Chris, you are welcome to send me the complete reorganization you have in mind. If you are concerned it might give Board members a coronary, then send it to me by email. My email address is available on this site. I promise you I won't have a coronary, even though I am on the Board. As to the three year terms of Board members, elections are expensive and time consuming. Holding them more often than every three years would mean we were spending an inordinate amount of time and effort on elections and less time on the business of the organization. I have to tell you I think such an approach would be counterproductive. However, I do agree the Board is too large and think we should have more effective limits on the number of consecutive years someone can serve on the Board. I am in my second term on the Board and it will be my last. If I can't get things done in six years, it's time for someone else to work on them. I'm not sure which big businesses you have dealt with, but I can tell you Boards of big businesses do not ask stockholders or anyone else for input before conducting the business of the company. I have seen them in action in their business meetings and they are less open than the ARS Board. Anyway, lay your suggestions on me and I will let you know what I think. The ARS is not perfect by any means and any ideas that will help will be welcomed.

* Posted by: karenm 7 ) on Wed, Nov 13, 02 at 12:52 Well, I'm posting again. I had the original post 4mts ago. Have managed a few more mistakes in this time. Being a new gardener, I am always looking for free plants so one friend (maybe she really doesn't like me) gave me, gooseneck loosestrife, wild violets, periwinkle, and several mints. (ALL of these are considered VERY INVASIVE!) I planted the gooseneck in with my roses to cover the Roses leggy bottoms. Next spring I will begin the process of elimination. Already pulled up all the mints. I like the violets so far, but they have not invaded anywhere I don?t want them to be. Also, went to a plant sale with same friend and bought several plants with Latin names and metric measurements. (I haven't gotten that far in my education.) Did not have a clue what most of them were, but they were at a good price. Anyway, I bought some aster. I knew what that was. Yea, right. It grew to be about 5-feet tall and 3-4 feet wide. I had planted it in the front of the bed. It looked like Godzilla stepping all over my other sweet and dainty plants. To make matters worse, I too tried to move this huge monstrosity in 100-degree heat. Needless to say it did not live. Would loved to have seen it in bloom. For that matter, I have quite a few plants I have never seen bloom because I move them so much. Gotta get that perfect placement ya know. I'm looking forward to spring to see what new adventures are awaiting me! * Posted by: wavesmom sf calif (My Page) on Wed, Nov 13, 02 at 14:53 I have been gardening for years, and composting for 3. My worst mistake was when I dug up the crabgrass, and wanting to be the perfect composter, threw the crabgrass in the compost. My pile doesn't get hot enough to kill seeds. Guess what I have EVERYWHERE in my yard. Note to self: if you don't want the plant everywhere in the yard, don't compost it. I had the same experience (same year) with tomatoes. I could have fed the masses with the number of tomato plants that came up. * Posted by: Nelz z5b/6 NW PA (My Page) on Wed, Nov 13, 02 at 22:57 I had the worst one until this afternoon. 1 - A few years back I started all my cukes and squash (summer and winter) and melons in peat pots inside to get a few week head start when they hit the ground. I had the following number of varieties; 2 cukes, 4 winter squash, 3 summer squash, 3 watermelon, 2 canteloupes. I had several plants of each type. More than I needed, but you know, always plant a few extra in case all do not germinate. Everything germ'd. After 10 days I sorted everything out, what I wanted, and what I'd toss. My mother in law plants everything, and even though her garden was in, she said she'd take the rejects. I gave the flat explaining it was a lot of cukes and a few squash and 1 watermelon. Wrong, as in wrong flat. I forget which was which. I had cukes out the ear, and mom was nice enough to share the harvest. 2-Use only clean straw! I think I got oat straw, with all the oats attached. At $1 a bale I got excited and loaded up the truck. I put my beds to sleep for the winter, planted my garlic, and mulched HEAVILY with the straw. Every bed is growing lots of green blades through the straw. So, here I am weeding in November. I'm limiting my work to the garlic beds, the rest will be a 'covercrop' that I'll hoe in next spring. At least they pull up easy. PS - This is an awesome thread, and I didn't see many mistakes, just learning experiences!! * Posted by: bdot z7 NC (My Page) on Wed, Feb 26, 03 at 13:25 1st, what is a "DH"? Every time I see that I think designated hitter and it confuses me. :) My first mistake was when I moved into my house 2 years ago. The back yard was small but was over grown with weeds and vines and stuff. I loved it cause it's a good animal habitat. The wild rose bush (it's the kind that's invasive that people hate but I've come to love) is about 10 ft wide, 15 ft long and about 7 ft tall. Anyways, I decided I would clear out some of the wild grape and also honeysuckle from the trees especially all the dogwoods. Well I'm happily pulling things out and since it's the winter (no leaves on vines) I didn't think until I started itching. Let's just say I used to get poison ivy by just being in the same town as it is in. It hit the blood stream and I had it for 3 straight months. Near the