Generally speaking, yes and no. Sixteen years may be a long time in our fast-paced world. In the largest town nearest me, shopping centers of the '80's are obsolete and being torn down. The late '70's revamping of the city center, heralded as modern and cutting edge at that time, is now viewed as ugly and detrimental to the city--citizens and civic leaders alike want a new urban look. The question may be: "Is 16 years long or short term?"

On the other hand, there are many, many projects with a shelf life longer than 16 years. Just a thought on the elasticity of time.

I am going to google this Tampa project to see what I can see.

G.

Here is an excellent article and photos about the site, its hx, maintenance issues, etc. Interesting look into the world of architectural design, politics, urban isues including the homeless, and so on. Apparently the plaza is the only landscape design ever to make it onto the National Register of Historic Places

http://www.tclf.org/kiley_tampa.htm

This is an excellent restoration topic -- hello out there . . .

Ink,
The obvious answer to your question is that when designing maintenance should be upper most in one's mind. As I clicked on the site Ginger posted and then did more searching on Kiley's Tampa project, viewed the available pictures it became apparent why this design will become dust. Noted that a glass stream which provided light to underground parking was removed some time ago due to cost of maintenance. Look at all those squares of concrete set into grass. The stoleniferous southern grasses will quickly cover such walk features. Probably a crew has to weedwhack around each of those stepping stones once a month to control the grass. What a job for a municipal, overworked, underpaid crew! Kiley's Tampa design is wonderful and worthy of awards. But sadly, in the real world, there are very few willing or with the dollars to preserve this type of treasure. The challenge of creating a cutting edge design (or any design) that can be reasonably maintained is a part of the art of landscape design.

Ginger--this IS an interesting topic. Perhaps everyone isoutside playing in the mud?

It seems to me that this is a case for form trumping function--and paying for it. This is a classic example of an architiect not worrying about the functionality of his vision--Frank Lloyd Wright did the same thing...when a client complained that the roof leaked on her dining room table Mr Wright's reply was :"Move the table." Not terribly helpful or practical...

Is it irresposnible to "[design] for short term gratification meanwhile ignoring or turning a blind eye towards growth and maintenance?" If I were the client who paid for such a design I would certainly think so. Moreover, if I were an architect/artist and this was my "master work" I would want to design it so that it COULD survive. Buildings/gardens that do not meet the needs/circumstances of their spaces aren't going to make it. Those, however, that do are FAR more likely to survive and be a credit to the vision of their creator.

melanie

I'm guessing in Tampa, there was little emotional attachment for the design. The concrete grids seem to me uninviting. In Florida sun, they are perhaps hot and glaring. Some boxcar art would humanize the place.
Milwaukee has a lakefront park. They use channels of water to reflect sculpture and trees. The seagulls are kept at bay using disconcerting loadspeaker bird calls, so there are ways to maintain this type of design. Other high maintenance public spaces endure. Although the pictures listed do not give the sense of grand design, I have not been to this place in person, so perhaps I am missing the genius. I have seen green spaces developed in high crime areas. If the design is inspiring, or just pretty, there is little vandalism. If it were a single ancient oak tree, there would be people chained to it to preserve it.

I would have to agree that with all that has been said above. In its current state, this installation should be removed, partly because of the overwelming maintenence issues (as Nandina points out), and partly because it is an ugly representation of post war modern design, and better usage could be made of the property. But the main reason it will not survive is that it has become a derelict park populated with the homeless (according to the article), which translates to unusable (unsafe?) by the public who's taxes fund its upkeep. Unfortunately, the land will not return to a garden state, but rather be built on.
In some ways, to me anyway, the concept of this park is more a kin to an elaborate set for a Sci-Fi movie. With everything staged so precisely, the removal of portions of it (such as the water feature) make the rest seem redundant. Unlike other more naturalistic parks that are intended to grow, the plants in this sceme need to be pruned to a degree as to surpress the natural tendancies of the plants. On that point alone, this park was doomed to fail from the start. Anyway, Money rules the project. Whoever had control of the funds at the time this project was executed, had the power to decide what would be installed...

I do, however, like the idea fo a design based on the Fibonaci sequence--but then I'm married to, and the mother of, a pair of Physics majors--and the kid will probably double as a math major--so I have a soft spot in my heart for the Fibonaci (sp?) sequence.

melanie

Most interesting is the notion that 16 years may be considered a reasonable life for a project like this. There is no doubt that the park is past its sell by date but should this have been anticipated? What would you consider the lifespan of a regular garden and is it different for a public space like this? Often a designed, private garden goes when the house it is attached to sells and the new owners do it their way, should we expect something different in public gardens/parks?

