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Growing Tomatoes

Open pollenated Sungold?

16 years ago

Has anyone heard of an open pollenated version of Sungold? I seem to remember a few years back that someone had had some success stabilizing Sungolds? I may have even had some seeds somewhere, but I moved and cannot find 'em now ( if I even had 'em at all ).

Or maybe I OD'ed on tomatoes at the time and hallucinated the whole ordeal?

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Comments (22)

carolyn137
16 years ago
Or maybe I OD'ed on tomatoes at the time and hallucinated the whole ordeal?

****

Reinhard Kraft has released two OP versions of Sungold. One is called Sungold Select and the other one is Sungold Select II. Those who have grown both say Sungold Select II is closest to Sungold F1, but still not as good as the hybrid.

Carolyn
lee_71
16 years ago
Here's a picture of 'em from Tomatopalooza[tm] V.

You'll notice the Sungold F1s to the left of them.
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why wouldn't open pollenated rose seeds be good?
Q
Comments (19)
You're welcome, Luxrosa. You might as well stack the deck in your favor as much as you possibly can! I saw a great tee shirt yesterday, "I'm not CHEATING...I'm playing by MY rules!" Practicing germinating things BEFORE you create the "perfect rose" is much like that. For years while in school, I worked camera counters in department stores. It used to make me cringe to the floor for people who hit the counter with, "I'm leaving for a month in Europe tomorrow and I NEED a good camera!" Same danged thing! Start something you know nothing about and which requires some acquired skill and practice and isn't easily repeatable. Both are too heavily doomed to fail. Yes, you can repeat the cross. It's been written that Kordes repeated the cross which created Iceberg MANY times and nothing approaching as good a plant as Iceberg ever resulted. How are you going to know if your dream will work if your best chance of success doesn't work because you didn't do it at least well enough for it to have a chance? It's probably going to take you many generations to produce the type of goal you have in your mind's eye. Very often, what you'll see will be small changes at first, so keep a keen eye out for them. It will be interesting seeing how the health of the offspring vary, too. Keep in mind Ralph Moore's admonition..."Create a good plant first, it's always easy to hang a pretty flower on it later." You might also consider creating parallel breeding lines containing what you want to use, plus perhaps some of the better miniatures to help bring the size of the plants, ease of propagation and heavy, continuous repeat flowering back into the equation earlier? First generation hybrid vigor can quickly create some real monsters! For example, if you take a look at what is behind Fairy Moss, you'll find the seminal cross of Pinocchio (3' floribunda) with William Lobb (6'-8' moss) resulted in a 20' moss shrub, from observation of the remaining original plants which grew at Sequoia until its demise. One cross with a miniature tamed the beast to a miniature. Perhaps, if you created some Tea/mini and Alba/mini hybrids, crossing them may result in combining the traits you desire in better plants, more quickly and efficiently? Mr. Moore had discovered minis act like bridges from one section of the family to another, very often increasing the health, vigor, ease of propagation, intensifying flowering and other benefits, along the way. Stripes and moss exist in modern roses today because he was able to bring them out of the Old Garden Roses through miniatures and back into larger moderns. Every striped modern rose traces its origin back to Little Darling and Ferdinand Pichard. His various permutations of this cross, further enhanced by running them through his miniatures, mostly bred from R. Wichurana to improve health, vigor and ease of rooting, resulted in cleaning up many of Ferdinand Pichard's health and vigor issues. You can create similar breeders easily. Select those which have a solid reputation for health and fertility and begin creating hybrids of them with your selected Teas and Albas. Select your hybrids and begin breeding your selections. Engineer in the traits you desire from the foundation so they are more homogenized from the ground up, instead of losing half of them somewhere down the line when you find the need to include other genes to tame the plant, or improve the health, or introduce repeat flowering, etc. Because of moving from a more arid, disease free climate to more of the fog belt last year, I've recently had to rethink and re engineer my own breeder list to improve health. Very healthy, good minis are out there and they are easily obtained. It was never an issue where diseases aren't