Susan,
I've only grown one of these. I have seeds for a couple of them maybe. Several I have never heard of. I have been trying to acquire seeds for County Agent myself. I may have some seeds coming.

I do have plenty of seeds for Cowlick's Brandywine. They are from the original source so they should be true. I grew it in 09 and have it on my list for 11. I will send some when I send the Purple Haze seeds. It fell to disease the one year I grew it but did set more fruit than Brandywine Sudduth ever has. Ed's Millenium is another Brandywine selection I can send you. It set real well in 09 but fell to disease later in the season.

Fireball I've grown. Was an average tomato the year I grew it.

That is all I can comment on. Jay

Thanks, Jay. Crossing Fireball off the list.

Thank you also for the seed offer, too. I hope you don't think I'm begging for seed, though. I'm just going thru the lists of those that seem to be good for various reasons, e.g., size of plant, size of tomato, flavor, production, color. I think I put down Fireball because of its size being semi-indet. and it was compact.

I also tried to pick those varieties that had some tested variety in their background, originated in warmer climates, from hybridizers or growers I was familiar with, and other similar reasons.

Thanks again,

Susan

I haven't grown many on the list.

Extreme Dwarf Bush stays very short and did not produce much of anything for me when I grew it. I tried it in both containers and in the ground. I gave it two years (one very wet and flooding, one very dry and droughty) and gave up on it.

Principe' Borghese is a great producer of small plum-shaped tomatoes that are excellent for dehydrating but not worth eating fresh as they are kind of mealy and flavorless. So, if you intend to dry them, I recommend them highly as drying them intensifies the flavor and eliminates the mealyness. In wet years, they're flat out mushy. In very dry drought years like 2003 or 2005, I have pulled them up and hung them up to dry like they do in Italy. In wetter years with more humidity I have dried the tomatoes in the dehydrator or oven.

Santa is the perfect red grape tomato with great flavor. I assume this is the OP version, since the result of all the litigation was that the hybrid seeds cannot be sold to home gardeners in the USA. I haven't grown Santa in several years, and the last two years I grew Santa, I grew the orange version of Santa from T&M.

I haven't grown the others enough to have any comment on them.

Dawn

Hmmmmmm. Well, the info stated on the website indicate the seeds were extracted from "store bought tomatoes" which I assume were the Procacci Brothers commercially marketed F1 tomato, which they call Santa Sweets. However, seeds from the supermarket would result in an F2 hybrid, right? So, no problem with patent infringement or anything (only with vegatative propagation). I understand that most F2s come true from seed, no? or maybe depending on the tomatoe? Probably not going to grow this one either.

On Principe Borghese, I had listed it specifically because it is anticipated we will have a drought, or very dry year, in 2011, with this La Nina weather pattern. I thought then that this next year might be a good time to grow these, as you said, for drying or dehydrating. So will leave that one on the list as a "maybe". Still intend to purchase a dehydrator.

Will cross off Extreme Dwarf Bush. If it didn't do well for you, then it's probably going to do worse for me, LOL!

Thanks, Dawn and Jay!

Some of the tomatoes that I chose as "potentials" - and this was a protracted venture in reviewing each and every single variety on the list, with still more research to be done = looked very interesting.

Susan

Susan,

As soon as the big lawsuit mess happened, lots of folks began saving Santa seeds from store-bought tomatoes, so I am assuming it has been dehybridized into a stable open-pollinated version. As far as the legality of selling it under the Santa name, I don't know, but I doubt the seed company will go after anyone selling the O-P seeds because, first of all, they'd have to prove the Santa O-P seed came from their tomatoes and....well, knowing it is one thing, but proving it would be another, I think.

I'll just say this about hunting down obscure varieties that might have potential in our gardens and in our climate. It is fun. I have done it. It also can be disappointing. Despite careful research, I'd say maybe one in ten 'new' (i.e. new to me) varieties have been keepers, and some years it has been more like 1 in 14 or 1 in 16. One reason I experiment somewhat less now is that I got tired of trying and trying and trying tons of new varieties that really weren't much better, if any better at all, than the ones I was already growing. I have found the constant search for the best varieties can distract me a bit.

So, this year, I'm dividing my tomatoes. All the 'regular' ones grown for production will go into the garden. All the trial plants will go into a smaller separate garden for evaluation, and I may grow all of them in large muck buckets instead of in the ground. I think that would give trial varieties a more fair evaluation because I'd have them in a great potting mix and with adequate water so they ought to do well even if it is a drought year. I know sometimes I get 'disgusted' with a plant's poor performance and don't give it a third year of trial, and sometimes not even a second year, and since our weather is tough, that's not always fair to the tomatoes.

The Brandymaster series is an example. I grew all three colors last year for the first time and was disappointed in them, although Pink Brandymaster produced better than the yellow and red versions. So, I am not inclined to try them again in 2011 unless I try them as fall plants. Maybe if I'd grown them in 2009, though, they would have been great.