This is an example of the consequences of doing public landscape maintenance on the cheap. It has gotten to the point that you are better off assuming from the start that any design is going to get minimalist maintenance that is not frequent enough and not skilled enough--mow, blow, and go from the lowest bidder--to keep a decent design intact. So landscape architects, even if they are of the plant-savvy variety, dumb down their designs. A good example is the new WWII memorial in DC. There's not a living thing in it except a few rectangular patches of turf. I had considered starting a topic about this problem, something along the lines of, "Will the public landscapes of today be considered worth preserving or restoring in the future?" but I found my thoughts on the matter too depressing.

Fran

For publicly owned places, probably the only way they will be maintained properly is if some rich person or company sets up an endowment for such maintenance.
Most people want less taxes, not more. In our area they vote down school taxes,(of course, Ohio still has not solved its school funding problem from a lawsuit filled over 10 years ago about using property tax for schools) it is unlikely that they would vote for taxes to maintain something ornamental. Since they can't control national level taxes, they like saying no locally.

Great thread INK man!!!! Seems this spring I barely have time to skim thru and read GW, let alone post my self!! ;>)

A quick thought though, (I could go a couple of hours
on this subject) James Oglethorpe's design ( to pick one favorite) has lasted for 250 years with 21 of 25 original town squares still existing in Savanah. Not all pristine not all in original shape but.....
a design with a/the future in mind. A sense of community and pride the folks in Savanah treasure.

Mr. Kiley's award winning design does not generate the same feeling. Provocative for its time, it has not with stood the test. Maintenance aside. Or because of it....
avacado green was pretty hip in the 70's too.... ;>)

I could not agree more with all of you on the concerns of design nowdays and the maintenance issue.
perry

Perry-

Motivation is also important in the preservation of buildings, landscapes, objects, etc.

Savannah is the Old South: historic,conservation and preservation-minded. Motivated to keep the old. Tampa is tourists, change, the New Florida, a city in the State of Newcomers whose population changes radically from year to year--a different environment altogether. Less motivation to preserve.

If the Oglethorp town squares had been in Tampa, they might be languishing and ready to go under the bulldozer's blade; if the Kiley park had been designed for Savannah, it might be well-cared for and treasured. Or am I being too romantic? sterotyping??

Ginger

Jill, the problem with depending on a philanthropist, either and individual or an organization, is that the money comes with strings attached. A place might find itself having to make changes to the design or its function, because the donor makes it all a condition of funding. The people with the money want to control the place, even if it means screwing it up. I experienced that in my previous job, and the results are terrible for history.

Fran

So what is the fix? If maintenance is a problem it makes sense to build a landscape that doesn't require any. But a built landscape that requires no after care is; what exactly, not the space between buildings anymore, not even the pretence of being a 'green' space. Certainly it is a massive ego stroke to demonstrate ones artistic taste by altering the landscape unless there is an altruistic or at least philanthopic motive behind it. Even then it should be sustainable though, shouldn't it?

Before we talk about a fix, INKognito, we need to spell out the problem more fully. We have to include the fact that, due to the extremely low standard of skill and limited range of tasks that are now expected from large commercial landscape crews, that what is sustainable is now defined as virtually nil. Hard to tell which is cause and effect anymore, but it's certainly a vicious circle now. But it's clear that even with money available, sometimes the work force isn't there to do what is needed, so in order for improvements in our public landscape designs to happen, there has to be the expectation that whatever a designer requires for maintenance, workers actually have those abilities. Public expectations have to rise so that demand for highly skilled maintenance is sufficient to change the mindsets of the mow-blow-go companies.

Fran

How does the city of Cincinnati manage to maintain its parks? They are lovely, restful, GORGEOUS spaces, used heavily and heartily. Lots of flowers, on trees, bushes, in beds--fabulous grass--OK, I'll admit, if you can't grow grass in Ohio you MUST be one sandwich short of a picnic. But still, Cincinnati's parks are one of the things I actually MISS about Ohio. Perhaps the "park" in Tampa failed because it was none of these things? I found it interesting on an intellectual level, but I didn't get that "ahhhh" comfort-type feeling I got in Eden Park three weeks ago. Perhaps, to be "properly" maintained, parks must speak to that need in all of us for ACTUAL green space?

What does the tribe think?

melanie/also misses Graeter's moocha chocolate chunk

Please believe me when I say pages have been written this evening to understand this topic.. And everyone I deleted.Writing is so foriegn.

