Dawn, your zone 7 was colder than my zone 6 this morning.
At 3:30 am it was 31° here. We are supposed to get snow too.

Glenda,

We often go much colder than many Oklahoma counties north of us because we are in a very, very low elevation right along the Red River. It isn't odd for us to be 10-15 degrees colder here along the river than the folks in Ardmore who are just 30 miles north of us. However, Ardmore is almost as cold as we are this morning.

I've learned to expect colder temperatures than the surrounding area, but it really caught me by surprise our first year or two here.

The worst weather 'surprise' we've had here was a couple of springs back. We had a forecast overnight low of 50 degrees, so I expected maybe 40 or 42 here along the river, and we went down to 32 degrees. My tomatoes and peppers were in the ground and I didn't cover them, so they froze. (Many regrew from the roots.) Last year, the same thing happened to George in Tahlequah---a forecast low of 50 and an actual low in the low 30s.

I wouldn't be surprised if you got snow there. I'd be surprised if we got it here.

At least the weather and the seed catalogs give us something to talk about when we can't be outside playing in the dirt!

Dawn

Brrr! I still haven't replaced the batteries in my min/max thermometer but the station closest to us, the airport in Poteau (1/2 hour away), shows a brief low of 32 at 5 this morning. We were probably a bit higher than that. There was a good frost out there this morning!

Diane

We were 36 at 6 and no frost this morning. But the last warm day for 5-6 unless they change it again. Yesterday they were saying no day under 44 for 8-10 days. And overnight they changed it too no day over 44 after today for at least a week and maybe longer. I didn't catch the local independent weatherman. He is the only one that was predicting the colder air before yesterday. So will see what he has too say. Sounds like most of you were colder than us. I sure didn't want everyone to think Jan and I was hogging the cool and cold air up here. Hehe. So sent it on. I'm not like Dawn was with the rain this summer. Jay

Jay,

Are you implying I was hogging a bunch of rain that should have been yours? hee hee

Didn't you get those big carboard cartons of rain that I Fed-Exed to you?

When I looked at our overnight low on the Mesonet map this morning, the second place I looked was at the Panhandle counties to see if you and Jan were enjoying our heat while we were shivering in your cold! LOL

It started snowing heavily in El Paso and other parts of far western Texas yesterday, and I've been watching to see which way that storm travels....towards y'all or more towards us. There's a Winter Storm Watch (or Warning, I don't remember which one they said) for the Texas counties that are due west and southwest of us by 100-150 miles or so but not the counties directly adjacent to ours, so I think we will at least get some very cold rain (and, Dear Lord, please don't send us sleet and freezing rain!).

However, they increased our chance to a 100% chance of precipitation. Nine times out of ten, when they say 100%, we get absolutely nothing, so I am afraid they might have jinxed us.

I wouldn't mind if the snow and rain go your way and not ours because we did hog all the rain in April, May, June and early July. We also got tons of it in Sept/Oct. You need the rain/snow more than we do and I hope you get it.

Our local TV forecasters (they really are pretty accurate) are really sitting on the fence on this one, but they do say the further west and south you are in terms of their large TV viewing area in the Lake Texoma/Red River area, the more likely you are to see snow mixed in with the rain.

I haven't looked at the radar lately, but a few hours ago the storms were over Abilene and heading our way. Now that I said that I need to go check the radar and see if we are going to get hit 'sooner' or 'later'.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Here It Comes!

Well, you are right, it was cold this morning. But around noon, it wasn't so bad. Went out on my bike to run my errands. It will be to cold and nasty the next few days to even consider such.

When I got home, I pumped water from my rain barrels to my storage barrels, and put the shasta daisies in the ground, that were potted, and still sitting around. Spread some more mulch, and drained the garden hoses. Then I picked up the leaves around the air conditioner unit, so if it really rains, the water can drain away.

Now, I am waiting for the bathroom to be warm for a nice warm shower.

You all be careful out there, if it ends up slick.