I struggle to balance my "need" for lots (and I do mean lots, lol) of tomatoes to freeze, can, dehydrate and eat fresh with my "want" to constantly try new varieties.

There are thousands of tomato varieties out there, and I'm about to decide the odds of discovering one that grows better and tastes better than the ones we already grow might be somewhere between slim and none. Still, I keep looking. The best tomatoes I'm finding nowadays are not coming out of commercial breeding programs. They're coming from people like Keith Mueller and his crosses (Gary O' Sena, Dora, etc.) and small companies like Victory Seeds, Gleckler Seedman, or Southern Exposure Seed Company (which really isn't that small except in comparison to the giants like Burpee) or Remy's Sample Seeds that focus almost exclusively on heirloom OPs.

I like Baker Creek and Tomatofest both, but they both have so many that it is almost impossible to narrow it down to which ones to try.

You know, most of the people who live near me who garden are happy with the same old same old tomatoes that perform well for them year in and year out. They really don't even think about what they'll plant because it is the same thing every year.....Celebrity, Better Boy, Big Boy, Goliath, Porter, Sweet 100, Roma. In a way, I kinda miss the good old days when it was that simple for me too....but I'll never go back!

Dawn

I can certainly understand the reasons behind sticking with the tried and true. I am just so new to it all, I'm willing to go out on a limb. There's not many areas of my life that I feel comfortable doing that, believe me. I am generally a person that does not like change of any kind, and especially when it is forced on me. Gardening is one area in which I can exercise some freedoms and choices, some "poetic license" in how I grow things. For example, I got used to this one kind of herbal drink that contained vitamins and minerals to support the immune system. Now, I don't know whether it was truly beneficial or not, but I figure it doesn't hurt and as long as I "think" it does, then it probably has some advantages. They had one flavor that I liked out of 6. Out of the 6, they discontinued the exact ONE that I liked. Errrrrrr......... So, I quit buying it because the remaining flavors just weren't to my liking. I had NO choice in that matter, and I would venture to guess that a full-on campaign to try to convince the company would fall on deaf ears.

When a new challenge crosses my path, partcularly in the area of something I enjoy doing, something that allows me the freedom of choice, I often take advantage of it....ah, hum....I might even over exercise my power of choice to the point of addiction, LOL! I won't ever have to "live" off the land, and couldn't if I wanted to, like most of you guys. Hey, two summers ago I didn't think I was even able to grow tomatoes and had come to terms with it. It was just an impossible thought; perish the thought! Well, that proved to be wrong, but it is certain that I won't be able to grow enough to live all winter on like you and Jay and many others on the forum. So, I get to do it for fun, and yes, that rewarding ripe tomatoe, too!

Anyway, as far as growing different varieties, the fun is in the journey as they say, and not in arriving at the destination.

Last night I picked all my green tomatoes - well, almost all of them. Probably around 200 or so, but mostly cherry and currants. I have tomatoes everywhere in the kitchen right now. Well, guess what! I found a late instar Tobacco Hornworm on the Black Cherry plant - guess they like it the best, too, heehee! I just left him there. He was about the pupate and I figured he could have the rest of the foliage if he wanted at this point. Don't think I've ever found one this late. Sure was a pretty guy!

So, my gardening is done for the year. I'm always a bit sad and I'll reflect on things that worked for me, and some that didn't. But, all in all, it was a great year for me.

Thanks again, Dawn.

Susan

Susan,

Believe me, I've been out on that limb trying new varieties for over a decade, but the end result it that I've found a lot of them are surprisingly 'the same' and that really worthy new discoveries are somewhat rare. If I had stopped trying new varieties after about 2006 or so, how different would my tomato variety grow list be right now? Not all that different. Would I be as happy with the tomatoes I was growing? Probably. It is perplexing.

I have found the same thing with corn though. I experimented a lot until I found what we like so now there's no need to keep looking. I haven't quite stopped looking for new tomatoes, but I'm getting there.

I'm still experimenting with beans but have found plenty we love. The same is true of southern peas.

With some things, it isn't the variety that "I" pick so much as it is the variety that picks me. In the pumpkin and winter squash world, we have so many problems with squash vine borers that it is easier and smarter to stick with Seminole and Green Striped Cushaw because they withstand the pest assault.

In the watermelon world, with limited space available, it is Blacktail Mountain, Sugar Baby and Yellow Doll every year. (Although, after reading about Dale's results with Sugar Lump, I might try it next year.)

With jalapenos, it is hard to imagine finding any we'd like better than Mucho Nacho, Grande' and Biker Billy. So, most of that experimenting is over.

I'm trying really, really hard to focus on growing what grows best for us and experimenting less. Every year I promise myself I'll "only" plant 50 tomato varieties and then I end up with 75 or 80 or 100. I seem unable to control myself when it comes to tomatoes. And, please, can someone explain to me why I can't find my keys five minutes after I walk in the door, but I can walk out into the garden on any given day and tell you what tomato plant grew at the end of "that row" in 2007. How do I remember it was "Pale Perfect Purple" but I can't remember if I fed the chickens this morning? I think my brain remembers only what it wants to remember.