So Im going to Quote someone else until I can put into words something original of thought. I think this goes well with INKcognitos last follow-up and Kileys attempt to bring Modern Architecture into the Landscape of a Public Park

ÂÂ"A landscape is thus a space deliberately created to speed up or slow down the process of nature, Elaide expresses it, it represents man taking upon himself the role of time"

Â.."A narrow and pedantic taxonomy has persuaded us that there is little or nothing in common between what used to be called civil engineering and garden or landscape architecture, but in fact from a historical perspective their more successful accomplishments are identical in result. the two professions may work for different patrons but they both reorganize space for human needs, both produce works of art in the truest sense of the sense of the term. In the contemporary world it is by recognizing this similarity of purpose that we will eventually formulate a new definition of Landscape: a composition of man-made or man-modified spaces to serve as infrastructure or backround for our collective existence; and if the backround seems inappropriately modest we should remember that in our modern use of the word it means that which underscores not only our identity and presence, but also our history.

Now my turn:

I was very happy to see the few photos on the website Ginger found. I deliberately did not read the site and only glanced at the photos to see if I knew anything the Designer was trying to teach the Public. Hears what I felt knowing nothing of Kiley or the site.

The Designer built the park in a way to preserve the Buildings Architecture. It was an unselfish loyal act towards one type of modern Architecture upholding its geometry and lines as if a monument to revel in. If Kiley did not imbue a respect "for the future" in his design and establish a succession showing our technological advances he will deny the public the human character of exploring new environments, materials and we become complacent. Kiley is brave and maybe a little reckless towards meeting the financial limitations of horticultural maintenance but he did imprint a memory that I will now have to hold onto and become more tolerant of progression.

My first impression was that of ancient city designs worldwide based upon what we now consider their superstitions and taboos. How to use the most advanced forms of thought from all fields of human development to give the public a sense of accepting their roles in society while also not fearing radical periods of advancement. In this sense is the parks design Invisible to the American citizen? Is the failure in Design not the maintenance issues of monies for and the lack of horticultural skill . Maybe the public cannot understand the political landscape and will continue to ignore the Design Principles that are richer in depth than any well pruned tree could ever be. So yes the Design could hold its own without any green. The landscape is to be seen as geometry, math , science. Preparing us for more limited urban spaces of the future. Any space that can be viewed and explained is a landscape.

I myself have always been afraid of falling behind society and sometimes reject modern art as nonsense, impractical, costly, and hard to intellectually grasp. So are most fruit Orchards when you think about it. And the connection could be made with Frances dedication to pollarding boulevards of trees bearing no fruit for the public. Seems like the Aristocrats had the last laugh. All you farmers beware of the Kings far reaching hands and if youÂre disgruntled quit the farm and prune the cities trees! The king and Government will gladly promote youre pruning skills for posterities sake.

Ok IÂm getting carried away!

My first reflection was that of Heian-Kyo, Ancient Kyoto. A city whose topo engineering was similarly based on the layout of the Diamond World Mandala Using religious diagrams representing the almost mathematical order of society and the world we live in. Along with Confucian practices, geomancy and a whole slew of techniques the Layout of that ancient city was akin to Kileys Park design. The buildings,trees,topography, and peoples movements within the Park and a Bank all somehow eerily reflect how the Asians found complex geometric patterns as the solution to progress in Gardens, Parks and Buildings.

I started imagining about the Banking elites structured hierarchy.. How the design of the park would help that institution advance themselves in the financial realm while protected by the mirror image of the parks design. A banker and his clients looking out the windows has to contemplate based on the Parks balances given and taken from each man made symmetrical pattern to create a pleasure in abstraction. Tying to find the Hierarchy in Kileys design and the contemplators position in it.

Is the design for the physical movement in space or the minds movement in another style of landscape invisible to most people. A landscape is what one can visually see upon first glance and relate to. If you cannot then you see nothing. Like a child at two years old.

This design is based upon what makes modern design and architecture good for the future of its existence. Like an investment banker creating the right atmosphere. Social Stability. Park and Bank impress guests of its wealth and status. A very highly controlled, high maintenance dedication. Blending permanent ties for the future. With TampaÂs Hurricanes, Violent storms the control of nature is very important.

