Jojo and Jodik , I really LOVE this post..I never saw anyone say that "organics" never work, did you guys? Or that they work as well if not better than "chemical"...But my understanding is that sometimes "organices" can, depending on what happens in a container, and sometimes not.. I am not willing to take that risk with my plants anymore. I am done with depending what happens in my containers, and playing God, "Mother Nature" to figure it out. I am not a follower of some diety, or leader, because I feel this way. The insults around here are enough to make anyone spit, and I can tell you that "AL", a gracious human being is not one of them. Thanks Al for setting a good example in kindness! Hi Steve, and everyone else! Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 11:06 About fertilizers: Plants do not care from where their elemental nutrition comes. Chemical forms of fertilizer are no better than organic are no better than chemical ..... with qualifications. Any organic molecule (basically - something containing carbon and that was once alive) will have its nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains that will require the aid of biotic soil populations to cleave (unlock). So, organic fertilizers depend on the population densities of soil microorganisms. By nature, organic nutrient supplementation programs in container culture are unreliable and erratic in their ability to deliver nutrients. The reason why is simple: as noted, delivery of nutrients depends on the organic molecules being broken down in the gut of micro-organisms, and micro-organism populations are boom/bust, varying widely in container culture. Some of the things affecting the populations are container soil pH, moisture levels, nutrient levels, soil composition, compaction/aeration levels ..... of particular importance is soil temperatures. When container temperatures rise too high, microbial populations diminish. Temps much under 55* will slow soil biotic activity substantially, reducing or halting delivery of nutrients and possibly inducing ammonium toxicity issues. Chemical fertilizers, on the other hand, are extremely reliable & immediately available for uptake in elemental form. I offer this information from a physiological perspective only. You'll need to work out the organic/inorganic issue for yourself. I want to avoid that argument & adopt a 'to each his own' attitude about it, but it is much easier for me/most of us to help/guide those who use chemical forms of fertilizer because their problems are usually much easier to pinpoint. From the perspective of minimizing potential problems, making sure that plants get all the nutrients they need - and even in the right ratio, w/o fertility levels getting too high, and results, I think fertilizers like Miracle-Gro, Osmocote, and other immediately soluble fertilizers win - hands down. I know you asked for advice from organic growers, but I still thought you may wish to be armed with some info, in case you're not already set in your decision. Take good care & good luck in the next growing season. ;o) Al -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Organic gardening in a container clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 11:55 Nice, thorough response, Al :-)) I was the one that directed Ellen here - knew she'd get better container info on this forum than on the Organics. I have a question for you......have you tested or do you know how effective liquid organic formulations might be as a fertilizer source for containers? I'm thinking of the fish or kelp emulsions in particular or the fully soluble liquid products that are available through some organic suppliers (which I assume are also pretty similar in content to the other two, although I've not researched to confirm). As long as the product is fully soluble, a complete fert and contains at least some trace nutrients, won't they offer the same benefits as a soluble synthetic/chemical? And if so, wouldn't they be a suitable organic alternative for those growing numbers of container gardeners that adhere to organic gardening principles? YPP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Organic gardening in a container clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 14:00 The thing is, that plants absorb nutrients molecule by molecule and though it looks like fish and seaweed emulsions are soluble - they aren't. When you mix them with water, they form a suspension of gigantic organic molecules that are much too large to pass through cell walls. They still require the activity of soil biota to break the molecules down into usable elements. If soil biota is low, these elements remain in the soil or are only slowly digested. You can see deficiencies when