Moni

The rain and sleet crossed the Red River and came into Love County about 3 or 4 o'clock, but it is very patchy and hit-and-miss and our Mesonet has not recorded much. We've had more at our house than they are showing, but it really isn't very much either.

On the 5 o'clock news they showed us some embedded patches of sleet on the radar, but I haven't heard any reports of sleet making it to the ground.

Moni, I'm glad you got to do a few things outside before the weather changed. We were pretty cloudy and chilly all day but the temperatures weren't too bad until they dropped into the 40s late this afternoon.

I'm really thinking that if sleet or freezing rain falls briefly it cannot stick because our soil temperatures were in the lower 50s this last week, and in the upper 40s today. Anything that hits the ground should melt almost instantly.

I hope a good amount of rain falls here, but it doesn't seem like it will. For all the waiting and watching, the dark grayish-blue clouds and the wind, it seems like just the tiniest bit of actual moisture is falling.

Dawn

It was nice here today probably upper 50's. The next several days are supposed to have highs in the 30's. Not much chance of snow however. It feels more like winter now and makes it easier to think about Christmas than when we have 70 degree days. Having lived in Colorado for over half my life, cold Decembers seem right. Stay warm and enjoy winter!
Jan

Jan having a job where I have to work outside in the cold and snow during hte night I don't enjoy it. It is part of life but not enjoyable. Yes was very nice tonight. The local forecaster out of Lamar is saying real cold tomorrow night but then maybe not as cold as long as some of the others are saying. Maybe mid 40's to 50 over the weekend. Hope so. I drained all the hoses tonight. The cold frame and hot frame were still nice and toasty. Will see how they do during the cold snap. Jay

What is up with the weather predictions this year? Earlier today I looked at tonights forecast and it was 30 degrees. I checked it just before we went to dinner and it said 39. By the time we got back from town it said 35. Which guess should I expect???

Answer to Carol's question: who the heck knows?

I always blame our low elevation for the fact that our temperatures don't "match" what is forecast for us. It could, of course, just be that they cannot forecast the temperatures accurately if the weather is being erratic. That begs the question, when is the weather in Oklahoma NOT erratic?

I think your overnight low will be somewhere between 25 degrees and 45 degrees. Is that a close enough guess?

Dawn

Some of us at work just about you can tell when there is a shift change at the NWS. It is funny to watch the predictions go up and down. They will many times bounce back and forth to the same temps. The thing is here we are 120 miles from the closest NWS location. I can type in either and get the same prediction they are making for they town they are in. There can be a lot of difference in weather in 120 miles. They will get a little more local for severe weather but for temps. you never know. And one has lowered them a bunch more this morning. Guess we will know in 5-6 days. Regardless if you look at their forecast Saturday for today they are going to miss it by 20 degrees some days. Just shows the long range isn't of much use. JMO. Jay

Jay,

I have noticed that the shift change often causes a forecast change. It just makes me laugh because it is clear that one person is interpreting the models one way and another person interprets them the other way.

At least today our TV meteorologists were quick to say that the snow was a 'surprise' they didn't anticipate....both because it fell much more heavily than they expected, which led to accumulations they said would not occur, and because it also went further east than they expected. If the local meteorologists here were wrong, the ones in Texas were REALLY wrong. Their winter weather advisory was correct for the counties it was issued for, but the snow was much more widespread--especially eastward--than they expected too.

Oddly, the Fort Worth NWS has issued a Freeze Warning for counties south of the Red River--just south of us--for tonight even though we (and they) have already had several hard freezes and currently have snow on the ground. I'd think at this point, a Freeze Warning would be rather redundant.

Dawn

Dawn,
One recently on the radio said that where he works for the NWS they use two computer models. He said some prefer one over the other which accounts for part of the differences that occur.
And I've noticed freeze warnings here just in the last few weeks and as you know it has been sometime since our hard freeze. Guess maybe it is so anyone who needs to drain hoses ect can. Jay

This is Carol, you weather girl and I am predicting cold tonight. LOL

I believe they are serious this time so I have been out covering up the bar-b-q grill, unhooking the hoses, and in a few minutes I plan to go blow a thick cover of leaves onto the flower beds.