WasnÂt the 80Âs a rebirth of Japanese influence. The parks unified Composition::
Plant are not center stage. Architecture and mans control is.. The park is based on illusion. The methodicall rythem of squares, rectangles and lines of symmetry is not far from the construction of ancient China and Japanese layouts. The ground plane "Jiban"Â.Divide the ground -"Chi wari"leads to the Partition of the ground plane. Japanese terms and the Kare San Sui or courtyard gardens of raked sand. Playing with abstract simple elements of Planes and volumes. Western Buildings blended with Eastern garden principles. The continuity of straight lines throughout patterns of surruonding Architecture of Bank melded into the surface patterns of the parks planer views. Patterns create multiple flower pots in a grid work pattern giving age to the introduction of concrete/patina to the surface. And making the building seem older as if the trees were growing out of its foundation. The Buildings Architecture as the principle to build the Park. Modern New Forms verses the painterly images of an English Estate. Making the builing in Tampa of condrete, glass and steel a Bueatifull objec to be viewed no longer as separate but included in the whole artistic goal of man.

The Parks grid pattern shows the eye as a tool the standard cubicle pattern reflected everywhere. No different than the Tatami Mats standardized the measurements of courtyard gardens and Architecture Kiley is trying to give us a urban scale to appreciate for the masses.. Bases on the simplicity and sculptural qualities wet rice farming had on drastically reshaping Japans farming into structured plots. The Urban environment will have to teach us to accept the same restructure into smaller spaces.

The horizontal spaces of Florida, the everglades, marshes, coastline, oceans and thousands of flat islands all give a sense of perpetual slowing down of time. Monotony and large endless expanses. The hugeness of perceived space all bringing slowness and relaxed perceptions. The building horizontal lines along with the tress horizontal lines, then shrubs show a slowing of movement. Look at the clipped hedge and it goes quickly straight towards the building up the structure and into the sky. Quick movement. The square windows are now quickly perceived as diamonds on the planer view. Quick subtle change.

I went on because the Park is a playground for one whose just learning garden design. I mean this is my first year ever giving it a chance. And the Park after only seeing six pictures was all art and history and its future. Seems more suited for modern classy people. Who donÂt want to get soiled s

16 years seems about just right for a modern garden. Its time to simplify the Design once more into a more abstract esoteric challenge for public perception. The Restoration should imbue the contemplation and less green space. Bring more focus to minimalization. Work the imagination. No money fine less trees but replaced with new vigor in surface patterns. I think by preserving too much one can stifle the imagination Keep the Design Principle going and lessen the green space..

RckyM21--

Writing may be foreign to you, but, clearly THINKING is not. wow. Your post will take some digestion. First impressions, however:

I really like your point about the horizontal and vertical elements--and using static elements to create movement. Also that it seems this is a "garden for people who don't want to get solied."

Keep thinking--and writing!

melanie

Hello Melanie,

I'm really just mimicking what I've seen others talk about

Ricky the content and quality of your post does not deserve the preamble of self-deprecation. I second Mel's *WOW*.
Ginger agree with the transient nature of Tampa/Florida but other places have survived the same problems and indeed flourish. An example that I am familiar with, would be Balboa Park in San Diego, CA. Here is a park designed for the Panama-California Exposition in 1916(?). Was supposed to be torn down after the expo. Flourishes to this day.
Maybe it is Mr. Kiley's formal design that has doomed it. It is interesting that Ricky mentions Koyoto, Japan and its wonderful gardens. Many of the gardens there are hundereds of years old. Mr. Kiley's park has Zen qualities, yes. However his garden was lacking the Zen Buddhist monks to maintain it!!
I guess the Public Work employees of Tampa just don't get the meditative value of their work!! ;>)
Even Japanese Zen gardens went through transitions from the asymmetical contol of space/ emptiness and shape interchange to more playful less formal styles. The very nature of the beast (gardens and parks)is growth and transition. The hardscape is static but not the plants you landscape with.
Is there place for a formal garden or park design? I would say yes but.... allowances need to be made somehow for the maitenance of the design. Many skilled workers out there that know the difference, maybe they are not expected to and /or required to operate at peak preformance.
What did Fran say? "Public expectations have to rise so that the demand for highly skilled maintenance is sufficient to change the mindsets of the mow-blow-go companies."

couldn't agree more Fran.....
gottta go mow& blow
Perry

It all comes down to money. I am a MainStreet Member in a community. We do all the maintenance and watering of the large fowerpots and landscape beds on the townsquare and downtown streets. This is all volunteer work. Acutally ONE dedicated volunteer. The city has no money to hire someone to take care of this. They do hire 2 highschool kids each summer who can't be trusted to do anything on their own or know a dandilion from a pansy. Then there is the Union situtaion. Just can't go create a new position, all kinds of ramifications. If you are a laborer, you can't trim trees, that is a different union classification. If you are a laboror, you can't deal with the public or do reports. (And I am NOT anti union, being the proud dw of a longtime union person). So Fran, even with public dollars there a lots of strings attached.