end I had a swollen shut eye and had to get medicine. Went to Immediate Care (since I don't have a doctor since that requires setting up an appointment 3 months in advance) and they gave me allergy medicine. Luckily mom works for a doctor and got me some good pills and I haven't had poison ivy since even though I work next to it when feeding the tigers. My other mistake was in a way related. I had read that jewelweed helps keep you from getting poison ivy. It did wonders back when I did get it and would rub it on the spot. Well anyone that knows about jewelweed knows it has the water-resistant leaves. Well I had made a flowerbed beside my house. I couldn't get much to grow last year in the severe drought. Well these 2 plants came up that looks just like jewelweed leaves. i was so happy that I continually watered them. They got up to 1ft.. then 5 ft... then 10 ft.. ok, somethings wrong. Either I have a very happy jewelweed plant or that's not what it is. I did some investigating on the web. I found out I had lambs quarter. HA HA HA! I hate killing plants so I didn't want to take it down but then I knew the thing would reseed one day and that would be a mess. Luckily after it was up to about 13-14ft, we had a heavy rain and wind. Knocked both plants sideways into the yard. Didn't kill them but they were in the way so I removed them. * Posted by: Storey z8b TX (My Page) on Wed, Feb 26, 03 at 17:58 One of my most recent was allowing my friend to walk through my pepper patch. He tried a few peppers and asked what they were after tasting. Before I could stop him, he tried a habanero... I never knew anyone could run to a hose that fast or drink that much water at one time :o) Fortunately, he survived, but now he asks about the plants BEFORE he tries them. Stephen * Posted by: Peach_Fuzz 4 (My Page) on Wed, Feb 26, 03 at 18:36 Bdot, DH is "Dear Husband" in our land of abbreviated computer lingo. (although I'm going to think "designated hitter" now!) * Posted by: valeriePA z6 PA (My Page) on Thu, Feb 27, 03 at 6:42 I repeat it every year-too many seedlings and plants and not enough prepared soil. The seedlings or plants end up dying waiting for me to dig up more of the lawn. I think I'll give lasagna gardening a try this year. * Posted by: MaryMarg Zone9/San Jose (My Page) on Thu, Feb 27, 03 at 15:27 We moved into our first home four years ago, and had a gorgeous bougainvillia draping over the tops of the french doors to our bedroom. New to gardening, my husband and I couldn't figure why it "died" several months after moving in. My husband, escaping with multiple minor cuts and several colorful expletives, managed to remove it. We found out several weeks later (after it had been taken away by the garbage man) that the beautiful climber was merely dormant. Such remorse! * Posted by: somara ) on Fri, Feb 28, 03 at 15:10 I'm now starting my second year gardening and I have a feeling that I'll be a beginner for another 5-10 years. Here are last year's mistakes: 1. Plant swaps are great and the people are friendly; however, people are NOT giving you plants out of generosity... they just don't want to go home with what they brought. I finally understood this during the fall swap when I couldn't get rid of the last of my plants without having to take something from someone else. So I went home with another truckload and needless to say, most of it didn't make it in the ground again. So I'm only attending one swap a year now. 2. I found a small patch of Bermuda grass in my yard last spring. I thought I'd get around to it later. Nope. Bermuda grass will take over your entire yard the moment you turn your back on it. This year I'm breaking out the flame thrower. 3. Find out what the dimensions of the full grown plant is before you put it in the ground. That cute little wild current tomato that wouldn't grow for two months, eventually hit a growing spurt and took over the entire bed (4'x6'). It was STILL producing tomatoes through December. 4. The biggest mistake, and probably the one I will continue to make every year for my entire life, is trying to do too much with my yard. This year I promised my sweetie that I'd only work on the area around the back patio... but I've already drawn out plans for under the trees, the front bed, and pretty much the entire property. But ya' know something? As long as I'm not repeating my mistakes year after year (with the exception of #4), then I must be learning... * Posted by: mindi1248 z9 FL (My Page) on Mon, Mar 3, 03 at 22:47 This one just happened to me today... I bought some veggie and herb seeds about a week ago (even though I've no idea where to put them) and I decided yesterday that I would get them started in some dixie cups. Labeled and stuck the dirt in the cups, and poked a hole in the bottom to drain, and planted the seeds. I left them outside... This morning it started pouring rain. Turns out that the little holes in the cups couldn't keep up with the flood and when I went outside all the cups were overflowing and soggy and the seeds were floating or on the ground..lol.. I replanted what I could and brought them on the porch..we'll see if they germinate! :) * Posted by: mindi1248 z9 FL (My Page) on Tue, Mar 4, 03 at 14:33 Mistake Number Two: Not using waterproof ink on those dixie cups! I replanted in some real seedling cups today, but now I have no idea what's what! Guess I'll have a surprise when they grow..if they do..lol :) * Posted by: ticksmom419 z7 NC (My Page) on Fri, Mar 7, 03 at 10:30 Somara, in response to your bermudagrass mistake, it only spreads all over your lawn if you don't want it to. I'm tired of fiddling with my sad fescue and WANT the bermudagrass to take over. How many years will it take, do you suppose? Murphy's Law strikes again. * Posted by: ernie50 z7ga (My Page) on Sun, Mar 9, 03 at 7:20 I've been gardening for some years, however still learning. Tried to grow Joe Pye last year from seed, but never came up so couldn't identify seedling. Finally saw a few tiny seedlings & nursed along for 3 months. Was poking around outside & saw same thing growing wild outside. It was a weed!Had somehow got in my seed flat! * Posted by: timtijones z5 Milwaukee WI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 9, 03 at 11:36 Last year was my first year gardening in my first house, so the mistakes were many and frequent. Some of the most important lessons I learned were ... 