Sabal palmettos are pretty much naturalized all along the gulf coast into Louisiana (possibly TX). I see younger ones around here fairly often and I'm about 50 miles north of Pensacola (out of the native range). They usually are under power lines or along fence lines, anywhere birds sit and poop the seeds. I think this is caused by two factors, human planting, and lack of forest fires which historically kept them confined to the coastal areas.

Yes, i was talk'in of natural stands in the woods, so far i have seen pics of almost trunked ones in the Hatteras woods but of trunked specimens in the Louisiana woods. It's just a matter of time & with all the palmettos planted around the Myrtle Beach area they will be in those woods before we know it. ( If there are any woods left in that area after all the developments!)

Great pics and lesson. They have a certain class in their native habitat.

Thanks again for the great pics! I love seeing them from all you NC and VB folks! I would put money on it that it wont be too long before they are naturalised in the woods in SE VA either, since there are so many planted there, and many that were planted as seedlings that have grown to adults and go to fruit each year. Its just a matter of time. I wouldn't even be surpised if they slowly creep up the Del Marva, and possibly even up the southern coasts along the bay. I have heard of a few sightings of S. Minor in some wooded areas along the coast.

Funny thing about naturalisation, is that its even starting up here in the DC area. There are a few strap leaved seelings of palms, in my neighborood, and one out front of the building next to me. It only has two leaves, so I am not sure if its a needle palm or S. Minor yet, but there are BOTH growing, and going to seed in my area of Alexandria, VA. There are also quite a few mature windmills growing at peoples homes up here, that go to seed as well, so I suppose the seedlings I have seen around could be any one of the three.

Thanks again for the pics! I still have never made it to Bald Head Island. Seeing these pics make me want to do it now more than ever!

We have to remember that advancement, even 50 miles northward or wherever could take hundreds of years in the making to establish true naturalization & especially palms fighting a climate that might not be the best for speedy movement. Interesting subject never-the-less!

very nice pics. you can def. tell they are naturalized there just by how they look and where they grew (not really as much planted...) I will definatly agree with nova about them coming up the coast to SE Virginia area easily. i dont think it will take 100 years at all but it will take some time as 10 years ago there were never any palms really here in VB area now every area has them everywhere! the sabal palmettos useto even be naturalized on the eastern shore area up to chincoteague area of virginia but not natural as much anymore. but with this global warming a fact they will def. shoot up all around the chesapeake bay area as it keeps a lot warmer. very nice pics again palms r everywhere down there.

This is what i was talking about, pure escape into the wild.

http://www.palms.org/principes/1996/vol40n4p177-178.pdf

This one should work, click article.

Here is a link that might be useful: Article

That's how it is here. You'll see old homes with mature Cabbage palms in the yard (sometimes the homes have been long gone), and then within a mile or so you'll see younger palms along fence lines, next to buildings, at the base of old trees, etc. My Mom's neighbor has a huge azalea in her front yard with a volunteer Cabbage palm growing right out of the middle if it. All it takes is a bird to disperse the seed, and then a couple of winters warm enough so that the seedling doesn't get killed off.

I certainly don't consider them invasive, not with all the other crap we have around here like Privet, Chinese tallow, etc

Give another 50-100 years & the native trunked sabal palmetto range will grow in square miles, especially the milder gulf coast region.

Guys, I have to agree with Dixieman here.

Naturalization has occured in many northern zones, however, once in a decade a dramtic cold front comes down several times in a single winter and "tends" to kill off many subtropicals up to Bald Head Island NC and other similar locales.

Minors planted outside of the National Space Museum in DC are successfully producing and baby palms are surviving winters unprotected. I doubt that could happen with trunking sabals in DC.

Naturalization - do the seeds take root and survive the winter - that's most of our answer.

I will give that "some" established sabal palms will more likely even survive record January cold if mircoclimates is suitable. Laura's backyard photos show other trees protecting them and yet she's on the coast and they are established - yet a record cold could do sizeable damage.

Just my opinion. Please weight in.

Personally, I just dont think that VB, or anywhere in that general area along the immediate cost is going to suffer that kind of super killing cold snap. The power of the ocean and the gulf stream is just too great. Even areas of the Chesapeake bay coast are suitable for naturalisation of S. Minors and R. Hystrix, as are areas of the large cities of the mid Atlantic. As I said, and Brooklyngreg has also apparently seen, they are naturalising in the DC area, and not just downtown. In fact, the windmill and the S. Minors and Needle palms in front of the Air and Space museum are doing SO well, and naturalising so much, that it appears ( based on what I saw last summer) that the flower/ seed stalks are now being removed, and there are literally hundreds of volunteers beneath all of these palms.

There are now 3 needle palms in the national arboretum that I could count on my trip there last weekend, and it appears that two were offspring of the 50 year old palm, and have been moved to other areas. I do remember there were more than just the big one in the asian valley section, and now there is just the big one by itself again.

at the very minimum, S. Minor and R. Hystrix already are ( and probably will) naturlise in the mid Atlantic & DC and quite possibly so will some Windmills.