We are at 37 with cloudy skies, but the precip missed us. I watched it on the radar as it headed toward us, but we had a strong wind and it seemed to just be blowing it off to the southeast. I could see it to our NE in MO and AR and to our SE in Oklahoma.

I met Melissa at Braums this morning with her share of the seed swap. We were standing in the parking lot and she looked like she was freezing with just a sweater on. The wind has died down somewhat now and I was able to work outside for awhile without getting too cold. I am grateful that we didn't get the rain because I hate to deal with ice and it will be cold tonight for sure.

We had a friend that was a meteoroligist during WWII. He said they had almost no instruments to use at that time and yet the crews wanted to know if they would have good flying weather for their missions. He said they did what they could to predict the weather including jumping in the jeep every morning and driving to the other side of the island where they could see across the water and watch for any storms in the distance. If none, they went back to their unit and issued an "all clear" to the pilots.

Maybe our weather forecasters don't work on a high enough hill to see what's coming. LOL

Oops, we are getting a light mist but I don't think it will be much of a problem unless it gets much worse.

I do my weather forecasting the old-fashioned way.

When common houseflies are trying to come into the house, rain is coming.

When ladybugs are trying to come into the house, cold weather or snow is coming.

When the previously invisible (in terms of hibernating) wasps start swarming in mid- to late-winter, a warm spell is coming.

For what it is worth, the ladybugs and the flies were trying to come into the house on Sunday, but I shrugged it off. See, if I'd been paying attention, I would have 'known' this was going to happen!

Jay, Sometimes our local forecasters show us what one model says, then they show us what they other model says, and then they tell us what they believe. Sometimes they side with one model, sometimes with the other, and sometimes the local guys forecast something different from both models.

Carol, Now I understand why our weather is messed up. The forecasters here in the Red River Valley are at too low of an altitude to see any weather coming. LOL

Jay, my husband would agree with you that winter weather is not his favorite since he also works outside. However, he only has to work outside at night when our gas freezes off or he has emergency situations with the cattle. I have to admit even though I like a bit of winter weather expecially around Christmas time the long winter of the Colorado mountains are not missed by me. The panhandle wind also adds a chill to winter weather that I could do without. The San Luis Valley in Colorado where I grew up almost never had wind in the winter so even though the air temp. was cold it was often warmer than here with the wind chill.
Hope you stay warm and don't have to go out in the night for the next several days. Jan

We had our cold morning today--22 at sunup, and that was at the house where it is more sheltered than in the garden and pasture, being surrounded by woods.

Sitting here last night reading over Sandhill's website I read that Glenn digs his radichio in fall after a frost and stores the roots and lets them make new heads. I wasn't about to go dig at 10pm last night but now I am thinking that if they survived, I will try it. I noticed that the plants were putting out new heads after the deer ate it off, but didn't think of doing that. I don't know how the Italians produced the lovely small red and white heads that I ate in Feb while I was over there but they were much milder than the ones I've tried to grow here in either spring or fall. And if the "coldest OCt on record" can't grow them mild then it's hopeless. So maybe this is a crop that is grown like witloof chicory--forced in the dark during the winter. ANybody know? Anybody ever try?

Dorothy, Eliot Coleman in "Four-Season Harvest" grows his as a coldframe crop planted from June 1 to Aug 1 and harvest it from Dec 1 to spring, and he lives in Maine.

I looked at them in the garden today and they've been eaten off AGAIN. But I still think I will dig them up, put them where they won't freeze and see what happens.

Maine is a long way from Oklahoma, but I think I need to buy Coleman's book if he talks about winter harvest. We've let the coldframe go but plan to have the greenhouse next year. Does he tell how to manage a greenhouse?