1. No matter how warm April may be, there's a reason people around here (Milwaukee, WI, zone 5) say don't plant until after Memorial Day. We managed to get some make-shift cold frames around plants both in the beds and not-yet-planted, but we still lost almost a third of the annuals and perennials during a May cold snap. 2. Try to have at least SOME idea where you're going to put that beautiful plant you just saw at the nursery. Lost a few plants that stayed in the pot way too long after purchasing because we didn't have beds ready. 3. EVERYTHING takes at least twice as long to do as you think it will -- digging beds, amending or replacing soil (we have lots of clay, so sometimes we just empty out a big area and refill with garden soil), fertilizing, weeding, pruning (actually, that takes 4 times as long!!). One of these days I'll try to leave time to actually sit out in the yard and ENJOY my gardens, but it didn't happen last year. Maybe if I schedule the time in my DayMinder... 4. Just because it's the north side of the house and shaded in April doesn't mean it's a shade garden. I planted a dozen astilbe and 6 goatsbeard (aruncus) in the front of the house, which is on the north side. The astilbe did OK, but the flowers dried up and turned brown in less than a week, and the poor goatsbeard probably didn't survive ... they grew less than an inch last year from the planting size. That bed gets FULL SUN from May to August! So I'm moving everything that survives the winter to the west side of the house under the shade of the neighbor's black walnut tree. 5. Which brings up the last one ... black walnuts' roots kill most plants planted anywhere near their canopy. Fortunately, astilbe is one of the plants that can survive the black walnut toxins, along with ferns and hostas. Guess what I'll be planting in the west side beds this year!! * Posted by: veilchen z5 S. Maine (My Page) on Sun, Mar 9, 03 at 11:56 One of many: When removing the pachysandra from the front of the house to put in a new shade garden, I discovered what was obviously a small shoot of a rose. My house was built in 1930, so I was excited to have found what may have been an old climbing rose that survived neglected all these years (in the shade!). Just think how hardy it must be! I carefully dug it out, getting all of the long tap root. I pampered it for a few days in a container, keeping it moist. Then I transplanted it around a metal obelisk trellis in a sunny spot in my garden. I gave it lots of compost and water. By the end of the summer, I trained it up the obelisk and it was thriving. I was very proud of my horticultural accomplishment of saving an antique rose and couldn't wait til next year so I could see the blooms. Well, it bloomed last summer. Very plain, single white small blossoms. Totally unexceptional. Japanese beetle magnet as well. What I had transplanted and nurtured was an old root stock of a wild rose. I yanked it out at the end of summer, and it had really anchored itself in. I hope I got it all. * Posted by: John_Blutarsky (My Page) on Sun, Mar 9, 03 at 14:44 Trying to drive 400 miles with a bunch of houseplants in the back of my car. They were exposed to too much sunlight and at the end of the journey their leaves had turned black! Fortunately, none of them died, just took a year to get back to their old selves! Next time, I'll keep them covered up better. * Posted by: clg1 z7 AR (My Page) on Sun, Mar 9, 03 at 20:46 Thanks so much for this thread. I truly thought I was the ONLY one who had ever cultivated, nurtured and sang to rogue blades of grass mistakenly thinking they were long-awaited flower seedlings. * Posted by: teka2rjleffel z10FL (My Page) on Tue, Mar 11, 03 at 15:27 I love this post. I'm not new to gardening. I have been doing it for over 20 years. But when we moved to Florida from New York I made a big boo boo. The house and lawn had been badly neglected. So my husband (who hasn't a gardening clue) and I started pulling up the weeds in the lawn. After we were well into the project our new neighbor came over and asked what we were doing pulling up all of the St. Augustine grass (which looks like a weed but is the only thing that will grow here.) * Posted by: somara z8 - Austin, TX (My Page) on Thu, Mar 13, 03 at 16:56 My Mom and I were talking about what we were going to plant this spring and that brought up the subject of caladium bulbs... this was a BIG mistake from last year so I thought I'd mention it: Do NOT plant the bulbs upside down. Less than half of my caladiums made it. Unfortunately since both ends looked so much alike - this is easy to do. Someone told me later that the easiest way to avoid the same mistake is to plant the bulbs sideways. That way the plant has a better chance of breaking ground before it runs out of steam. * Posted by: Pickwick z5 (My Page) on Thu, Mar 13, 03 at 18:14 The grounds superintendent of a large estate where I worked in the days of my youth, assigned me to plant grass seed in a