That said, I just dont think that Sabal Palmettos will ever be able to naturalise this far north / indland. Perhaps on the lower coastal areas of the delmarva peninsula but I dont seem them going much further than that. They just are not hardy enough IMHO. In very protected locations sure, they could survive, as does saw palmetto here, but just out in the open, probably not.

Yea I def. agree with nova... but here in Va Beach as Laura has stated many of times the Sabals here dont even get touched in the winter. they are just fine no wrapping nothing of that sort which means sooner or later they will be naturalized just fine here. you really dont see any damage in the spring on them. ill haveto take pics. in like march around also. others like washys... they may get wrapped or somethin' some do some dont im not sure about this year as its been a lot warmer. well see how the winter goes. but sabal palmettos, sabal minors, pindos, trachys, and easily needles never get touched here, they are just fine. if i had lots and lots of money i would just go planting young ones all around in medions and intersections and they would be everywhere large and beautiful, untouched... many of palms around here have baby seedlings from each year they have fruited and dropped seeds and they grew and made it through the winter unharmed. the climate here in Va Beach is much milder than even 5 years back. we useto always get snow and haveto wrap all palms like it was ny... now no snow and hardly goes under 25 and if so for a short period and right back up so theres no really "cold snap" here to damage anything.

I would realy like to see some sabal minors and needle naturalizing here. They can probaly handle winters this far north pretty well since we rarely go below 5 (maybe 2 times within the last 10 years and we definately havent seen subzero in over or about 20 years). NYC, Philly, and DC have pretty similar winters so if needles can fruit in DC they can probably do so up to Long Island, NY (DC is little warmer during the day though). I really doubt I will ever see sabal palmettos naturalizing around here, or anywhere within 100 miles, but virginia beach will definately have some wild groves of sabal palmettos within the next 20 years granted real cold doesnt come.
Its good to really take advantage of the warmer winters over the past few years, but what comes up must come down. Upalms in the wild can only depend on natural microclimates which Virgina Beach and all its surrounding areas have quite a few pockets of.

Tropical 7, i'd be almost willing to bet the farm in saying that it will take a whole lot more than 20 years to see wild groves in the area you speak of. It took me between 20-30 years to grow what i have from small plants, & as soon as they were old enough to seed they started leaving seedlings near the mother plant but in our woods there are seedlings but they grow very, very sloooow! Besides that, i would say half or more of what is coming up in our immmediate woods was spread by yours truly! lol
PS speaking strickly of sabal palmetto.

quit argueing about something no one can prove for a fact. i agree again with Tzone7... they dont haveto be 30 foot sabals to be considered "naturalized" all they have to do is be brought here from other southern states as they have been for years now and live with no protection. then seedlings very little haveto survive the winters which im 100% sure they can and will as i have done it for a few years now. yes u have nice palms dixie but u arent that far south of va beach! myrtle beach avgs. 5-7* warmer then here and thats south of u. you dont haveto have 50 year old palms for them to be naturalized. you can comment on other photos also..... they will easily be naturalized here and a little more north soon. end of story. palms can grow several feet a year esp. sabal palmettos with no protection at all. nice pics of southern NC but that is expected they will be moving right up this way and yea it will take maybe 50 years from seedlings to get large and tall but just because they are large doesnt mean they are naturalized...

Time will tell!

Sabal minor seems to be WAY more picky about where they reproduce compared to Sabal palmetto. Sabal minor is native in my area but I almost never see them out of their native swampy habitat, they seem to demand constant moisture and lots of organic matter to get started. Needle palm is also native here but they don't reproduce very abundantly either. The shrubby ones (Serenoa included) seldom mingle outside of their natural habitats.

And I agree with Dixie about the growth rate of Sabal palmetto, I have some that I started from seed six years ago and they are just now just getting their palmate leaves. They're easy to grow, but very s-l-o-w.

And then again the minors that you find in the woods on higher ground & less dependant of a lot of moisure are just as nice as any, go figure? I love to explore for them, don't know what you will find around the next bush.
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this is a healthy discussion. there's much gained from combining wisdom and there are many people in the know on this site.

I am enjoying our moderate winters since the 70s and we still see a bad one here (NYC) about every 10 years in terms of cold. I recall record cold many years ago that closed DC down and also struck VB with a record. The winters are milder since the 70s however it may not be global warming, just a natural up and down like the Roman Empire enjoyed for a season. I hope it gets warmer myself but I do not want to be ignorant.

5-7* is a huge temp variation and parts of VB surrounded water or positioned uniquely probably are a half a zone warmer and support sabal populations, that said they aren't spreading inland or to DC. The global warming folks just had their illustrious leader step down for fudging the numbers. if it was getting so much warmer he would not have to lie.