Dorothy,

Eliot Coleman has a brand new book out this year that is pretty much a follow-up to the book Carol mentioned. It is called "The Winter Harvest Handbook: Year-Round Vegetable Production Using Deep-Organic Techniques and Unheated Greenhouses". I have a copy of it and I have skimmed a few sections but haven't read it cover-to-cover yet.

The new book includes his usual clear and concise information about greenhouse construction and maintenance, soil improvement, planting schedules, crop management, harvesting and---for market growers--suggested marketing methods. He also discusses the use of a 'cool house', which is a minimally-heated greenhouse in addition to the use of a 'cold house', which is just his standard unheated greenhouse.

Even though the book is probably aimed at small farmers more in terms of showing them how to keep their farm productive 12 months of the year so that they can earn a year-round income from the farm, it is full of useful info for anyone who wants to extend their growing season.

He manages his very cold climate by combining structures, such as using cold frames (or row covers, in some cases) inside his unheated greenhouses so the plants have extra protection from the cold.

To give you an idea of how thorough the book is, here's the chapter titles:

Introduction
The Winter Harvest
Historical Inspiration
Getting Started
The Yearly Schedule
Sunlight
The "Cold" Greenhouse
The "Cool" Greenhouse
Winter Crops
Summer Crops
Greenhouse Design
Year-Round Intensive Cropping
Soil Preparation
Sowing
Weed Control
Harvesting in Winter
Marketing and Economics
Pests
Insects and Diseases
Tools for the Small Farm
Deep-Organic Farming and the Small Farm

It is a wonderful book. Of course, I think all his books are wonderful.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: The Winter Harvest Handbook

BRRRRR. Nine this morning. Then close to 40 this afternoon and close to 50 tomorrow. Then another dip before a jump back up towards the end of next week. a reall roller coaster. Hopefully the swings will moderate some before long and not on the low end. Ordered more seeds for the cold frames last night and my sweet corn seed for the year. About done now. Jay

Jay, I'm gonna bet you win the prize for the coldest morning temperature.

It is 22 degrees on our front porch, the coldest night so far this season, but all the threatened snow went very far south/southwest of us and I'm glad. I think Brownsville and Houston Texas have snow headed towards them! That's pretty rare and their plants sure won't like it.

These are very chilly temps for this early in the year and have just about finished off the few flowering plants that had survived all the previous freezing nights.

I think we're supposed to warm up a little early in the week and then another blast of artic air arrives mid-week.

I think I just about have all the seeds I need, except for a couple of warted pumpkin varieties I'm ordering so we can have some really odd-looking jack-o-lanterns next year.

"About done now", you said. Really? I always think that too until another catalog arrives and tempts me!

Dawn

Dawn I will probably add more but won't need to buy anything else! Of course I'm sure I will. On the chat site I go too. Last night I was told I was being sent some tomato seeds. And out of the blue he said and you have plenty of room don't you? So not sure what all might be coming. With all the enablers there is around a addict don't stand a chance. Hehe. I keep checking a few sites to see if they have updated for 2010 yet. But keep telling myself I just want to see what is new. That I don't need anything else. Jay

Yeh, just one little pack and then your on a binge. LOL

Jay,

I keep visiting websites too (probably many of the same ones you're visiting) to see if they've updated, and it isn't really like I need much more. I do have a couple of varieties I still need to round up, but I'm in pretty good shape.

I won't even pretend that I am 'done' because there is bound to be something else I must have, but I am almost done. I don't 'need' anything else either, really, but I am sure I won't let that stop me.

Carol,

I confess to being a binge seed buyer. Once I've put one packet in the shopping cart, then why not 3 or 5 or 8? I won't order unless I'm ordering enough to justify the shipping charge.

In a couple of months when Wal-Mart and Lowe's and Home Depot and those types of places begin putting out their seed racks, will I walk on by without looking? Nope. I'll have to stop at each rack (and I know from experience I'll do this every single time I am in a store) "just to see what they have". Hey, you never know---they might have something new and I wouldn't want to miss my chance to buy it.