Dawn

I like Pale Perfect Purple very much.

At least our experimenting helps us rule out some as a waste of time, so maybe by the process of elimation we will someday end up with just good ones. LOL

I have ruled out Principe Borghese because the taste was nothing special and the skins were tough. Anna Russian planted for the first time this year did not produce one tomato. I might give Brandywine one more chance, but it won't be in a prime spot.

Helen,

Me too. I like almost all the purples, pinks and blacks more than anything else. The years that I grew Pale Perfect Purple were a couple of tough weather years, and the row of purple-fruited tomato plants were in some of my least-improved soil and they still, as a group, outperformed almost all the plants with red fruit.

Carol,

Sometimes I wonder what it is that I've 'eliminated' through all the experimentation. lol My entire "gardening problem" is that I want to grow them all!

Having horrid red clay does force me to make choices though, because it is such a long, hard process to break up the concrete-like clay and amend it. Since I cannot continually break up and amend more soil and keep enlarging the garden, I have to carefully choose what to grow. Growing so many tomato varieties (by choice, of course) has really cut back on how much of everything else I can grow. It is hard to believe I used to grow about 15-20 different varieties each of melons and winter squash, for example, back when I had fewer tomatoes. I used to have huge flower beds and now the veggies are taking over lots of that space too.

When I was a kid, I never really wanted to become a farmer because I saw how hard my grandparents worked. But, somehow, I've got a little mini-farm thing going on here anyway.

Dawn

I'm not hearing/reading very good things about Baker Creek, so I canceled my catalog request. They have been blacklisted at another forum, so that tells me something. Is anyone else familiar with the problems at BC?

I am ordering my seed from Remy anyway, and just need to get Hawaiian Currant from another source.

Susan

Susan,
I sent you an email. I will just say I've usually had good results with Baker Creek. The couple of times something wasn't right they made it right. Their customer service is as good as anywhere. I'm sure I will buy from them again this year. Haven't even been to their site yet. Wasn't sure if it was updated yet. I will tell you their catalog is worth the read even if you don't buy anything from them. I don't need many seeds of anything. So waiting for a few of my favorites to update and what I don't get from them I will order from Baker Creek or one of the other larger vendors. I did go look at Amishland after Dawn said her site had been upgraded. I will buy a few seeds from her but may not buy any tomato seeds this year. Again hard to resist. Waiting for Skyfire to update her site also. Jay

Susan,

I have no idea what forum has them blacklisted, and I cannot imagine why this has occurred, because it goes completely against everything I've ever experienced with this company.

I have bought seeds from Baker Creek since the company's second or third year in operation back when Jere was a teenager, and I've had some tomato packs arrive with 150 or more seeds in the pack.

Customer Service always has been superb. They ship quickly, they fill backorders as quickly as possible, and if they are permanently out of something I've ordered, they normally send a cash refund (I assume this is easier for them than issuing a refund on a credit card) in a little yellow envelope enclosed with the order.

I have grown hundreds of varieties of veggies, and some flowers and herbs as well, from Baker Creek over the last 8 years or so and never once has one disappointed me in terms of health or production unless it was something like Brandywine which I knew wouldn't produce well in our climate before I bought it.

So, I'd suggest you ignore that other forum and give Baker Creek a chance because they deserve to have a chance. I do know that there are some people who don't like BC because of the non-GMO stance, etc., the company promotes and there are some people who are very jealous of the company's success. Baker Creek has grown by leaps and bounds in the last 4 or 5 years and I am sure they have experienced some growing pains, but none of those growing pains have never affected me or anything I've purchased from them. They are one of a handful of companies I really trust and I'll continue to trust them until they give me a reason not to.

As Jay mentioned, their catalog is well worth having. Even if you were not hooked on growing open-pollinated heirloom types of veggies, you would be after you spent an afternoon perusing their catalog. I keep their catalog on my coffee table year-round, and even non-gardening friends can't resist picking it up and looking at the photos.

Jay, I think Lisa's website is just so amazing. I really don't need any more tomatoes either, but I can't resist looking at hers....and I see something tempting there every time I look.

Dawn

I thought I had posted a reply to this. Not sure what happened to it.

I will say after my experience with 2 people from the other site I wasn't surprised to see them involved in this squabble. And it didn't surprise me who got banned. Wasn't the first time they have been banned from a site. I used to visit the IDIG site almost every day. Haven't been back but a couple of times in over a year and a half due to a lady from TV coming over and harassing me and attacking others. I will say this was just the straw that broke the camels back but not the lone incident.

My experience like I mentioned above has been very good overall with BC. Overall both AL and BC are in my top five companies to do business with. Unlike the company they highly recommend on TV. I tried to link a site where growers can rate their experience with a business but can't on GW. Just do a search for Dave's Garden Watchdog. Overall I would say for the amount of business BC does their rating is very good. You can click on their name and it will take you to their rating and also reviews. They are listed in the top 30 of this site. I visit 4-5 other sites from time to time. I haven't seen anything negative about BC seeds on them this summer and fall. I might of missed it but usually if there is something negative about a company I will notice it. I would just encourage everyone not to form a judgment about BC or any company from that one site. Whether good or bad.