issues. It IS where they are. Yes, Linda, it is POSSIBLE for foreign pollen to be involved in a self set cross. It just hasn't been shown to be that PROBABLE. Species, wild roses, all have tremendous variation possible within their genes. There are cases of hybridization where they overlap. Species are far more fertile generally than garden roses. Very often, it's because they are single flowers, only one row of petals. That is all that exists naturally without human beings practicing "unnatural selection". Every time you increase a row of petals, you reduce a row of stamen and anthers, reducing fertility. Nature stacks the deck in her favor by not promoting double flowers for very long. They occur, but very seldom last where the single permutation is the more desirable for perpetuation of the species. When those natural hybrids occur, it's also where hundreds, if not thousands, of blooms of the same type are present so the insect pollinator or the wind, is so saturated with the same pollen, it occurs. That would very seldom occur in the average garden where so few of the same rose is grown. If you were a commercial grower, producing hundreds to thousands of the same plant en masse, perhaps. It was common for "breeders" to plant multiple varieties in the hole together in hopes there would be some cross pollination. But, when you read the old rose books and virtually everything raised from those methods was condemned as inferior and nearly synonymous to the originals, it's obvious very little, if any cross pollination occurred. Particularly with the Hybrid Perpetual class, they were sorted by "Types", not just because they grew like the archetype for the section, but very often because they were virtually identical, so if you grew the best, you knew the rest. Grow a bunch of self set seed from any of your garden roses and see what I mean. Most will greatly resemble what they were raised from and many will be inferior. Not all, but the vast majority. You will find variations, and the wider/wilder the cross which created the rose being used for seed was, the wider and wilder the variations will be. If you raise seed from a Hybrid Tea which contains nearly the same ancestors on both sides of its cross, you don't have much with which to work and most are going to come out inferior versions of the original. But, if you look at something like Cardinal Hume, which has a very wide variety of types and classes on both sides of his family tree (yes, some over lap and repetition, but much other different material there to stir things up), you can see why self set seed from him has created such a wide range of results, from dwarf versions to greatly differing colors and plant sizes. It CAN be possible to find interesting things in self set seed, but your best potential comes from roses with such diverse backgrounds, just as they mostly do from deliberate crosses. Trade organizations such as the AARS were officially originally created to prevent the importation and distribution of inferior roses, those similar to but inferior to what was already being sold here to prevent the destruction of the industry. Ellwanger and Foster-Mellier among others, attempted to perform those similar functions, to alert the reader that there was a lot of junk on the market. It has been a continuous problem from the earliest days of rose commerce, both here and abroad, and will continue to be as long as people are willing to take chances on the unknown. As long as you can chalk up the failures and money wasted to "at least I tried", you'll probably have fun. Once you hit the regret that you wasted the time, effort and money, then it's a problem. Fostering the business of providing inferior products and service by monetarily supporting it, voting with our dollars, does hurt everyone and the industry on the whole.
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Sungold Question...
Q
Comments (5)
No need to worry about pollination. There is the very very remote chance that with the stamen exerted it could be cross pollinated. It would not matter to you unless you were to save the seed from that particular fruit to grow out next year. Even then you most likely would not know what was what, as you would get one of the parents or crosses of the parent of the sungold. I don't think anyone has dehybridized the sungold. I got a small pear sized, oblong shaped fruit that tasted horrible from my first try.
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How are Sungold seeds produced?
Q
Comments (19)
