jay,

very healthy looking plants,
nothing to worry about,regards

les

jay,

very healthy looking plants,
nothing to worry about,regards

les

Broad leaf weed killer or 2,4-D is what causes that type of distortion IME. I wouldn't worry unless your growth points start curling.

Well, unfortunately my fears were realized this morning. It's Cucumber Mosaic Virus and there are not a lot of options....as in none. The plants are still growing though and that is a positive. I'm thinking about using the situation as a learning experiance and purchasing a few new transplants and replacing some of the infected plants with those while placing a wire cage around each and covering the cage with plastic except for the top. An attempt to isolate each plant.

I've had severe CMV before and had a very good harvest but the problem this year is how early the plants have started showing signs.

We will see....

Jay

would you please post recent images of your plants?

Jean, here is a photo taken today. The effect really shows up on potato leaf varieties.

{{gwi:1305005}}

Jay,

Looks like herbicide damage. Never had CMV on my tomatoes but had herbicide damage, which looked similar. My plants grew out of the herbicide damage and produced well.

Your statement "I've had severe CMV before and had a very good harvest" does not seem very likely for CMV.

Here is a quote from the attached link:
"2,4-D Herbicide Injury occurs in greenhouses and fields. Symptoms include downward bending of leaves and of growing points. New leaves do not expand normally; they are narrow and elongated, twist at the margin, and have abnormally pointed tips. Veins are prominent, light colored, and may appear parallel. Source of the herbicide often is not readily apparent. Possible sources include i) drift, ii) pesticides or fertilizer contaminated during storage, and iii) soil, equipment, tools, containers, clothing and gloves contaminated from a previous herbicide use.

Here is a link that might be useful: TOMATO DISEASES: VIRUSES AND HERBICIDES

Hi baltias,

I think how I managed the good harvest in 2009 was that my plants did not become infected until much later in the season, so they had already set and ripened a lot of fruit.

More info coming....

Jay

Thanks for the updated image.

I too would suspect herbicide because, at least hereabouts, that's MUCH more common in home gardens than is virus. And that's true even if the gardener says s/he is strictly organic.

Also, as was said, one seldom gets a decent harvest from virused plants.

So, to help us fill in the blanks, please tell us -- Have you or someone else used any herbicide any where in the vicinity of the plants?

Did you rake those leaves off of a lawn that had been treated? I lived in a rent house one time that had a pear tree that was always loaded. The landlord had the grass treated and the heavy branches touched the grass and killed the tree. It looks like you are using leaves for mulch, so it made me wonder if that was the cause.

I had a similar problem last year and also thought it was herbicide. I have not used any herbicide for years, but my neighbor had just started using a chem-lawn type service so I assumed that was the culprit. The plants grew out of it just fine and ended up being as good as producers as anything else in my garden.

This year, I seem to be having the same problem, only worse and at the opposite end of the row. So far, no chem-lawn treatments from the neighbors either. I believe I have found the problem:

HORSE MANURE

This year, I am only having the problem with four plants. Under those plants, and those four plants only, I buried horse manure. Maybe it wasn't finished composting. Maybe I should have used less and mixed it with my native soil better. Either way, those plants are stunted and have serious leaf curl and deformities like what you are showing, only much worse. I hope they can grow out of it this year.

I Googled "too much nitrogen tomatoes" (no quotes) and came up with the attached link. The pictures are very similar to what I'm seeing.

So, while I'm not saying that it's not some sort of disease, I am saying that if your issues are like mine, they might simply grow out of it. Your issue could simply be too much nitrogen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures similar to what I'm seeing

i agree with the over fertalizing thing i use miracle grow every other week in my garden and once last year i accidentally did it twice in one week and all my tomatos turned a lush green and looked to almost bubble up like your pics i just gave them a good soak to flush the soil and skipped a fert cycle and they all pulled through great...........

I'm following this post/thread closely... I'm interested in the outcome. :)

archerb said: "This year, I seem to be having the same problem, only worse and at the opposite end of the row. So far, no chem-lawn treatments from the neighbors either. I believe I have found the problem:

HORSE MANURE"

It may be so. But not related to nitrogen content. Instead to herbicide.

If so, it goes like this:
- Livestock is pastured where a professional broad-leaf weed killer was used. (That is not available to home gardeners.)
- Livestock eats grass which is surface-contaminated with the herbicide.
- Livestock not affected by the active ingredient of the weed killer which passes through gut unchanged
- manure is collected, possibly composted, then "shared" and/or sold to gardeners
- When manures, etc, applied to gardens, sensitive broadleaf plants react. Most sensitive are solanaceous group - tomato, potato, pepper. Beans also sensitive.

Tolerant are grasses -- so corn would be unaffected.

Three active ingredients are responsible. But the labeling for each says to compost at least s year prior to use -- The reason: it takes that long for the active ingredient to breakdown.

The scary part of all this is that, in some instances, such manure was processed commercially, then bagged for retail sale.

The good news of this bad news story is this:
You can easily do a simple bio-assay to determine if the organic matter you want to add to your soil is contaminated.

