I kind of agree with both halfdecaf an kailuamom's perspective: first, I think that we can't really fault the original speaker because we don't really know what he said. There are some versions of what he said that make perfect sense to me, others that don't, lets give him the benefit of the doubt and not attack a "philosophy" that he, himself, has not explained to us.The original post's vesion of the speaker's words made me think of how annoying rote "sorry's" are *especially* when they've been demanded of a child, given, and then abandoned. I'm thinking of the kid who spills something at your house and never says sorry except that the parent demands they do and then...nothing...they run off and play and the parent cleans up. Or the kid who viciously pushes your kid in the park and says "sorry" when told to but then the parents and kid walk away from you and your sobbing, snot smeared child. I think we would all be in agreement that a coerced sorry is not sufficient and that an educational method that relied *only* on coercion to produce the word but not on coercion or serious practice to change the behavior would be at fault. I'd like to read the speaker's words in the most generous way and figure that he's saying that sorry alone is not enough and that we have to work, long and hard, with kids to make them the kind of people who can realize that they have hurt someone else and take affirmative steps to make the hurt right. It sounds like kailuamom and I have the same kids, or the same parenting strategy. Neither of my children has any trouble saying they are sorry--and really meaning it. I don't mean "sorry for stepping on your toe" or "sorry for being a jerk" but like this "I'm sorry, mommy, that you are having to take me out to my friend's birthday party when you aren't feeling so well. Thank you for doing it." Or "I'm sorry that you had to make me soup and crackers (because I"m sick) when you already made a different dinner for everyone else." In other words, their sense of what they are doing, their duties towards other people, extend far beyond "don't step on people's toes" to "don't inconvenience people" and "don't take other people's kind actions for granted." I remember another mother in my baby group with my firstborn asking me "how I *made* her so empathetic?" and I just cracked up, you can't make someone empathetic. but you certainly can work on them, and have to work on them, to make them attentive to those around them. So sure we start out, even when they are babies, saying "oh! I'm so sorry you fell down! let me kiss it" and saying to them "oh, say sorry to little dulcibella for grabbing her toy." But as they get older our strategies for working with them and modeling for them have to get more sophisticated because they are more sophisticated. Modeling the behavior you want is the first thing you have to do but how many of us are even more self centered than our children? How many times do we demonstrate to them that we take the actions, gifts, griefs, etc...of other people for granted? IF the only "sorry"s they see are ungracious they will be ungracious. If they see their parents courteously deferring to each other, to the grandparents, to strangers they are going to learn (eventually) that "Sorry" goes a lot farther than just a word said after an incident, its a whole way of thinking about the situation and the other person. If you are still ordering at ten year old, or a fifteen year old, to say sorry you need to rethink your educational strategy because its not working. By the time they are fifteen most social behaviors should be pretty well engrained--or else they are rebelling against them for reasons that need discussion and airing. At that point they are also old enough to experience the natural consequences of failure to observe social niceties, as well as failure to be empathetic. If you are a jerk to your cousins or your friends, well, they won't play with you. If you are a jerk to your older relatives or older people, well, they won't do whatever things you've been counting on them to do. If a ten or fifteen year old kid behaves badly and doesn't say they are sorry--or even behaves selfishly and seems unaware of it--then just forcing them to say sorry (though it may be necessary) j ust isn't enough. So I guess I'm saying that I can see situations in which the original speaker is absolutely right--of course if he really said what was described I think he's an idiot. But there has never been a shortage of idiot motivational speakers. abfab

We redid our master bathroom 2.5 years ago so I feel qualified to weigh in and ditto some of what other people have already said. We did something kind of like a pony wall but shower - it is just a bench seat in the shower that the glass then sits on top of. See photos below. In general here are some of my other tidbits of advice: 1. Do radiant heat flooring. We live in Atlanta and it doesn't even get all the cold here but I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE it in the winter time. And it really isn't all that expensive. We did small 2x2'' tiles on the shower floor and I like the variation it gives. Haven't had a problem with cleaning those - however, I also did 4x4 on the side of the bench and the grout between those can get grimy. 3. Along the same lines - do NOT do tile on top of the pony wall or the ledge where the shower glass will sit. We did and this is the one of only two things I would change about our remodel. The grout lines under the shower glass door get slimy. Do one solid piece of granite, corian, or cultured marble. We did the top of our bench seat in the shower cultured granite and it works great. Cheaper than other options but still looks nice. A remant piece of granite would have done the trick too. (On a side note, the other change I wish I had done was 4 rectangular pieces of cultured granite around the drop in tub instead of tile for the same reason more or less. I priced it out for one giant piece but you pay for the part that is cut out for the tub and it was ridiculous. I just didn't even think through doing it with 4 small pieces.) 3. If you are doing two shower heads, which I'd recommend, put both controllers on the same side, near the door. This way, you don't get wet when you turn on the "far" controller. 4. We did a small 28'' glass door which is slightly smaller than what most people do but it is perfect. 4. Lastly, ditto on the two shampoo niches. We have "his and hers" which means I can have 5 bottles of shampoo in my niche without annoying my husband. Hope that helps. Apparently I need to go check out the bathroom forum side and give my advice via expertise over there.

It's amazing how reliant so many of us get on these things! Yes I have a new one and getting it organized a bit. I haven't buried my old friend yet. I'm going to see if a heart transplant can bring life back. Been wanting a second one anyway. I have plenty of machines around I could get a desktop put together but the notebook is so much more convenient. The worst part is how it happened two days before I needed to head out of town for a picnic. And of course all planning, checklists, etc, were in there! So my memory got tested. But I survived it and had a good time. Used some of the time at the motel to download some of the huge files too. 135mb just for Windows updates. Then of course antivirus, spyware programs, etc. Thanks all for the kind words. But the reminder for building a "naughty chair" is in the old computer so it'll be a while before that'll happen! ;) I'm getting some thunder here so I suppose I'd better log off. Don't need the new one to get zapped.

I hope you won't shut up and knuckle under, Bart. Sounds like you came from an intolerant background. But you all do sound like an echo chamber. Guess it's nice to have common values. I think I value human rights too. Maybe re the bathroom issue human rights trump people's comfort zones, but I think forcing people on this issue is itself intolerant. People change gradually. IMO gradual change can be more lasting and more valid as it may come from the heart. Sometimes maybe there is not time to wait around for that. It's debatable. IMO Martin Luther King had it right as he didn't demonize anyone. He treated people like he wanted them to exist, to be around, to contain a different attitude and to relate to better to. Not to pound into oblivion, shame into like mindedness, trivialized, etc. IMO race relations and acceptance of gays got a lot better through the last half of the century and beyond. I think it came from the heart. From just living, discovering friends, finding that relationships were valuable, people who used to live more apart could work together. I know I took joy in it. The demonizing and force work against all that. The appropriation of identity politics issues. Some do it in a cynical way I believe.