I just read the Cultural Landscape Foundations page on Kileys Tampa Design. Last night I chose not to read the site because I knew the topic was heavy. I wanted to write what I could and suffer for one work day knowing the discussion INKcognito started has its roots with really complicated professional levels.

By writing my thoughts without reading the sites introduction I took a chance to just be myself. The suspense all day was exciting. I couldnt wait to come home and read who Kiley is and what is the Tampa parks Design Principles.

I never heard of :
-The Golden Proportion
-Logarithmic patterns and the Fibonacci series
-Simple word, Tartan

I guess for people who use these systems with ease the Design must be so rich. I learned by writing my thoughts first after a quick glance of the photos I didnt steal anything. from the sites introduction. I saw only what I could understand and now see the Tampa Design is truly an invisible landscape. A landscape with power. Even though I'm math illiterate I felt the magic last night and read today how complex the mathematical expressions truly are between garden, building and city design.

Pretty cool stuff. A lot of fun.

This forum is giving the opportunity to travel, explore and learn with people who are continuously trying to find answers with more questions on top.

Without the constant questions found here on Garden Restoration I would be really empty of thought.

Thank You for introducing Kileys Tampa Park.

Do you think that the design failed on an intellectual level as well as a practical level? If the design alluded to esoteric principles that a Disney bred culture does not understand could it be seen as a threat? Could it be seen as alienating because it is not populist?
There is no doubt that Kiley, Eckbo and Rose were original thinkers that found themselves in a static profession and all of their work is challenging. Should an artist push the boundaries, even if the art is linked to gardening, the most backward looking art?

Yes.

A static profession using mathematical analogies quoted as number mysticism or esoteric along with the nature of radical original thinkers can be easily put to the inquisition. any public society quelled into the nature of parks Like Central Park in NYC or more specifically high society styles of painting pretty pictures will be afraid of treading on the protected grounds of intellect that gives the High Society its wealth.

I would feel uncomfortable as a rather simple minded citizen of a low social class financially to be seen walking in the art of math. Somehow I'm no longer among my peers or people of similar intellect and social class. In essence i would fear the backlash of the Financial Institution glancing down from the windows above. Watching me trying to act as though I'm wealthy, modern and highly educated in the profession of mathematics.

Yes the design is showing the rift between wealth and poverty. It does have classical words or names like Fibonocci but does the Design promote the freedom of profiting from math by all citizens or does it simply record how a new form of governing is able to control the learnings of math as a profession with secrets. Secrets that all Americans as free thinkers could find in any college but somehow controlled and filtered for profits of a profession and protected by capitalism. Kind of like the church denying mathematicians the right to have original thought. The Banking Institution can be falsely accused by an always suspicious public of hoarding intellect to protect their profession.

I'll try to think how the Design is a double edged sword unfairly cutting at the Original Thinkers like Kiley. I think any Designer who uses the form of math and logic has to have strong humanitarian beliefs and convictions. The Tampa design doesnt have playgrounds or simple things any working mother would want her children to play in. I want to believe the Tampa Park is saying use and think of math freely and always question those powerful bodies who control its meanings. So the lack of familly fun devices are important to make sure we are shocked out of our Disney mindsets.

Im really not talking about garden restoration or being precise. I have fears of the design. Fears that could prejudice any decision. The fear is simply of intellectuals controlling my thoughts. Obviously Im being broad but the broadest view can become the easiest to influence ones decisions. Should I take the narrow minded views of art first practicality of design secondly? Only if the lesson being taught through design is not yet found out and has importance for awakening humanity towards freedom of thought. Sometimes original thinkers have to be invisible to their enemies. Modern art has many. Math has even more. A Park with both is on the verge of making many people angry. I dont know if I should become angry with the structural engineering specs and choosing of plant materials. If I do become a hypocrit of Kileys Design as full of longterm mistakes causing grief for the financial cost to repair, then I could easily ignore the immaginative importance of seeing Kilys design as having altruistic important principles needing to be preserved.

Math is beautiful...even to math phobes (and babycakes, I TOTALLY qualify!) The intricacies of physics fascinate me. That said, Kiley's space didn't look PHYSICALLY comfortable. All that concrete in the hhot Tampa sun...no place to sit...I dunno. It's hard to envision how such a place would engender the emotional attachment a park must engender to have people WANT to keep it around...

And people can/do respond positively to engineereed spaces--ever watch people enjoy one of those fountains that requires a computer to run it? They are deligthed at the movement of the water...I've seen people laugh out loud.

melanie