Lots of accurate detailed information on the above, plus images and how to do a bio-assay are online from Washington State University.
Go to http://web.archive.org/web/20030604200520/http://css.wsu.edu/compost/compost.htm

The short version of the above is in a garden blog at http://www.the-compost-gardener.com/picloram.html

Hope this helps.

Here is a link that might be useful: info re contamination from Washington State Univ

Hi Everyone....lots of good info going on here.

To get caught up on some questions:

I have never used any type of herbicide or any type of poison ever on my property. I live here on this 2.7 acres for the past 14 years.

All of the leaves I use for mulch come from my property and I have always used leaves from the center of the property. I didn't set out to avoid collecting leaves from the edge of the property, it just kind of worked out that way.

I live in an extremely wooded area. It is a subdivision but it is not fully developed with most of it undeveloped and heavily wooded. I have no neighbors living across the street from me or behind me. I do have neighbors to the left and right but the neighbor to the left is separated from me by a 3 acre pasture which also has a 20' wooded border strip between me and the pasture. They have horses in that pasture.

The neighbor to the right of me is easily 400' away and is also separated by a wooded border strip that is at least 40' in depth.

Confirmed viruses in previous years were CMV and TSWV.

Here are some key points regarding this issue:

*The distorted leaves were never observed prior to 2009 but were observed in 2009, 2010 and 2011.

*In 2006, 2007 and 2008 I used TomatoTone, Bone Meal and Scott's Humus and Manure in 40 pound bags.

*In 2009, 2010 and 2011 I used Vigoro, Bone Meal and Black Kow composted cow manure in 50 pound bags.

*Prior to 2011, I garden in the same spot for numerous years. This year I moved the garden about 150' away from the original area. Nothing has ever been grown in this new area.

*My container plants are grown in a mixture of Miracle Grow Potting Soil and Black Kow....a 4 to 1 ratio. It should be noted that four plants were transplanted to containers in February and while they stayed inside my greenhouse for almost a whole month before they were moved outside, they did not show any signs of distorted leaves. It was only until after they were moved outside.

I also wondered about trace herbicide showing up in the Black Kow but since so many people use this product, many of whom post here and at other forums, I would have thought that the issue would have been near epidemic proportions and so well known that it would be a common topic.

Lots to think about...

Jay

BVG, good luck. I had very similar problems last year. Only my 3rd year with a garden and out of the blue I saw the shoestring tips and for me stunted growth on all tomato plants. Just as with yours - most folks here suggested 2,4-D spray - but I am convinced that it was CMV due to Aphid infestation. My first batch of 8 plants halted growth for 2-3 weeks at 8-12 inches high(but stayed green with tips curling every day)and I finally pulled them and disposed far away.
I turned the soil, let sit for a week+, then went to Lowes and bought a few plants and friends gave me a few others. I was discouraged but I couldn't resist trying again. All the new plants grew well to 3-4 ft before showing any signs of shoestring tips - then the aphids, whiteflys, and mites moved in again. The plants all showed signs of infection but continued to grow and basically out-lasted whatever they had contracted. The Parks Whopper and Ramapo grew over 8' and produced into October with all new leaves showing some tips/shoestrings and or curling. I'm convinced it was CMV spread by pests as there was a strong correlation of pests to apparent damage/infection. I didn't explore/see the excess nitrogen possibility - that is new to me but unlikely in my garden, and the 2,4-D carrying on manure or compost was impossible for my garden. We will see what this year brings me.
Good Luck. Keep us posted.

Thanks Sully.

I'm by no means out of the woods yet but the plants have continued to grow.

{{gwi:1305006}}

May I ask what zone are you in BV?
Your soil looks just like mine. SANDY.
What did you do to the soil to grow those beautiful tomatoes?

Halime

Jay,

Check out my link below, about my experience with CMV.
The key identifying factor was the aphids.
If you can control the aphids, you will control the spread
of the virus.
And, yes you can get a good crop even with the virus, as others have wondered about. My infected Sungold Select II
plant set as much fruit after infection as it did before. The only difference was the fruit distortion in the infected plant.

Last year I saw similar leaf patterns showing up, but there were no aphids. So as time went by, I finally realized the
only plants showing the system had been mulched with grass
clippings from my lawn. 8 weeks before I collected these
clippings to use as mulch, the lawn care company has sprayed
an herbicide with 2-4D in it on the grass.
I was amazed that the herbicide lasted this long, on grass that had been cut multiple times. However, tomatoes are extremely sensitive to 2-4D and they responded to the trace amounts.
For me, I removed the mulch, and flushed the plants (they were all in pots) with water, and they continued to grow quite well.

Here in NC, aphids are only active in early spring, so if you protect your plants early, you don't have to worry about mid/late season infections. Lady bug larvae are your
best protection, and I recommend holding off on spraying for 1~2 seasons to build up the lady bug population to effectively control aphids later on.

Lee

Here is a link that might be useful: CMV in tomatoes

Jay,

Check out my link below, about my experience with CMV.
The key identifying factor was the aphids.
If you can control the aphids, you will control the spread
of the virus.
And, yes you can get a good crop even with the virus, as others have wondered about. My infected Sungold Select II
plant set as much fruit after infection as it did before. The only difference was the fruit distortion in the infected plant.