Lisa isn't perfect. But none of us are. Overall I've had good results with her seeds. And many of my favorites are from her. I didn't grow near all of the beans I have of hers this year but plan to in 011. She like BC doesn't bow down to the Queen of TV and her cronies. So she has been black listed like BC has. I've grown many of these so called changed named varieties next to what the TV members said they really were and every time so far Lisa's variety has been different. She doesn't send many seeds. Which makes it not the best deal for someone buying seeds to just grow veggies to eat and can. I buy planning on saving seeds if I like the variety so I don't need many plants. And she provides many varieties I can't find elsewhere.

Susan, Are you sure? Watchdog shows 284 positive and only one negative response. They have the best catalog of any I receive. I love to go to their store in MO and shop.

The only negative that I see to Baker Creek is generic packages and they seem to be changing a lot of that. I love Baker Creek. On the other hand, his choice of his personal clothing makes me want to puke, but I love his seed company.

his choice of his personal clothing makes me want to puke, but I love his seed company. - Carol my thoughts also. Reminds me more of what a few wore in the 50's and 60's on Sat morning kid TV shows.

I'm going to add. I was influenced by some of this same group the first time I placed an order and I did have some problems. I did place a call and the only time I didn't get the results I wanted. So posted about it. Jere saw my post and asked me too call again. I did and they made it right. The only time since I've had a problem they made it right on the first call. I have called once or twice more to ask questions. They have always been very polite and prompt getting me answers. This experience of mine is why I encourage others not to rush to judgment on a selected few's opinion at one forum. Like I said in my opinion now that I'm away from it some over there share and agenda. Shipping is usually fast. Jay

Well, as you can see, I didn't go into any details about the issue because I wanted to see what everyone else had to say here.

Things were kind of explained to me about all of the issues surrounding the black list, and I am willing to give them a try, considering that I should base my opinion on my own experience and not that of others. Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read on the Internet, and I apologize for my "contempt prior to investigation", meaning that I should have investigated it further. But, hey, that's why I posted asking if anyone else had heard about problems with BC. I guess I was just influenced by the fact that people can be so cruel at times, no matter the circumstances. I'm glad that doesn't happen here.

Susan

Well, now that I know who had banned BCHS, I am not surprised because the folks there have had issues with this company in the past. I don't care for the behavior of some folks in the heirloom tomato movement who believe their history of tomato varieties is the only valid one, and that's all I'll say about that.

Like Jay, I use several seed suppliers that many folks at TV don't care for, and I've always been happy with their seeds and their service.

Susan, The rating site that was mentioned earlier is a great one and I use it a lot, but we can't link it here because it is at a competing website. For BCHS to be in the Top Thirty of the several thousand companies listed there is very impressive. I just placed a seed order yesterday with one of their "Top Five" and the fact that they are so highly rated is one reason I ordered the seeds I wanted from them and not someplace else.

When it comes to heirloom O-P tomatoes (and the seed suppliers who carry them), what matters to me is how the tomato performs and how it tastes. I don't really care if the history given for it at one site differs from the history at another site. Many histories are not well-documented and others have been 'added to' so I don't get all wound up about them since, ultimately, I'm growing tomatoes to eat, not for historical reasons.

I'm glad our forum is so user-friendly too. I don't believe meanness or unkindness has a place on a gardening forum, but others don't necessarily share that belief.

Happy Gardening, everyone.

Okay, Susan, look before you leap, or you might get mud on your face....... ...LOL

I will give BC the chance it deserves based upon all of your comments.

I will refrain from reading political info in forums.

There are some good, very nice growers at TV, such as Remy and Craig. So, I can't blame everyone for the acts of a few.

Thanks for setting things straight, y9u guys! Love you all!

Susan

Susan,

I agree that there are some good and very nice tomato growers at TV just as at any/every online forum, and Remy and Craig are perfect examples, but then there are the other type of folks there too.

You can read all the political info you want, you know. It is a free country! I read that stuff too sometimes, but I take it with a grain of salt because in all political stuff, the person writing it has an agenda.....and my agenda is to grow and eat tomatoes.

I forgot to mention Jere's rather unusual clothing choices and, while I would not make those same choices, I'll defend to the death his right to choose his own wardrobe, lol. Some of the outfits he wears kinda remind me of the way country music singers like Porter Wagoner dressed in the 1960s. (Don't tell me y'all didn't see stuff like that when you watched the "Grand Ole Opry" with your parents way back then!) I also think he loves all things heirloom and old-timey, and his rather different clothing choices reflect that.

Whether any given person likes Baker Creek or not (and I love it), they deserve a huge, huge, huge amount of credit for introducing hundreds of thousands of gardeners to heirloom varieties of veggies, fruits, herbs and flowers. There's always been other companies that have offered heirloom varieties, but most of them have not had the same degree of success and have not reached as many people as BC does.