freshly prepared area. He conveyed to me where I might locate this seed. Evidently, I seemed to have grabbed the wrong bag. It was thistle birdseed........... * Posted by: LesLazz z17CA (My Page) on Sun, Mar 16, 03 at 5:26 Great laughs on this page, literally laughing and holding my side on a couple of them! My story is a bit different but true. Not necessarily, MY stupidest mistake but alas it happened any way. We move in 3 years ago to this house with the previous owner promising that the garden right outside my family room wall (all windows) was a tea garden, that she had worked very hard on. It being February when we bought, she said I couldn't tell until the bulbs came up. So I waited and waited and WAITED... all we had the first year were big weeds. Convincing myself I may had neglected the bulbs, I went out the next January and cleaned all the weeds and religiously watered, once again waiting for the tea garden, which never arrived. I decided to make it a rose and bulb garden, dug all the soil up and proceeded to plant three rose bushes and several different kinds of bulbs in a teagarden type pattern. Well, my hubby came out in January of last year and had a packet of wildflower seeds and decided to spread them throughout my garden (while I was cursing him behind his back, mind you). Fast forward, lots of wildflowers, bulbs grew but no flowers-because the wildflowers took all of the sun/nitrogen/whatever out of the soil (roses seemed to be ok tho). I told him I am going out to take everything out except my bulbs and roses. He asked if I would leave the poppies. I told him I will try (but between you and I , I know what a poppy looks like as opposed to a weed/wildflower) and I guarantee my bulbs will bloom next year! * Posted by: Vroomp z7Ga (My Page) on Sun, Mar 16, 03 at 10:34 What I have learned from my Mistakes: Tradescantia (Spider Wort) blooms in afternoon sun, but the leaves will fry and make the plant look like it's dying. It blooms three times longer in afternoon shade. Foxgloves and Gladiolas need to be in a protected area from wind. Otherwise the become groundcover quickly. Never put an Amaryllis in a pot whose base is larger than the neck. They don't come out without breaking the pot. Inkberry Bushes do not grow on the North side of your home. I lost 6 seven gallon plants. Morning Glories produce a lot of seeds. And they ALL germinate............. For years to come !! Stonecrop Sedums spread like mad under cover of winter leaves. Which happens to be the best way to multiply your Blackeyed Susans too! A Wild Cherry is the wrong tree to leave for shading your patio. In Spring it drops flowers(too tiny to be pretty)then it drops little black fruit(which stains).The insects that thrive in them can dump around 1 pound of poop per night. (that's how much fell on the tarp over the food table last party). Glad I had the forethought to put it up !!! Then in the Fall the twigs and leaves seem to never end. * Posted by: ladykemma katy, texas (My Page) on Tue, Mar 18, 03 at 22:34 pulling up the foxglove seedlings because i thought they were weeds..... * Posted by: Lynn9 z9,Northern Ca. (My Page) on Thu, Mar 20, 03 at 23:25 HA! I think the "pet" poison oak is the funniest one. My mistake this year was building a nice frame for a raised box-bed, filling it in & then realizing it is in the wrong spot! My second mistake was buying all that "organic" compost/potting soil that was on sale & *then* reading the ingredients. It's organic with a "wetting agent" added. It carries a warning "as in all soil, gloves should be worn before handling this product". I don't dare use the stuff & lost the receipt. * Posted by: Adina Zone 7, Atl GA (My Page) on Fri, Mar 21, 03 at 15:55 This wasn't a big mistake, but only because I'm a biological fluke. Several years ago, back when I lived in an apartment that didn't even have enough light for houseplants, I "adopted" the vacant lot next to my father's house and started cleaning it up a bit and planting some excesses from his garden. One day he came out while I was pulling weeds, pointed to the plant in my bare hand, and asked if I realized it was poison ivy. I didn't. My hands turned pinkish and itched a little for an hour or so later. I had never learned to identify poison ivy because I've never reacted to it. Still don't. Ivy--regular English Ivy--makes me itch and break out in red blotches, however. Go figure. * Posted by: GaiaChild N.Alberta,Can. (My Page) on Sun, Mar 23, 03 at 2:16 I agree that this is a great thread! I can relate to some of these mistakes and I'll try to learn from the rest :o) I've had small veggie gardens and have experience with indoor plants but last year was my first real flower/ornamental gardening attempt. This year I've planned even more so I'm glad I can come here for some good tips. TIA *thanks in advance* * Posted by: Holedigger z10 SO-CAL (My Page) on Tue, Mar 25, 03 at 15:38 All time dumbest.....designed a complete backyard courtyard with stamped concrete patios, flagstone walks, rip-rap planting beds, lighting, stucco walls, the works. Had it all installed, planted it and realized I had no way of getting irrigation to the planters, or onto the groundcover between the flagstone. Duh.I learned all about native plants and xeriscaping after trying to handwater (twice a day) the first summer. Everything fried. * Posted by: jslatch z8 Austin, TX (My Page) on Wed, Mar 26, 03 at 17:52 Yeah, ok... as a new gardener with a new house, I should probably have researched tulips before putting a delicate 12 bulbs in my 10'x6' bed. Having lived in Washington DC, where every spring the city is covered in gorgeous, prolific tulips, I had assumed that they would