Last year I saw similar leaf patterns showing up, but there were no aphids. So as time went by, I finally realized the
only plants showing the system had been mulched with grass
clippings from my lawn. 8 weeks before I collected these
clippings to use as mulch, the lawn care company has sprayed
an herbicide with 2-4D in it on the grass.
I was amazed that the herbicide lasted this long, on grass that had been cut multiple times. However, tomatoes are extremely sensitive to 2-4D and they responded to the trace amounts.
For me, I removed the mulch, and flushed the plants (they were all in pots) with water, and they continued to grow quite well.

Here in NC, aphids are only active in early spring, so if you protect your plants early, you don't have to worry about mid/late season infections. Lady bug larvae are your
best protection, and I recommend holding off on spraying for 1~2 seasons to build up the lady bug population to effectively control aphids later on.

Lee

Here is a link that might be useful: CMV in tomatoes

lkee__,

On your page, you said "As the temps grew hotter, the aphids disappeared and the CMV infection stopped."

In other words, you didn't have CMV. CMV doesn't clear up; it only gets worse.

More evidence that you didn't have CMV = it also affected your potatoes. (That is multiple broad-leaf species.)

More than likely, you had 2nd hand herbicide damage. Just as OP does.

Jean,

You misread. CMV infection stopped, means no more plants were
infected. Since the vector was gone, the means to transmit the virus was also gone.
Secondly, I said nothing about potatoes. Those are potato leaf tomato plants shown in the photos.

CMV doesn't clear up, and didn't when I had it.

Last year the 2-4D damage did clear up after I removed the
source of the herbicide and water flushed the pots the plants were in. I'm not sure how successful the flushing
would be for in ground plants though.....

Lee

brownthumb, my zone is 8B and yes, my soil is very sandy - like beach sand. The only thing I amended the soil with was composted cow manure, bone meal and Vigoro fertilizer. Before adding the amendments, I work the soil as deeply as possible with a garden fork.

Lee, those are some great photos documenting that virus. If I had to choose, I would select herbicide damage over CMV. One thing I will say, I have yet to find an aphid and that just makes this whole ordeal all the more puzzling.

Jay

It was said "The only thing I amended the soil with was composted cow manure"

As was said, please check info about clopyralid. It can be in composted manure.
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/soilmgmt/Clopyralid.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: contaminated composted manure

jean....below is a link to a photo of a tomato test plant grown with compost containing clopyralid.

Interesting!

Jay

It might help if I add the link.

Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: clopyralid

I'm having the same thing with my tomatoes. Started right after an aphid infestation. I still have a few aphids but not that many. Started with two and this week spread to the other two large plants in the same bed.
I did use horse manure from my horses who eat alfalfa hay, not grass or pasture.
There was some spot roundup treatment done on this bed about 4 months ago to try to kill a large yucca plant. Could that be the cause?

Jay,
Have you always used Oak leaves for mulch? I was under the impression that they made the soil way to ascidic, making it not a suitable mulch (unless composted for a year). I noticed that what changed and when you noticed the problem were only 2 ingredients, did you have theese tested? If it did contminate the soil, wouldnt growing a cover crop for a year or 2 remove the contaminents to the point that they are more dilluted? (in that let it grow , then mow then remove all together to a spot where it could compost for a few years) the more you grow and remove the less contaminents left in the soil. I hope I explained this properly.

Hi,

Yes, I've always used oak leaves and I've also wondered about ingredient contamination, etc. but have not had those tested. My biggest concern was the Black Kow but after looking carefully through my garden notes and documenting when things starting happening, I can confidently rule out Black Kow has being a source.

An interesting note is that those four containers I potted up in February with miracle grow and black kow, were fine until I placed them out in the garden and guess what? The foliage of those four plants became distorted in five days.

More info coming...

Jay

Why haven't you had the plants tested to be sure what the problem is??

I'm working on it. My previous resources are not available but I will have it confirmed. In the meantime, I want to still investigate as much as I can. I do have some photos to post of some weeds that are on the other side where the pasture is that look interesting.

One little test I'm going to conduct myself is to take 10 random samples of soil just on the other side of the brush border where the pasture is (but still on my property) and mix together and make a tea out of it. Then I will purchase a tomato plant locally and spray with the tea mixture. I should have results in 24 hours or less.

Here is a closer look at the leaf distortions:
{{gwi:1305007}}

Here are some weeds that look very sickly just on the other side of that brush border between my garden and the neighbors pasture.

{{gwi:1305008}}

I think I'd be having a chat with the neighbor.

I ditto what Taz says, looks like the weeds were sprayed, if done on a windy day your whole yard could be contaminated. The only thing i could suggest is plant some up in containers with bagged soil you just purchased (do not mix anything from the yard in the containers) and grow somewhere away from where you have them now. If container grown ones do ok then best bet would be soil contamination, Quick question are any of your other vegitables showing signs of this or just your tomatos?