I also like what I see BCHS doing with their money because they're putting their money where their mouth is. When they purchased the place in Petaluma, CA, and opened up a retail store there, it was exactly the kind of store I'd want to shop in. Nothing about it is fancy or new, and I love that. Then, when they bought Comstock Ferre and Co. this year, I was relieved to see that fine, old company sold to someone who will bring it back and make it better than ever. Too many small (small now but they were once major seed suppliers) companies have disappeared in recent years, so I'm all for seeing someone buy them and restore them to their former glory. The city where Comstock-Ferre is based should be thrilled because I bet Baker Creek's purchase of the company will revitalize it completely. I also subscribe to and read Baker Creek's magazine and find it very interesting. I've learned a lot about various heirlooms from reading this magazine the last few years.

Susan, we love you too....and if we think someone is leading you down a path of questionable value....well, we're gonna sceam and holler. I hope that's OK! : ) I think of everyone here as my gardening brothers and sisters (especially since my own brothers and sister aren't gardeners) and I appreciate the way we all look out for one another, help one another and encourage one another.

Dawn

I think I kind of (harumph...cough, cough) led myself down that pathway, but no, I appreciate the voices of experience ever so much! And, I'm willing to admit the errpr of my ways.

Did you hear that Park Seed was bought out in August? I think this is probably a good thing because they really have had some problems there for awhile. I wasn't one of them, though. I have bought flower seeds from them and had no problems at all.

No, it is best if I stay away from those political threads because I get too emotional about the folks that get hurt by it. One of those cases where you have to be there to understand, and you may have been there, and I know Jay has and so have I. In fact if I had read that thread where Jay was getting blasted, and knowing him now, I probably would have driven to someone's house with a baseball bat........not really, but I would have felt that way. Psst.......I think I would have had an army with me, too. LOL!

Thanks again.....for EVERYTHING!

Susan

Susan,
I'll be the first to say there are several great people and growers on that forum. You mentioned some of them. I could also name you enough names to start a large forum that have been attacked/slandered and either banned or chose to leave. Most great people and excellent gardeners. There was a time when I was younger I would of went out the door fighting. Today I don't waste my time on something I can't change. I will warn those I respect and care about of the pitfalls that are present. And like Paul Harvey always said I will sometimes tell the rest of the story. Or as my Mother always said before you go off half cocked get the other side of the story. I have very seldom went to the politics section of a forum. Sooner or later there will be a confrontation. I like a good friendly argument but when name calling and slandering starts I just move on. I'm no rocket scientist but when you see the same people in most confrontations I'm smart enough to know they are instigators. And when a person starts out saying I hesitated to say anything or I know better than to get involved every time they get involved I'm smart enough to figure it out. I forgive but I don't forget. And I hate to see friends get misled and attacked like I did.

Now it is time to get back to talking gardening. I have wasted enough time on something I can't change. That includes flowers. My flowers I planted amongst my tomatoes are still looking good. I will be tilling them under in the next few days. Sure hate too but that is where the last of the garlic will go and where onions will go early in the spring. I try to get the garden all prepared and covered with straw before the ground freezes. Hope everyone has a great weekend. Looks like it will be a nice one. Jay

Susan,

I used to be gullible and believe everything I read and, in fact, Jay was one of the first to remind me of the importance of looking at the other side of the story. Knowing him as well as I do, I am horrified at what he went through at the hands of one of the "tomato experts" revered by many, and I don't bother reading what that person writes any more. When he first told me about it, I was stunned...and pretty much speechless. However, once he told me about it, I watched closely and saw that person browbeating other people in a similar way. I wish that kind of behavior was not tolerated at Garden Web or any other online forum.

The Park Seed bankruptcy sale was interesting to say the least. I used to love Park Seed many years ago, but in the last 5 or 6 years, I haven't bought very much from them. The seeds I bought in recent years were fine, germinated and grew well, etc., but the quality of their live plants had really deteriorated. I sure would like to see Park Seed rebound under the new ownership and succeed. Historically it has been a great source for seeds for southern gardeners for decades. They were in SO much trouble though......how in the world do you get into such trouble that you have assets around $8 million and liabilities around $40 million. I can't imagine how that happened.

You're welcome, but you don't have to keep saying 'thank you'. You know, you help us as much as we help you.

Jay, My ground almost never freezes, so I can work on improving the garden all winter long. I am glad about that, because it takes me a while to rake, chop up and gather all the leaves I need to heap onto the beds. With the way the wind has blown this week, it hasn't been a very good week to gather leaves, but I've been working on other things.

I still have flowers in bloom too in areas sheltered from frost, and since they aren't in the veggie garden but are instead in flower beds and under trees and such, I will leave them as long as possible because the bees and I love them so.

I have been trying to plan my garden for next year and am having a hard time figuring out where to put everything I want to grow. That's a never-ending thing with me though.