But it actually raises an interesting thought: For the heirloom tomatoes to come true from seed, they (like the Sungold's inbred parent lines) must be entirely homozygous at every loci. Otherwise you would get variation in the progeny. **** True that OP's should be homozygous for all genes but despite that one can see biological diversity, genetically, within a specific variety b'c nothing is static in terms of seed germplasm. Those with eyes that can see can put out 10 plants of a specific variety and see subtle differences in leaf form, internode distances, etc. (Which means that the heirlooms are stable because they're so inbred they've lost all extraneous genetic variability. Who would have thought that the Sungold F1 has more inherent genetic diversity than Brandywine?) As I mentioned above OP's are not devoid of the capacity for genetic variability. Since most of the many parental inputs into hybrids, Sungold F1 included, are single genes for some systemic disease tolerances, high solids content, the uniform ripening gene so there are no green shoulders, etc., that doesn't necessarily say that there's more genetic variability with Sungold F1 or ANY hybrid as I see it than there is in an heirloom variety. it's been estimated that about 95% of the heirloom varieties arose by natural cross pollination and then someone making selections from that initial hybrid and stabilizing it out to a stable OP, so there's lots of genes in there from two other complete genomes that have sorted themselves out by gene segregation as the selection process goes forward. The other 5% of heirlooms are said to come from mutation from existing varieties whether that be by Seed DNA mutations or more rarely by somatic DNA mutations within the DNA of a plant cell. Carolyn
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Sungold's Wild 'Splitting' Gene???
Q
Comments (21)
Carolyn, Thanks for the input. That's what I was looking for ... someone who has grown several different "wild" tomatoes or tomatoes with a "wild" parent to tell me if the tendency for radical splitting pictured in the original post is typical to those types of tomatoes. Let me clarify what I meant when I said, "I never had a Indian Stripe split open like that regardless of rain." As you know, I only grew Indian Stripe one year ... 2006 ... but that was a very hot summer with a week or so of torrential rain coinciding with the Indian Stripe getting ripe in July. Yes, as I said above, the 2006 Indian Stripe had "an occasional random skin split ... but not anything radical." What I meant is, yes, the Indian Stripe would exhibit a skin split in a random pattern sometimes vertically, but usually horizontal around the belt of the fruit with some irregularity in the direction ... NOT a radical, vertical chasm from the calyx to the blossom end and bleeding seeds as shown in the pictures above. Also, as I said in the original post, "the Sungold I grew and used for this cross only split like this when dead ripe and hit with a heavy rain" meaning the Sungold would split from stem to stern in a big ugly chasm just like what is shown in the pictures above. That's why I thought just maybe the tendency to split open from stem to stern, vertically, as shown in the pictures in the original post, might be a characteristic carried into the cross by the Sungold parent and specifically associated with the interior structure of the fruit ... two or three proportionally large seed cells as opposed to Indian Stripe structure which looks like this: Oh my gosh ... look at that ... there is a skin split right there on the left hand half-tomato right at 3:00 (90* azimuth) ... but notice the skin split doesn't open through the interior wall, bursting the fruit and spilling the seeds and gel. So, I may be imagining things here, I admit, because just about any thin skinned tomato I've grown will split its skin in a heavy rain following a dry spell, right? But again ... I'm talking about the degree of splitting shown in the pictures in the original post. Maybe I should characterize it as "bursting" rather than "splitting." Then I might say I don't remember seeing tomatoes burst open, stem to stern, when they had an interior structure like say this. And none of these heavy walled tomatoes burst open or even split in 2006 and were grown right next to the Indian Stripe and in the same row as some Sugar Lumps which did burst open exactly like the Sungold and the F1 shown in the original post. Here's an example of a very heavy walled fruit that didn't split in that garden. But, again, thanks for the input as it is what I was asking for. Since there are several "wild" tomatoes or tomatoes with one "wild" parent that you point out don't tend to burst as shown, I need to look further into the particular structure of the walls and locules to see if there is something there that indicates this weakness. Bill
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aka_peggy
16 years ago
I much prefer the hybrid of this tomato and I've grown them all side by side accept for the select II. The hybrid is slightly larger and has a distinctive taste that the others lack.