bloom and bloom and be this beautiful carpet of red tulips in the middle of my yard. Little did I know that in DC, there are countless men paid by the city to run around in the pre-dawn hours transplanting fully grown tulips for the spring tourists. Needless to say, I got a week and a half of pretty blooms, and then nothing. Ugly green flowerless stalks. What is that about? Who knew that tulips only bloom once and don't multiply? I guess everyone but me. So then I tried to repair my sad-looking bed with eight expensive ranunculus transplants, which looked great for a week. Now they are fading fast, leaving me once again with tired stalks. Sigh. I have now optimistically sprinkled the entire thing with cosmos seeds. Too bad they won't be up in time for my mother's visit... I was so excited to show off my green thumb. I have a feeling I will have many more lessons coming to me... * Posted by: Dic_Tamnus z5b OH (My Page) on Thu, Mar 27, 03 at 10:12 I had a "Three Stooges" moment while walking out to the garden. The side door of my house had a metal awning (sharp edges) that hung exactly 6' above ground level. As I (height 6'1") walked toward it I was verrrry carefully trying to take a sip from a cup of scalding hot coffee. In mid-slurp my scalp met the metal, raking across my skull like a hoe raking across concrete. From pain and surprise, I gasped, inhaling the burning brew. It sounded something like "Scrrrapeaacghgarglekoffplttttt!" So I spent the next ten seconds staggering, bent at the waist, one hand on top of my head and the other wiping coffee that was still running from my nose. My only regret is that I didn't catch the whole thing on video. * Posted by: Tannatonk z3 MT (My Page) on Thu, Mar 27, 03 at 15:08 This is a great thread! I don't have a tale to tell on myself but would like to make a suggestion. Seems like a lot of you have in the past purchased too many plants at one time without having given thought to how or where you were going to put them. The next project on your "honey-do" list should be to build a nursery bed. It could be as big or small as you like but a nice size is 4' x 8' with 6-12" sidewalls. Fill the frame with loose compost and soil. Now you have a place to store all those wonderful finds that you just can't pass up until you know the perfect spot for it. * Posted by: carolynkelsea San Jose (My Page) on Fri, Mar 28, 03 at 12:33 Wow this thread has been around since last year and it keeps getting funnier! I already posted once (transplanting large shrubs in a heat wave) but in my second year of gardening I've made an even sillier mistake... When we moved in I discovered two unidentified bushes hidden beneath some overgrown daisy clumps... For whatever reason I decided they were azaleas and I've been babying them for a year, giving them acid fertilizer, doing everything I could to make them happy... Well just the other day they finally bloomed, and oops, they're not azaleas, they're hawthorn bushes, which is a very common, tough shrub around here, they use it in parking lots because you just can't kill it... After a year of babying these things I feel a little let down! (The pink flowers are pretty though!) *Posted by Cactus_joe 7b (My Page) on Sun, Dec 12, 04 at 1:50 Stupid things that I learned while gardening this year: 1. If you plant a canna tuber right at the bottom of the container, and place it upside down, the canes will emerge through the drainage holes. A real talking point in the garden (?Did I hear words like "stupid thing to do", "how silly", "what was he thinking of", ""senilility", etc being whispered?). Doesn't do much for esthetics either. 2. If you pull a long cane of a prickly rose down too far, and let go, it will neatly grab hold of you pants and tee-shirt, and give you a painful surprise. 3. If you get real mad at how much rocks you have to excavate out of your lousy subsoil before you can plant any thing, make sure your shovel is equipped with shock absorbers before you ram it hard into the ground in frustration. Otherwise, the shock wave generated when you hit that big rock (the one which is always lying waiting for you to do just such a stupid act) will give your bones a jangle that you will never forget. 4. If you go on vacation and have the neighbour tend your yard while you are away, don't forget to tell her not to dead head the roses if you are into hybridising. 5. Never even think of pulling the stun of stepping smartly on the head of the garden rack to get it's handle to flip up - unless you happened to be wearing a suit of armour. * Posted by: NGraham z6 KY (My Page) on Sun, Dec 12, 04 at 8:08 I can sympathize. I've experienced much the same things. Once when my husband had back surgery, I didn't ask, but my neighbor kindly mowed my yard for me. Took out a white lilac a friend had just given me, it did come back but sulked for a long time. Several times I coulda kicked myself when I nurture seedlings I have carefully grown & cared for, plant them out, then carelessly pull them out when weeding. * Posted by: FlowrPowr 5 OH (My Page) on Sun, Dec 12, 04 at 22:10 Joe, the one about the rake really made me chuckle. We were planting some end of season roses about a month ago, and I did that very same thing. It was not one of my more graceful moves. Let me tell you, a rake upside the head, can really hurt. I saw stars for a couple of seconds. Of course, my hubby thought it was funny. I guess one thing that I did that was kind of stupid was loose one of those little hand held garden cultivators. It was an older tool, and just kind of blended in with the soil. I sat it down, and when I went to pick it up, I couldn't find it. My hubby found it when we were doing the fall cleenup. I think I am going to paint the handle day-glo orange, so it doesn't get lost in the perennial jungle again! * Posted by: EGO45 6bCT (My Page) on Mon, Dec 13, 04 at 0:52