Dawn

Dawn I forgot I haven't bought anything from Amishland or Skyfire this season yet. AL has updated her site so will buy something from her and the same at Skyfire. Both are run by ladies. Some of my favorite varieties have come from AL. And seeds have always germinated well. Her seeds have always grown true to descxription unlike some of the more hyped places. Really there is one type of okra yet I would like ot find and a couple of pole beans. I could only find one I wanted at Sandhill and my experiences there haven't been the best. Finally found that one and another one tonight at anothier site. I try to support the small seed sellers a little every year. Jay

Jay, I think you just like shopping with the ladies!!!

What kind of okra are you looking for. Maybe one of us has it. I am sure this will come as a shock to you, but I have several kinds or okra and a lot of beans. LOL

Jay,

What a coincidence! I was at Lisa's website this afternoon just looking to see what she has that is new for 2010. LOL.

I have a couple of kinds of okra left from last year, got one or two more in the swap, and have ordered at least one (Stewart's Zeebest) from Baker Creek.

I am not sure where I will put it all, but I'll manage to rototill up some bermuda grass and put in some new gardening space before planting time arrives.

Which okra are you searching for?

It's very cold here already and they are telling us it will be "the coldest night of the year" although I am pretty sure they mean the coldest night this fall/winter. I'm not sure it will be colder than some of the nights we had back in Jan. or Feb. or even March of this year.

Dawn

Got to 22 degrees here in OKC. Even so we had fresh lettuce for thanksgiving, along with some fall peas. It's not even officially winter yet is it? Looking forward to a spring swap, of course. Happy late thanksgiving everyone! Stay full and warm!

Dale

Carol and Dawn the only okra I'm still looking for is Fife Creek Cowhorn Okra. Have found it a few places and some list both it and Cowhorn but haven't found it at where I've bought seeds. Want to grow it and a couple of the other Cowhorn's which I already have to compare being that I'm growing the regular Cowhorn. The only beans I'm still looking for are Blue Marblut and Grandma Roberts Purple Pole Bean. Imagine I will have to wait till next year and get the latter from Darrel or where he sends seeds too. The first one is around. But I'm like Dawn hate to pay shipping on just one and I'm down to almost that now. So may wait on it also. As I have George's Beans and bought one that Darel recommended tonight Everite and also Fortex. So probably have enough beans for 010. Jay

Jay, I grew Fife Creek several years ago and it did fine for me in a very wet and difficult year. If I had any seeds left, I'd send you some.

I know both Baker Creek and Southern Exposure Seed Exchange carry it every year, but the danger in going to their websites is that you'll end up buying 10 or 20 more packs of seeds.

I have my eye on several of the heirloom beans offered by Southern Exposure but I'm waiting for them to update their website in mid-December (at least that's when they normally update) before I order. There's nothing worse than ordering seeds first, and then having the website update with something else you'd love to try.

If you want me to order Fife Creek for you when I order the beans later this month, let me know and I'll add it to my order.

When you said you bought Everite bean, did you by chance mean Emerite? I have Emerite for next year, but if there is another bean named Everite, and DarJones recommends it, I'd like to know more about it. LOL

As for the comment "probably have enough beans for 010"--well, so do I. However, I'm taking my "never can have too many tomatoes" attitude and applying it to beans and cowpeas, okra and potatoes in 2010. No matter how much of each of those I grow and harvest and freeze/can/dry, we still run out of all of them sometime during the winter or spring. So, clearly, I am not growing enough of them and need to grow more.

Talking to Darrel will get you in trouble because it will make you want to grow more and more and more. If I was the horses, I'd start getting worried that you're going to turn some of my pasture into more garden space.

Carol, I think you and Jay both likely got colder than we did Friday night. We were a nice, warm 22 degrees at our house again last night. Did y'all know that so far this month, every night here has been in the 20s and none of the days have gotten out of the 40s---and most days we haven't exceeded 43 degrees. For our location, the Dec. temps are running about 8-10 degrees below average.