Lee, how did the various sungolds rate at the tomatopalooza?
lee_71
16 years ago
Sungold Select II rated very high. This is one that many
really liked, but most still say Sungold F1 is better for the
reasons you and Carolyn have mentioned.

I do have a co-worker who actually prefers Sungold Select II.
His claim is that is has more of a true tomato taste than the
sweetness of Sungold F1.

I just like having tomatoes my kids will eat off the vine! It was tough to bring the ones in the picture above to the taste testing. My 2 year old kept eating them when we weren't looking!

Lee
dott22
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks for the replies and the pic. At least the Sungold Select II looks like the F1.

Is Reinhard still attempting to improve his strain? Do you have any idea how many plants he's growing out per year to try to stabilize that plant? I was considering playing with that myself. But, if I could do like 20 plants and he's doing 1000, then it wouldn't be much point.
vegomatic
16 years ago
For the past four years I've done growouts of seeds saved from the original F1. Most of my first attempts were not true or even close. Many were awful and bitter, but a tiny-fruited one was super-sweet. Finally last season, we got pretty close, but as others have noted, they were still not exactly, precisely a "Sungold." However, for the first time, I didn't have to cull out the "half-breeds" and label them. We could put them all together in a bowl with the F1's and just enjoy the different flavors, as they were all pretty tasty.

I have four or five lines going that I will continue selections from again this season. One typical "type" was yellow and a tear-drop shape. Another more reddish, like the Select II pictured above. Another was the proper orange, but a bit small and not quite as sweet. Unlike my previous attempts, all were quite good, each in their own way. The generations that I'm currently refining are F3 to F5.

I also traded seed with another grower who got a lucky volunteer and grew it out, so we're going to try that one as well this year. I don't have a lot of space to experiment, so it has taken awhile to make a serendipitious pick out of the various generations of saved seeds.

So as not to be without the genuine article, I made a hasty order to Burpees for fresh Sungold seed. I have hopes I'll eventually stabilize something that's as similar to the original as I can get.

-Ed
carolyn137
16 years ago
Is Reinhard still attempting to improve his strain? Do you have any idea how many plants he's growing out per year to try to stabilize that plant? I was considering playing with that myself. But, if I could do like 20 plants and he's doing 1000, then it wouldn't be much

****

While I didn't ask Reinhard specifically about continuing his work with Sungold I know from recent communication with him that he has many other projects going that i think interest him more and I doubt that anyone is going to get closer to the F1 than the current Sungold Select II.

The way I see it Sungold F1 seeds aren't that expensive, most folks usually grow but one plant for home use, seeds are viable for many years, so I continue to use F1 seed.

Carolyn
carolyn137
16 years ago
While I didn't ask Reinhard specifically about continuing his work with Sungold I know from recent communication with him that he has many other projects going that i think interest him more and I doubt that anyone is going to get closer to the F1 than the current

*****

I need to correct what I said above after getting an e-mail from Reinhard this morning, mainly about some other stuff.

He is continuing with his Sungold Project and aiming for Sungold Select III and he's been doing some more backcrosses to try and capture even more of that Sungold F1 taste.

Carolyn
dott22
Original Author
16 years ago
Lee, are you crossing your plants with the F1's or any other plants or basicly letting them self pollenate. I have some extra space this year and I'm thinking of trying some of this type work myself. Also, you mentioned small super-sweet; those sound tasty...

Carolyn, thanks for the info. If he can get that thing figured out, he'll have some hot seeds.
outsiders71
16 years ago
Where can you find SunGold Select II seeds?
outsiders71
16 years ago
*BUMP*

I can't find the SunGold Select II anywhere :(.
deanriowa
15 years ago
I have the same question, where can Sungold Select or Select II be purchased? Is it only available through Reinhard Kraft?

I thought I read somewhere that a Sungold Select III might be in the future, anymore info about that?

thanks,
Dean
lee_71
15 years ago
I have seeds and may be listing SG Select II in SSE next
year....