I've also been working on my Christmas shopping. I have no idea what anyone else in the family is getting, but Santa is bringing me a new pair of garden boots and I can say that with certainty because they arrived at the house today. Just wait until Tim sees the boots he's buying me for Christmas--they are even cuter (and very sturdy and very good quality) in person than they look in the photo.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: The Cutest Garden Boots Ever for a Gardener/Chicken Owner Like Me

I don't even like yellow, but those are TOO cute. Did you sing "Merry Christmas to Me". LOL

Carol,

I don't know that I've ever had yellow footwear before, but it was love at first sight when I saw those boots. So, after searching the web to see if I could find any other pair I liked better (and I didn't), I ordered them. Then I told Tim "for Christmas, you're getting me the cutest garden boots ever", and he said "Gee, that's the kind of nice guy I am. I knew you wanted those", which was not quite true since he'd never seen those boots before. Then I told him he also bought me an oilcloth bucket organized for my garden tools. Being a thrifty Yankee, he said "Why? What's wrong with the one you have?" So, I had to patiently explain that the bucket tool organizer I have is canvas and gets dirty easily, and the new one he bought me is oilcloth (and a cute floral pattern) and I'll be able to wipe it clean. Once again, he praised himself for knowing exactly what to get his wife for Christmas. lol

Santa Tim has such an easy life...and he'd rather walk through fire (pun intended, since he loves fighting fires) than go shopping for anything, any time, any where so our shopping system works for us. He's happy because he's not shopping and I'm happy because I'm getting a gift that will be useful and I know I won't be standing in line anywhere after Christmas to return a gift that he chose on his own. Also, he's learned over the years that when I shop for myself, I spend less money on myself than he spends when he is shopping for me. Thus, he sees the wisdon in letting me be my own Santa. : )

He does have to wrap the gifts himself, and then I have to open them and act surprised "How did you know this was just what I wanted?"......

So, I'm practically ready for spring now, and spring is still so far away.

Now, since they sent the little Holiday Catalog in the shipping box with the gifts, I'm going to go look at it, and I am sure I'll see something else I'll wish I'd ordered. I try to stay away from the websites of Gardener's Supply and Lee Valley Tools because they have so many things I like.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: The Bucket Organizer

Now how did I know before I even opened your boot image, Dawn, that they were going to be Wellies? First thing that came to my mind! Heehee! My old garden clogs are so worn out so I think they'll be replaced this year. The bottoms are so worn that I can skate on mud now.

I got my Pinetree catalog this week. I have ordered from them in the past, flower seeds and Hops rhizomes, which have to be ordered at a specific time of year. Should be getting the Baker Creek (it was too late to cancel it, thank goodness!) any day now because the catalogs have gone out.

I looked over the Tomato Growers Supply website today and have chosen 2 or 3 I like the sound of. They don't have many heirlooms, do they? Sure have some interesting looking hybrids, though. Not thru browsing yet.

Looked at last year's list for Skyfire and thought they had some very nice listings, too. So, I am having fun "window shopping". Gonna have to narrow it down before long, though. Boo hoo!

I need to start saving my water bottles for winter sowing my tomatoe seeds, so I'll be ready when it is time to do it. May invest in a couple shop lights, they're so cheap, and they work very well for starting seeds indoors.

Not gonna order any more flower seeds right now; will put in an order to Bustani this spring for plants. They have marvelous mail order plants and Steve has become known nationwide now, by many here at GW. I have friends on the Butterfly Gardening forum who order from him and friends at the Salvia forum who've ordered from him as well, and everybody thinks highly of his plants. He has a nice mix of natives, ornamentals, and tropicals.

Susan

Susan,

I've been looking for new garden boots since last winter when, indeed, my old slick-bottomed, nearly worn-to-pieces ones did send me slipping, sliding and falling in the mud (and snow) a few times. When I saw the chicken-patterned Wellies, I knew I'd found the boots I'd been searching for. They seemed appropriate for a gardener who starts each morning outdoors opening up the two chicken coops to let the chickens out to roam in their fenced chicken runs.

I ordered from Pinetree as soon as they updated their website and then my seed order and their catalog both arrived in the mail at about the same time. I've bought seeds from them for years.

Tomato Growers Supply has oodles and oodles of heirlooms. For the first 2 or 3 years that I grew heirlooms, I bought them all from either Seed Savers Exchange, Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, Totally Tomatoes or Tomato Growers Supply Company. (This was back before Baker Creek and many of the newer seed sellers that carry heirlooms even existed.) Really, we grew heirlooms, usually from seed from the now-defunct Texas seed seller Gene Porter & Sons Seed Company, back when I was a kid but I didn't know they were heirlooms. All I knew was that they were tomatoes!

"Window shopping" for the garden is always fun and I do it year-round. I do try to order all my seeds for the next year before the current year ends because there is nothing worse than waiting for seeds to arrive even as your 'planting date' nears or even comes and goes. With millions more people growing edibles the last 4 or 5 years, many companies have struggled to get orders out in 3 to 6 weeks during the peak season whereas in the past they used to get the orders shipped within a few days of receiving your order. I order very early to avoid the slow-shipping problems. I've ordered from 3 companies this fall and received my seeds less than a week after ordering them in every case.