— Archived thread.— No division perennials Posted by TamaraVa z7bVa on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 15:20 Hi everyone!! I need some input on some perennials that HATE to be divided. Last year I hurt my back so I am slowly converting my garden into a no divide zone.So far I have planted Baptisia,callihoe,Russian sage,and Iberis along with my shrubs.It is killing me to let go of my ornamental grasses(any ideas on a grass that wants to be left alone?)Asclepsia's are too buggy for me...always covered with aphids.Too bad,one year I had a bumper crop of monarch butterflies.Thanks in advance for any input. Tamara Posted by: iann z8/9 England on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 17:57 Iberis sempervirens? No need to divide it but you will need to cut it back after flowering. Sounds like a lot of bending down. --ian Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 19:15 Peony Papaver orientale Helleborus Dicentra eximia Know the feeling.... Taryn Posted by: Tim_Sullivan z4NY ) on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 19:22 Peonies, astilbe, Japanese anemone, ligularia "the rocket". lilies, daylilies, sedums . . . but here is a question: why do you feel you have to get rid of your grasses, etc? Surely you know people who would like a piece. Just invite them to come and take off a piece or two. Your grasses are still around, they're contained and someone else is very happy. Also, maybe try planting things that spread in five-gallon plastic buckets with the bottoms cut off. We do this all the time with things like mint and it works. Tim Posted by: Laurie_KY6 z6 KY on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 20:05 Astilbe? Now you tell me. My 'bible' on dividing (The Well Tended Perennial Garden) recommends dividing astilbes every 3 years or so. Sure enough, mine were huge by the third year. They were one tough job. I had to take a sharpened spade and jump on it to split the 'bulb'. I'm anxious to see what the divisions look like in the spring. Even cut in half, I had large astilbes to replant. I did a lot of dividing this fall and do not relish doing it again in the near future. Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 20:30 Thanks Laurie,I have to get that book (the bible).I just remembered she has a wonderful list in the back for just this subject. What does she say about echinacea? Now,Tim, can I really leave the grasses in the ground and just thin it out? I thought they died out from the center? Boy that would be great if I could just dig around a bit.I certainly don't have the giants of the grass world.I have Panicum"shenandoah" 4 ft tops and Muhlenbergia capilliaris( which I wouldn't give up, I'll pay someone to divide if I have to!!)Schizachyrium "the blues"will be manageable.Daylilies!! I can really leave them be? You folks have save the day with your kind suggestions!!.I can still have my old friends in the garden with the bum back. Tamara Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 20:36 Geraniums (cranesbills, hardy g.) rarely if ever need dividing. I have plants of some that are at least 10 years old and are cruisin'. The books say divide, but only if the plant indicates a need (and that won't be often). Clematis, plant really well, wait, and they get good after 3 years, better after 10. Same with hellebores, Taryn mentioned them, you never touch them once they're in. Astilbes? I don't divide them unless I want more. And don't worry too much about what the RULES say. I have been gardening with perennials for a long time and I don't divide plants that much except when I want more. Plants don't read the books after all. Think of division mainly as a propagation method and not a garden chore. Posted by: enchantedplace z6OK on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 21:48 Platycodon (balloon flower).. Yes some hybrid day lilies do not need frequent division. Some lilies should also never be disturbed. We never divide our echinacea. Posted by: Brody 7/8 snst4 WA on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 22:03 Eryngiums, Gaura, Caryopteris. Sedges, like Carex pendula and Carex buchananii. Rodgersias, Cimicifuga, Columbine, Alstromeria, Kniphofia, Agapanthus, Campanula lactiflora. Lots more out there. Posted by: Taryn S Ontario Z6B on Wed, Jan 8, 03 at 22:49 Got 'the bible' for Xmas and have it sitting beside the computer now. Re, Echinacea purpurea, author DiSabato-Aust places this in the 'perennials that may require division every 6-10 years' catagory, so that's not too bad. Although if you let some of the plants mentioned, including this one and Gaura, columbine, and other's on the author's extensive list go to seed, you'll be bending over pulling seedlings forever! Which won't help the back situation. David, I've found even though I feed the soil regularly with compost and organic matter, that some plants really start to deteriorate and not bloom as well if they aren't divided fairly regularly. Coreopsis and Hemerocallis spring to mind instantly. Guess those ones can read, lol. Then there are others, like bearded iris and monarda, that will happily bloom away without divison forever. They'll just swallow your garden whole! Get the book, it's a great resource. And check out the 'bummer' thread on conversations, might give you some ideas... Taryn Posted by: Paul299 z4 Minnesota on Thu, Jan 9, 03 at 4:03 Astilbe should be divided ever four or five years-otherwise they become very woody and less likely to survive dry spells and flower less. Hosta almost never need division to keep the plants happy. 