborhood. For giggles I took an empty container out of my truck, collected a few of the tomatoes, and grew a bunch of plants the next year, giving my client a bunch to share with his neighbors, and plopping a bunch in my yard. They gave me in excess of 20# of tomatoes per plant, with the largest fruits (first flush) close to 2# each, and the successive flushes reducing in size by about .25# until they were all about a pound. They have a wonderful meaty interior, seed cavities only around the outside edge, a nearly non-existent tender skin, and I have been sending seeds to anyone I know that will try them ever since.

Tom, if I send you a SASE, can you send some of those seeds my way? It's too late for me to start them now, I think, but it'd be fun to grow them out next year.

sure

Tom Kleffman
3444 Livingston Ave
Orono MN 55391

Only caveat I ask is that you send me back half the seeds you save from them so that I can personally have as much genetic variation material from these as possible. Everything I have comes from those first 5 plants I grew in my own yard.

Tom

I can absolutely do that, but as I said, they won't be grown out until next year, since it's a bit late to be starting from seed, even here with the long growing season, unless they have a really short DTM.

I'll try and get a couple envies in the mail tomorrow - thank you!

Just took a look at my 4 Sudduths vs 4 Cowlicks. All of the plants are staked and are 5.5 to 6 feet tall, with the Cowlicks having a slight edge in height. The Sudduths have 30 tomatoes set and the Cowlicks 38. All plants are very healthy and I would call them essentially equal in all respects.

I'll weigh the tomatoes as I pick them to get an actual yield/plant, but I'm not expecting much difference based on what I am seeing now.

TomNJ

Hey, thanx Tom! Nice report! I'll try and get new pics up soon but the two in the pics above have continued the same. The Cowlicks is three times as dense and twice as tall as Sudduth but both have the same amount of fruit set. The two others I never photographed has the Sudduth a bigger plant than the Cowlicks! LOCATION. LOCATION. LOCATION. LOL

Tom Kleffman
I sent an email to you.
Thank you.
Neil G.

OK, it's been 4 weeks since the last pic. Wouldn't you know it...the Sudduth plant I chose for this "contest" is kinda runtish. It's not a good representation of what Sudduth usually is and I'm sure of that because I have grown Sudduth MANY years and MANY plants! Also, the other Sudduth is "normal" size in my garden and I shoulda chose THAT Sudduth to plant here! LOL And my other Cowlick is also normal size and maybe even a little smaller than the Cowlick in the pic below. C'est la vie!

In the pic below the Cow is killing the Sud. It is up six inches higher than the top Texas cage ring which is six feet tall. The Sud is only up to the 4 and a half rung level. The Cow is twice the plant Sud is. The Cow produced 14 toms so far and one was slightly pink today so I picked it because the monsoon we just had made it crack badly. I may be able to eat it in two days. The Sud has 6 greenies on it. None near ripe. I'm marking the first Cow at 76 days DTM and still unknown for Sud. The Cow has a little more yellow/brown specs and leaf splotches on some lower branches. Nothing serious on either. No branches were removed on either plant. My next report will wait until I actually have a few ripes of each to taste! I will also include total fruit from BOTH Cow and BOTH Sud plants I have growing here for a fairer comparison.

Side Note: Today I picked a nearly ripe Spudakee Purple, a second Gary O Sena and a German Johnson along with the Cow. They join BrandyBoy, Sun Gold and Hege German Pink of my varieties to have ripend something so far..;-)

I don't know bigdaddy. It sounds like Cowlicks is just plain kickin butt. You right about the runt part when you compare the plants in the picture. Calling poor old Sudduth a runt, shame on you.;) Ami

LOL Ami, I never had a "runted" Sudduth ever! This is hilarious that a Sudduth waits until THIS year during THIS photographed and recorded trial to runt! It should be embarrased and a shame of itself growing like that between a normal Cow and a normal Sun Gold....;-)

Now I'm thinking those two 34F nights a week after transplant out might be the culprit. Either that or it's Mr Murphy in my garden...;-)

UPDATE: I am marking my first Sudduth at 78DTM. I found a light pink one on the non pictured much larger Sudduth plant this morning and figuring it will be fully ripe in two days. So the first Cow beat the first Sudduth by 2 days here in my happy little tomato world...yeah, I saw an old Bob Ross painting show on TV last night...;-)

So... I have been watching this thread and I still am dying to know... Which was the better producer and more importantly, which was the better taste?