I hope these colder temperatures are not a sign that we're going to have a colder-than-usual winter.

Dawn

Dawn,
It is Emerite. Guess I hit the wrong key and didn't catch it. Yes there are several on that site that are enablers like a few here. May have seeds for Purple Trionfo Violetto bean on the way.

Being that I'm growing the regular Cowhorn decided I would like to grow some of the others for comparison purposes. There are many out there. From 3 foot too 12. Baker Creek doesn't have the Fife Creek listed this year. Not sure why. They tend to rotate things I've noticed. Yes I had looked at SESE but was trying to stay away from there and ordering more seeds than I need. LOL.
A few on the chat site really like Fortex. So will give it a try also. Sent an email off to Lisa at AL with some questions before I order. I see she is already out of a few things. So orders must be brisk again this year or for some reason she hasn't updated the whole site. Sure it won't be a surprise but on my list to buy from her one tomato jumped on it. LOL. Mainly lettuce, a couple of beans and a few other veggies. It was 19 this morning and 32 and going up quick now so better head outside. Hope everyone has a warm and great day. Jay

Thanks for the info on Elliot Coleman, Dawn. Years ago used to read his articles in Organic Gardening and Mother Earth. Then quit taking the magazines. I ordered it, need to read up before we build our greenhouse. I am hoping to heat it with a compost pile made with chicken litter and grass clippings. We'll see how that works. Need to get a min/max thermometer. It won't be very big, just 16 by 24 is the current plan, so don't plan to do anything commercial with it.

It finally got cold enough here to kill the impatiens seedling that was right next to the house. I was surprised at how long it lasted. But it got to 15 night before last and took it out.

The radichio looked to be still alive yesterday so dug it and put it in the storage building in a plastic tote. Left a few in the garden that were kinda tucked under the rutabaga leaves and so escaped the deer's notice. Also left a couple immature Michili Chinese Cabbage out there. It looks wilty but still alive too. Time will tell.

Dorothy,

You're welcome. I'm always happy to spread the word about Eliot Coleman's books and, also, about his wife's books. And that reminds me, Barbara Damrosch's wonderful book, "The Garden Primer", was updated and re-released in 2008 and I need to get a copy of it. It has been many years since I originally read her books but I remember that I enjoyed The Garden Primer and her Theme Gardens book immensely.

Wait until you see his greenhouses (giant hoophouses really) on movable skids. They are amazing.

It sounds like the cold finally reached y'all. I'd try harder to do some winter gardening, but I don't like cold weather.

I finally lost the rest of my castor bean plants this week when the temperatures dropped into the low 20s. They had been killed back bit by bit with each successive frost. Having attained heights ranging from 8 to about 12 or 14' in height, they were gorgeous. They froze from the top down, but I left the ugly frozen leaves on them (although some eventually dropped on their own) because those leaves protected the still healthy leaves beneath them. I noticed Friday, though, that every one of them is now totally frozen out.

In the garden, though, I still have lemon balm, sage, mint, rosemary, oregano, sweet alyssum, a few Laura Bush petunias in both pink and purple, and dianthus. Everything else is done.

Every meal I've prepared this week has incorporated several items raised in the garden...that's how I keep my garden "alive" all winter long....by eating from it. I suppose we need the winter down time to rest and recover from a long garden season. Even as I lament the freezing weather and the end of the garden, I'm also looking at the 2010 calendar and starting to plot out my planting dates. LOL

I do still have several pepper plants in pots that are producing peppers. I drag them into the garage at night (aling with the brugs) and back out during the day. It isn't exactly like we need more peppers....as y'all know, we harvested about 4 times our usual amount this summer. I think I keep the peppers alive as long as possible just so something is still green and producing....because I really miss the 'green' in the winter when most the landscape is brown or tawny gold.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: The Garden Primer, Second Edition