Lee
carolyn137
15 years ago
I thought I read somewhere that a Sungold Select III might be in the future, anymore info about that?

****

Dean, I'm the one who wrote that after an e-mail exchange with Reinhard Kraft this past Spring.

All he said was that he was working on a Sungold Select III by doing some back crosses and that's all that was said. Absolutely NO timeline indicated b'c he doesn't know himself how long it will take to accomplish what he wants to do.

I'm sure you know that he was also the person who was responsible for getting Sungold Select and Sungold Slect II out there.

Carolyn
deanriowa
15 years ago
Carolyn, Thank you for the information about Sungold Select III.

Does Sungold Select I or II have a similar sweetness of the original or what are the differences other than size that have been noticed?

thanks,
Dean
carolyn137
15 years ago
Dean, I grow only the F1 hybrid so can't tell you from personal experience which is better of I and II.

From feedback I read online I think it's safe to say that most folks seem to prefer Sungold II.

But you're the only person I've ever seen who has said there's a size difference between I and II. I haven't seen anyone else make that comment. ( smile)

Carolyn
deanriowa
15 years ago
aka_peggy said: "The hybrid is slightly larger and has a distinctive taste that the others lack."

So should I assume the Sungold Hybrid is larger then the Sungold Selects?

thanks,
Dean
kdawg
15 years ago
Just curious: Why is the Sungold so hard to dehybridize? I don't know much about the process, but I thought that while it can sometimes take growing dozens of plants over as many as eight generations, it is possible to create a stable OP version of pretty much everything.
miesenbacher
15 years ago
I'm growing Sungold Select II this year as well. After growing the real deal F1 last year I too wanted an OP version and got my seed from Manfred Hahm. I should have some seed available in a couple months and if you want to try them send me an e-mail in September. Ami
carolyn137
15 years ago
aka_peggy said: "The hybrid is slightly larger and has a distinctive taste that the others lack."
So should I assume the Sungold Hybrid is larger then the Sungold Selects?

****

Peggy said that in her experience the F1 was slightly larger than Sungold Select. I clearly missed that and wonder if it would happen the second time those two would be grown in the same season.

So Peggy, your comment is indeed the first one regarding size that I have seen.

Just speaking personally now, I don't make conclusions about most varieties after growing them just once. There are just too many darn variables to deal with each year.

In the current thread on growing huge tomatoes one person said that variety X was huge but had grown that variety just one time before recommending it as one to grow to get large ones all the time. Point and counterpoint.

Carolyn
lee_71
15 years ago
The Sungold Select IIs I'm growing this year are about 50%
larger than the sungolds I'm growing.

However, I attribute that to environmental not varietal factors. (ie, sun, soil, moisture)

Lee
carolyn137
15 years ago
Just curious: Why is the Sungold so hard to dehybridize? I don't know much about the process, but I thought that while it can sometimes take growing dozens of plants over as many as eight generations, it is possible to create a stable OP version of pretty much everything

*****

Ask yourself this. How many OP versions of well known current hybrids have you see done ?

Not many. Perhaps Sungold is the only one.

Hybrids bred back in the 40's and 50's had, most of the time, just two parents so it was not impossible to get a stable OP version , but that OP version was not necessarily the same as the F1 as regards taste, etc.

There are about 400 organic molecules that have been IDed by mass spectroscopy that are associated with taste, so they say, and not one gene has been found that corresponds to any one molecule/

Modern hybrids can have up to 8 parental inputs, 4 in each of the two breeding lines of which the last OP selection in each line is crossed with the other one to make the F1 hybrid.

Very complex.

So no, I don't think it's possible to create a genetically stable OP of almost anything that mimics the orginal F1.

I've seen OP versions of Big Boy and Better Boy offered and I was involved with doing an OP of the F1 Ramapo that turned out well, but all three of these had but two parental inputs into the F1.

Carolyn

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