Sorry misss, I thought I posted a final report here but I must have done that at another site. If you count only my non runted Sudduth, it compared about even in production with Cowlicks. About 25 fruit per plant. Both varieties tasted great and about even. So, after many, many years of growing Sudduth, I was a little surprised the Cow also had a nice creamy wonderful taste. The Cow's were a little smaller and a little rounder. Less gravy boat shaped toms than Sudduth although both varieties produce some rounds and some boats just that Cow produced more rounder toms on average. Both did fine versus disease and held out until the very end despite some spots and specs. I had other varieties that RIP'ed a month earlier. I will grow only Cowlicks next year because I have just too many varieties I want to try and will rest the venerable Sudduth for a bit...

I grew four plants of each side-by-side in a semi-shady area (4-5 hrs of sun). The plants were identical in size and appearance, and production was very close. Tomato size, color, shape, and taste were all equal to me. The Cowlicks were a few days earlier, but the Sudduths produced a few days longer. Final count was:

Sudduth: 50 tomatoes at an average of 9.9 ounces each, totaling 30.9 lbs

Cowlick: 53 tomatoes at an average of 9.6 ounces each, totaling 31.9 lbs

Considering possible slight variations in sunshine, I consider them equal in all respects, and the slight differences above are negligible.

TomNJ

Thank you so very much for posting your findings. I am thinking that I will now try Cowlick's this next year as well as Terhune. I have moved and lost my old seed strain of Brandy's and the stores here just do not sell the same as the ones that I used to grow. How I wish that I had those back!

I have gotten several hundred requests for Terhune tomato seeds, and I have tried to get them all out, but I am running low on seeds, I KNOW i have misplaced/lost some requests, so SUZE has offered to fill requests, and is listing it through SSEs 2011 member catalog. Please contact her for further requests.

Tom

I've seen both Cowlick's and Terhune listed at Knapps-fresh-vegies.netfirms.com. If I'm not mistaken, both are
listed under the 2011 varieties.

Wow. Damn cool to see something I introduced now available commercially.

wonder if I should hit them up for a royalty.

just nice to see it is spreading.

Tom

Also another one you found, Joe Laurer's German Egg.
I got them both! Can't wait to try them especially after
all the great comments about them at "the other forum".
Now to get bigdaddy to try Terhune!

Tom, thanks so much for spreading these seeds around!

I ended up with the last 3 seeds of Ruumi Bannjan last year, being that three people gregw the last 9 seeds, and they had crop failures due to different reasons. (last seeds from GRIN) and I sent back a few thousand. That one is another wonderful tomato. I will grow a dozen plants this year to see if taste and type keeps going. Another wonderful tomato. Will keep general updates going on that. it is a 4-7 ounce beefsteak, collected in the 1850s in Afghanistan.
Tom

That sounds like an interesting variety, Tom. It's a good
thing you had success with it-it's amazing how easy it would be to loose a very limited variety. Please keep us
updated.

My tray had very poor germination and the two Rumi Banjan seedlings that did sprout were scrawny, runty things which Ma Nature quickly culled. It was very disappointing because usually GRIN seeds have done well here, sigh. Bless you Tom! Rumi Banjan is on the WinterSown.Org tomato list ;-) And so is Cowlick's BW and also (recently discussed) Olive Hill--I thought I had little but I just rewrote my inventory lists and found a large amount of that seed which I had squirreled away. Yeehah!

It was quite by accident that I came about the Ruumi Baanjan seeds, but I ranked it #3 out of all my tomatoes for taste last year, and my wife ranked it #1. If there is a downside to this variety, it is that there is not enough meat in it to make a good processing tomato, even though it is so thin skinned that a few turns in the blender are all that is needed to have the skins evaporate. Good juice tomato, poor sauce, great fresh eating. About 1/3 of the tomatoes were yellow-orange in a kind of sunburst, while the rest were straight yellow. And since all three plants gave that trait I am wondering if it has something to do with sun or heat. I will grow those seeds (which I separated by tomato color) in different areas of the yard to see how they do.

Hi Tom,

Thank you again. I agree it is a wonderful tomato. Just for clarity, it really is called Rumi Banjan, though, I suppose, there may be a different Afghani spelling ;-)

T

Here is a link that might be useful: GRIN info.

I dont care how it is spelled, but I used to spell it the way you just did until I got scolded by someone regarding it.

Tom

Don't worry about that person Tom, and never change for anyone except yourself ;-) You're the bestest!

T