there is more than enough of the deficient nutrient(s) in the soil, but they are just unavailable. You may get the idea that you need to fertilize again and again to correct symptoms, and that can be a problem. Since the organic fertilizers tent to more readily carry-over, you can apply fertilizer several times with no results, and when the cultural conditions in the soil next become favorable to soil biota, you get a massive release of nutrients and don't have a clue what happened. I copy/pasted part of my reply above from another of my posts, so I'm not sure that I mentioned that trying to promote high soil biota populations to insure nutrient delivery can also quickly collapse soils because they feed on soil particles. I realize there is some movement in commercial container growing toward using teas & using other methods to promote soil biota, but if you notice, they are generally companies forced to do so to preserve their 'organic grower' status, or companies that specialize in bringing a crop to sale quickly, so rapid soil collapse never becomes an issue Sorrrry 4 any spelng erors..:-)

The biological world that needs to happen in such a perfect manner and consistently is makes no use to use any organic fertilizer in containerized plants. You’d be surprise at how much money is made on that and how much money people spend. There is a lot more to it than what I said but I have spent hundreds of dollars with no good results I wish I had saved before I ever discovered this particular forum. Not a one person I know very successful with perfect growing container plants uses organic fertilizers anymore except for in ground. One good fertilizer that gives your plants everything they need is all that is needed. Then of course growing conditions plays a huge part too Mike

My garden is on Fire Island, about 500 ft. from the beach, protected by a tall fence, and has almost pure, very acidic sand as a growing medium. I need to water (and the sprinklers/drip hoses are on timers, since it's a weekend house) and I do add peat moss, compost and hydrogel to the sand, along with osmocote (slow release fertilizer). Still, as spmimi above says, it's really just glorified sand and you need to find plants that tolerate or actually enjoy it. Through trial and error, I've found a lot that do. The limiting factor is not drought or salt as much as the soil texture (very coarse) and the pH (4.5 to 5.0). Other people haul in lots of loamy topsoil and have those wooden raised bed things, but I didn't want to play that game or suffer the expense and bother that goes with it. I thought nature, in her glorious variety, would provide plenty of choices for these conditions, and the old girl came through. These comments will only be helpful if your conditions are like mine. I'd do a pH test first thing. I've failed spectacularly with yarrow (Achillea), lavender, Russian sage (Perovskia), rudbeckia, gaillardia, echinacea, coreopsis, euphorbia, agastache, wall flowers and sea holly. Other things that sounded perfect, like sea lavender and sea kale, bombed. Austrian pine (Pinus nigra) gets too many diseases, as does Japanese black pine (Pinus thunbergii). Stay away from those. I'd also forego blue spruce (Picea pungens), since they really don't enjoy our climate. If you'd like a pine and your conditions are like mine, pitch pine (Pinus rigida) is the best. Japanese white pine (Pinus parviflora) and mugo pine (Pinus mugo) are also very good. When you are talking trees, it's good to have things that are guaranteed to succeed, since you don't want to replace them all the time like perennials and annuals. Black cherry (Prunus serotina), red cedar (Juniperus virginiana and almost every other kind of juniper), tupelo (Nyssa sylvatica), sassafras (Sassafras albidum), American holly (Ilex opaca), post oak (Quercus stellata), service berry (Amelanchier sp.) and red maple (Acer rubrum) are all native to the seashore area, some in dry places and some in wet. Be aware that black cherry is a messy tree and not good to place over driveways, streets or patios. But the birds sure enjoy them. I see willows and poplars around a lot, but they are also very messy trees, and short-lived. The cliche tree of all time, red-leaf Japanese maple, is frequently planted, but the leaves usually burn and they never look great. I've been delighted that evergreen southern magnolia (Magnolia grandiflora) does very well, but it's a good idea to get a hardy cultivar such as 'Edith Bogue' or 'Bracken's Brown Beauty'. Even if you don't want a tree, these are worth pruning and training flat and tying on to a fence, if such a garden task appeals to you. The leaves are stunning, as are the flowers, in June. I'm currently testing smoke tree...