20 years or more. I take it -- it's not a shady spot so I will not include the shade list: Adenophora Amsonia Anemone Artimisia Aruncus Baptisia Campanula - many of the larger ones with deep roots Dicentra spectabilis Echinacea Echinops Ephorbia Gypsophila Hibiscus Lathryus Liatris Lysimachia Macleaya Peony Perovskia Phlox paniculata Physostegia Platycodon Rodgersia Sedum -creeping types Thalictrum Tradscantia - many Trollius The above plants can be planted and left alone for many years with out a lot of work; Here is a small list of plants that should be divided every two or three years: Achillea milefolium hybrids Aconitum Aster- a few Astilbe Coreopsis lancifolia,grandiflora Dianthus - a few but not all, Gailardia Geranium - on a number it will improve flowering Heliopsis Heuchera Iris Leucanthemum Lobelia Lychnis Monarda Penstemon Salvia - some Phlox-the shorter species Polemonium Ruddbeckia Scabiosa Sisyrichium Tanacetum Veronica Nothing is written in stone, much depends how well you grow the plants and how long your growing season is. So this above lists are generalities. Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Thu, Jan 9, 03 at 9:52 WoW, You have all given me plenty of options.I agree that gardening goes way beyond the books.For instance, I am always reading were Liatris Spicata does well in most places but I have managed to kill two of them.Further research leads me to believe it likes more moisture than I can provide.That is why I love forums , real gardeners telling real stories. Thanks Again,Tamara Posted by: palmandan 4 Vermont on Thu, Jan 9, 03 at 21:09 "HUH? That list from Paul has artemesia, lysimachia, macleaya, physotegia and tradescantia as plants that do not need to be divided often and can be left alone for many years." Yipes - NOT where I live. All those plants are aggressive spreaders for me. Interesting if they aren't for other folks. I was going to suggest heuchera (coral bells) - at least I have some heuchera palace purple planted in a circle around a sap bucket and they've been in the same place for 12 years. They self-seed, but it's easy to get the babies. I don't divide it that often. If you buy a REALLY expensive daylily you can bet it won't grow very fast :-) Posted by: david_5311 Z 5b/6a SE Mich on Thu, Jan 9, 03 at 22:03 One interesting thing I have learned reading this thread is that I mostly don't PLANT plants that require a lot of dividing. That's why I have the sense that most plants don't need it. I have few daylilies and they mostly aren't my cuppa tea. And yes, Taryn is right, there are a few other plants that probably have declined over the years as a result of my 'divisional neglect', leaving a HOLE, a SPACE in my otherwise crowded garden... a great spot to try something new. And yet another reason not to fret too much about dividing plants. Posted by: Paul299 z4 Minnesota on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 7:44 "HUH? That list from Paul has artemesia, lysimachia, macleaya, physotegia and tradescantia as plants that do not need to be divided often and "can be left alone for many years. "Yipes - NOT where I live. All those plants are aggressive spreaders for me." That is why they do not need to be divided often -they will spread out and take care of themselves. Those plants that need division are those that grow to thickly and crowd them selves out and/or develop woody type stems or roots that do not over winter as well as "new" stems and roots. These plant can be put in the land scape and be left to there own care as long as they have the room to spread out. And besides a large drift of one plant tends to look better that a jumble of many single but different plants. Posted by: Paul299 z4 Minnesota on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 7:55 " I was going to suggest heuchera (coral bells) - at least I have some heuchera palace purple planted in a circle around a sap bucket and they've been in the same place for 12 years" From here in Minnesota have to replant Heuchera every three years, most of the time because they tend to grow out of the ground- that is the growing point of the stem keeps growing upward. Then during winter the stems that are above ground is killed off in March during our warm days and cold nights. Though I have 40 some Huechura (that I can not remember what they- one of the purple-red foliage types) that have been in the ground for about 8 years and they are still alive, but sure would grow and look better if I got in there and replanted them deeper. Posted by: Marg504 z5PA on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 9:32 May I add Dictamnus albus to the list. It resents being disturbed. Has attractive, glossy leaves. No disease or pest problems. The growth habit and size is much like that of a peony. Flowering time is only about 2 weeks in early to mid June, but the seed pods are attractive. I found it to be a pretty plant throughout the growing season. The drawback is that the lemony scented oils (Yes, the oils will ignite briefly when a lit match is held close) of the leaves can cause a skin rash on contact for some people. This happened to my dh when he mulched under the plants after scratching up his bare arms while mulching under the junipers. The lesson here is to wear gloves and long sleeves to mulch the junipers, not to ban the dictamnus from the gardens! Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 10:38 I also find in this area that Heuchera needs to be divided every other year or it disappears.In fact in this area I have never seen an impressive clump(except for H.Villosa).You all got me interested in Helleborus so I went out to do some research.If I can keep up with the seedlings it sounds absolutely wonderful.I have come to the conclusion that the perennials that don't need dividing are the type 1)that need space to go through their waxing and waning and 2)can self seed vigorously.I will have to look up Dictamnus ,it sounds so lovely.Best Wishes,Tamara Posted by: Johnnieb Washington, DC on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 12:48 Peonies are the classic never-divide perennials. Siberian irises likewise make good clumps that rarely need division. But I wouldn't recommend bearded irises, which have creeping rhizomes that are best divided and replanted every 2-3 years (plus the foliage looks ratty after blooming). Posted by: GreenGene on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 18:13 Add hostas to your list. They almost never need it and look better if you don't. I've never tried any of the newer daylillies, but the older cheap ones spread way too much. Gene Posted by: sbeuerlein zone 6 on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 19:15 For those of you bible thumpers (Tracy Disabato-Aust fans), you'll be pleased to know she has a new book due out very soon. I think the topic is about incorporating shrubs into the perennial border. has it listed as a future release. Scott Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 20:17 Scott,I'll have to check that one out.I sat in Barnes and Noble the other day looking up all the great suggestions.Speaking of shrubs has anyone heard of Danae Racemosa.It has quite a history .The common name is Poet's Laurel.The leaves use to crown Athletes,poets,and orators in ancient times.Plant history has always intrigued me.How could I resist? I went over to the shrub web and found out it is a member of the lily family and produces pretty red berries in the winter.It likes shade and grows to 3x3 and STAYS there.My kind of shrub!So,I'm thinking about pairing it with helleborus orientalis.Tamara Posted by: Tiffy_z6aCan 6a on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 20:28 Tamara, ...Antique roses don't need division... :) From another gardener with back muscle spasms and a reoccuring slip disc... :( Nicole. Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Fri, Jan 10, 03 at 22:08 Oh Nicole, You understand So much!!LoL ;) (funny, my rose list has been growing over the past year)Tamara Posted by: hoehum z5/6 PA on Sat, Jan 11, 03 at 8:40 The only perennial I've found that must be divided is Shasta Daisy -- they dend to die out in the middle after 3-4 years. All the rest just spread happily or stay put. Heuchera has a tendency to pop out. I either yank it out to give away or mash it back in during spring when the ground is soft and damp. My astilbe has never been divided. About 5 years ago I sliced off some edges to make more. Posted by: laceyvail zone 5b, WV on Sat, Jan 11, 03 at 8:51 You mention that you have planted Callirhoe. I assume you put in C. involucrata because it is readily available. Little known and very hard to find is C. digitata. This is a gorgeous scrim plant, 4-5 feet tall on thin, pale, nearly leafless, grey-green stems, with the same wine cups up and down the stems. From a slight distace, they look as if they are floating. A great plant. Whenever I look at it, I can hardly believe it is not better known. Carroll Gardens is the only nursery I know of that sells it. Oh,of course, no division needed. Posted by: TamaraVa z7bVa on Sat, Jan 11, 03 at 18:48 Laceyvail, Thanks for the info on C.digitata.I am a great fan of Callihoe and yes,my plant is C.involucrata. Funny thing is I planted it before did any research on it(besides the catalog description)Oddly, my huge Botanica "Bible" didn't list it so I searched through some other books.That is were I discovered it's long carrot-like taproot.Just in time because I was planning on moving it this spring.What I love is the way it weaves around its neighbors.I remember looking out the window one day wondering what that lavender bloom was on my panicum grass!I always hoped to achieve that with hardy geraniums but they hate our heat here.I agree with you.It's hard to believe the whole lot isn't better known.That plant bloomed for months and is still evergreen.It has a fascinating way of dieing back to the crown after flowering then coming back with gorgeous cut leaf foliage.My plant is the var.tenuissima(mexican wine cups).I believe they have one out called Logan's White,only I hate to pay Plant Delights shipping of 16.00 so I may look into your mentioned callihoe.Thanks Again,Tamara Posted by: katybird_PA z6 PA on Tue, Jan 14, 03 at 10:57 I don't think I saw it mentioned so I will recommend Lavender (especially pretty with Antique Roses).

That's great information, and just what you'd expect from Linda Chalker-Scott. It's a bit hard to read here, so worth looking at the pdf file you've linked to. I have an old container of SunSpray ultra-fine horticultural oil and I've been wondering if this type of oil will keep it's qualities in storage for a long time. I recently read that it could be used to keep citrus leaf miner moths from laying their eggs on citrus leaves so I want to try it out later in the spring when the leaf miner moths come to life. I had trouble finding this ulta-fine oil online, so I've dusted off this old container just in case. (later...I just looked on eBay and found some so I may not have to use the old stuff, unless someone can tell me it should be all right...it's probably 10 years old). Thanks for bringing up this subject, I always forget about using dormant oil on my peaches until the early ones start flowering. Now's the time to start thinking about it.