I also make fewer impulse purchases if I have practically all my seeds ordered before the catalogs arrive. If I've already ordered what I need, I have no reason to send in another order and impulsively add a half-dozen "new" things I found in the catalog. Those garden catalog photos are irresistable in winter.

I really try to have everything I need for seed-starting in place by the end of the current calendar year. That way, if it is a bad fire season and I am running from here to there, at least I know I have all my supplies stockpiled in case I get a free day.

I love, love, love my seed-starting light shelf. It is my third one because in each case my seed-starting needs outgrew the previous shelf. When that happens, I buy a larger set of shelves and we move the chains that hold the lights from the old set of shelves to the new set of shelves. Tim then inherits the old set of shelves to put in the garage for storage of whatever it is he keeps in there. My current seed-starting shelf holds 20 flats, and that sounds like a lot, but I raise a lot of tomato plants to give away, so I never have enough shelf space. I'm hoping the new sunporch will, when finished, give me space where I can leave more flats of plants on tables by the windows once they're a certain size. That would free up more space on the light shelves. The sunporch is not heated, but I could put a little space heater out there for cold spring nights.

Dawn

Whoa! I don't know how you fit 20 flats under one shop light. Am I reading that wrong? How big are your shop lights? Surely they're larger than the standard 4 footers?

Other than my built-in flourescent lighting under the shelves in the kitchen, I haven't set up shop lights for a very long time, but shouldn't be difficult. Setting them up in my well-lit back porch with the southern natural light exposure should boost my ability to grow non-leggy seedlings there. Now, I just have to figure out how to "cat proof" whatever I do to set up shelves. Oh my aching head!!! Maybe if I grow some pots of cat grass, they'll stay out of them? In a perfect world, right?

So far I am controlling the index finger on my right hand, aka as my ordering finger, and it hasn't hit the "order now" button on the seed sites....yet. I want to have my list ready so I'll just order the seeds I want/need and no more. But, I have very low impulse control. That finger just hits that button sometimes and there is absolutely no rational thought behind it!

Jay told me not to order anything yet - what a guy! So generous. But, doesn't he know how hard it is to exercise restraint? I need help.....maybe a straight jacket......

I hope I get a Gardener's Supply catalog, I usually do.

Susan

I have not had problems with BC sales either. Just a few non- true to type plants. but I guess that's the price you pay when you don't grown and monitor your own seed production. I don't think BC grows any of their own stock.. However I have been a vendor at their spring shows, and it amazes me that a company that is so efficient and highly rates with the sales department is so dysfunctional and so unorganized with the vendor shows. I realize that they are NOT doing the shows for the vendors benefit, but the vendors do help them bring out the people. Their list of vendor rules just keep getting more ridicules every year.

Back to Tatiania

I do get very upset when people don't really have a clue. I have been Upset with Tatiania with her witch hunt against Dr. Tomato. She has drug an issue through the mud until its just plane silly..If she has an issue with someone, she should deal with the person directly and not bring it to the forums. I guess I relate to the small farmer trying to make a very modest living at something they love....and when I say modest, I mean there is no one here or anywhere around here that would trade incomes with me! so I wish they would give him a break. Dr, Tomato was nothing but very nice, when I ordered from him. Sure he is human and makes mistakes like all of us......... fortunately I don't have to order much seeds these days as I grow most of my own stock, Or at least try to... I do have to order hybrids of course, but they are from the bigger companies that don't get caught up in the politics of the smaller guys. I guess it's best that a person don't even participate in a forum if they in business, because you will make someone mad at sometime or the other. I do read several forums as much as possible, but I rarely comment on some subjects even though I have a very strong opinion. Years ago I was doing a lot of correspondence with Louise Riotte. (Roses Love Garlic, Carrots Love Tomatoes fame). She was really into astrology and wanted to do mine. She told me that I had the "Foot in mouth syndrome" My sign was that I would innocently say things that other people would take wrong. While I don't really believe in that stuff, I do try to watch what I say after that....If a fool keeps silent he will be counted among the wise.

Back to seeds

I try to trade around for the rare things that I want to try or deal with an individual. however, I have around 300 tomato varieties in my collection that I need to try now and it would take years to get them all trialed as it now stands. But I am still a sick puppy when it come to collecting and wanting to try something different.

I guess my biggest mistake was to register on most forums with either duckcreekfarms or duckcreekgardens. I should go back and reregister with completely different names on every different forum and keep a low profile.

It really doesn't matter to me what anyone else thinks about anybody else. If they have something I want, I will get it!
So will I order from BC? maybe, if they have something I want, Will I order from Tatiana? Probably.. Will I still be a lurker on different forums? Yes... as I do still learn. I wasn't' even a member of i-dig until about two or three weeks before this incident came up, and while I don't like all the politics on that forum or any forum, I just skip through it and read what is interesting to me as there are still 100's of GOOD people that participte.