This was a general overall observation on all the Forums, not directed to individuals. All members have experience and knowledge also. Many have results that contradict the statements against Organic Container Culture and other posted topics. There are disagreements among the researchers themselves on this topics. These have observations, test results , and empirical measurements. Agree lack of Patience with people who don't understand the meaning of info or don't even bother to read post accurately is a personal limitation, As I stated no links, detailed controlled tests results given by those making claims against Organics. I just like quality and open info, not everything that fits other's beliefs. Not listen to me I am an expert, plus throw out a few technical buzz words or jargon. Forget egos everyone makes errors learns, and improves from the them. Even the PHD's vary in quality, and honesty. We used to call PHD "Piled Higher and Deeper". The soil scientists are learning new things constantly, that have changed previous thought. The whole interest in Mycorrizhae and BioChar is fairly recent. Debating is a waste of time without the exchange of Data, Test Parameters, and Measurements. Sidenote Addition: Someone showed 2 plants one organic dry fertilizer and one fertigation. Stated liquid plant larger than other. But failed to mention the plant received 1 1/2 to 2 times more Nitrogen than the other in the application. Parameters are important. In addition a portion of dry fertilizers are water soluble, and listed on the labels. Addition 2: Science is not only a collection of Knowledge. It is also a methodology for collecting data and experimenting as new information becomes available. It is not defending Dogma or current Paradigms A serious investigator will adjust, and look into new information or Phenomena . Not dismiss things immediately . This is what I mean, some call it Scientism. Just overall disappointed with the Forums, with a few exceptions. I see people attacked and ridiculed because they do things different. The term I am doing it means it is currently in practice and is empirical , Theory is just an idea or thought without implementation. As far as Fertilizers, one can use both Dry Fertilizers as the base maintenance amount, supplemented with Fish emulsion or Other soluble Organic. Doesn't have be to either or. This is common practice in Non Organic Methods with a CRF Base amount, with supplemental ferigation. Organics usually start a little slower , but catch up after a short period, just have to keep it sustained afterward. This can be done with small frequent amounts of Dry Fertilizers also. Some Organics can act quickly, and can burn plants if too much is used (ie Bloodmeal, Sulphate of Potash). The solubility of Rock minerals is increased by acids, either natural or manufactured( ex. Superphoshate, Rock Phosphate treated with Sulfuric Acid). A person can share information, personal results, and techniques. But an Individual must prove things to themselves, it is difficult to impossible to be done externally. It is found that soil life can vary greatly with locations, and climates. All this food for microbes from OM is interesting since most soils contain 2% to 5% OM at best. Plus limited to the topsoil. Soilless mixes range from 50 to 75% OM, microbes multiple quickly when conditions are good so numbers are no problem. A Few photos of the Mycorrizhae Flourishing in Containers: Some with Mushrooms or Puffballs, fruiting bodies of the Ecto Mycorrizhae ( Pines, Oaks, plus others). Spores are wind or water spread. But Endo or VAM ( not visible )used by majority of plants,must be added via spores in some cases on disturbed areas or sterile media. VAM fungi is seen to spread from undisturbed areas about 3 to 6 feet a year. VAM fungi is also spread by animals( gophers and other burrowing animals). Containers were inoculated via water during irrigation. The fungi live in and on the plant roots aiding the plant in getting water and nutrients form soil and mulch surface layer. They will will go dormant to survive stress. Photos and Data from Container Tree Nursery Manual, Communication, and Data received from Tom Landis USFS Nursery Specialist. No problem with temps affecting the fungi, just try not to disturb the hyphae as little as possible. Many Growers culture their own with host plants, then let media slowly dry. The media and roots are chopped and used as inoculate. The collection of soil from native habits or burying rice in mesh bags or stockings in the ground for several months has been used also for fungi and microbe starter cultures. Pulverized mushrooms in solution is used for Ecto type also. Alliums like onions are heavy VAM users, and often used as culture plant in combination with grasses, and Legumes. Some Plants species don't have root hairs, and depend on Mycorrizhae. Pro Mix Video Links on Mycorrizhae in soiless medium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIecCXp4XUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V1OEMoNELY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s22yZ_qPR3U&nohtml5=False https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq59LM99QNU&nohtml5=False Groasis Water Box Vegetable No fertilizer Mycorrizhae trials in ground. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXycR9zmPFY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVuxEZ9BH0o&nohtml5=False https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-uLTVgKvPo&nohtml5=False https://www.groasis.com/en/technology/better-growing-results-with-the-groasis-technology-in-combination-with-micorrizas