I digress

Do a hundred good deeds and no one remembers, make one mistake and no one forgets.

There is enough in the world for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone greed

Gary, You are in good company because several of us on the forum are 'sick puppies' when it comes to our seed stash.

I think that people post things on line that come across very different than what they had intended and that sometimes makes people angry. It is a different story when they intentionally upset another poster and I see that on a number of forums. Our forum is very nice and I appreciate that so much. When I say something stupid, everyone just thinks, 'poor old thing, ignore her, she just doesn't know any better'. LOL It is nice because if we disagree, we just say we disagree, and no one has to get mad.

Hang in there, because we learn from your postings and appreciate the knowledge you share. Carol

Susan,

I have a 5-shelf system and each shelf has two four-foot-long shop light fixtures, with each fixture holding two fluorescent tubes. The lights are suspended by chains attached to the bottom of the shelf above, and I can raise and lower lights by moving the chains. To light the top shelf, we suspend the light fixtures from plant hooks permanently affixed to the ceiling over the plant shelf.

Each shelf easily holds 3 standard seed-starting flats, or I can squeeze in 4 flats if I let the edges of each of them stick out a couple of inches beyond the edge of the shelf. So, that's five shelves lit up X 2 light fixtures per shelf = 10 light fixtures X 2 bulbs per fixture = 20 fluorescent light tubes.

When the light shelf is in use, it generates so much heat that I close off the HVAC vent into that room in order to keep the room from overheating since the lights generate plenty of heat on their own.

As a bonus, if I still have plants on the light shelf in April when the Luna moths are active, they are drawn to the light from the window near the shelf in late evning or early morning. The last two times I've seen Lunas here has been at night in 2009 and 2010 when I went into the room to turn off the lights at bedtime and saw a Luna moth or two clinging to the window screen.

I don't always succeed in keeping the cats off the light shelf, but it is in a spare room and I keep the door closed and that works about 98% of the time (until a cat walks in the opened door behind me). Yelling at the cat that is lying in the middle of a flat of seedlings usually puts the fear into them because I don't really yell much at all, so when I do, they really notice.

Gary, The only gardening forum I visit consistently any more is GW, and generally just the Oklahoma Forum. I used to read a lot at the Tomato forum and Vegetable forums here at GW, but I just don't have time for that any more. I don't miss all the "personality clashes" you see at some of the other forums either.

Carol, As a sick seed puppy, all I can say is that if it is an illness to collect seeds (and far more seeds than a person can plant), then it is an illness I don't mind having, and I hope they never find a cure.

And, by the way, I don't remember you ever saying anything stupid to begin with. I admit we all have days where our memory seems to have deserted us, but that's normal, right?

Dawn

Gary, if I lived up close to where you are, I'd be paying a visit to the Farmer's Market just to get your plants in a NY second! I love reading your posts. I only went to that forum to check up on the Dwarf Tomato Project that Craig LeHoullier's heading up since I grow in containers and am especially interested in the smaller plants.

Carol, I can't imagine anyone thinking that of you at all. I rank you right up there with the experts!

Dawn, I have and do still yell at my cats on occasion when they're getting into something they don't need to get into. Number 1, I don't want them into anything that would harm them, and they do tend to want to have a foliage tasting every now and then if I grow plants indoors. They think everything I get at the grocery store is for them and they come running when I'm unloading the groceries. I do let them play in the paper sacks from Braum's, but I cut the handles off first because I had a cat that got tangled in one and drug it all thru the house hollering the entire way. You don't wanna mess with a cat that has the fear of Gosh in him! All claws and teeth.

I was thinking about getting one of those utility shelf units that you can use up to 4 shelves in and move them up and down. I'd probably use 3 shelves and do the light set up as you describe. I already keep the HVAC vent closed in that room anyway, and it gets pretty cold in the winter and hot in the summer. That should work as far as temps. I like to use a small oscillating fan and a humidifier to keep the air circulating and to keeo some humidity in the air when I do seeds, too. Helps to keep the damping off to a minimum.

If I don't get that done, I will wintersow the seeds around March 1st-15th. They do well then.

If I have the wherewithal this spring, I am also thinking about doing some square foot gardening. Seems logical to me with my limited space. A friend in Tulsa recently told me she is going to do that and I find myself checking it out more and more.

Tatiana has some nice seeds. I haven't delved into anything other than that at her Website and probably won't.

Dawn, wow! I'd love to see some Lunas. I don't see many of the silk moths here, but I haven't ventured outdoors after dark. Maybe I will if I get my shelves set up! Their larval host plant is Walnut or Pecan, among many other tree species. Don't usually find them in large enough numbers to do much damage, though. The caterpillars are quite large.

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: Luna Moth larvae image

Susan,

I started doing square foot gardening in the mid-1990s and it works really well for some things and not as well for others that get really large in our climate. My spacing that I use now is sort of a hybrid of spacing from Square Foot Gardening and from John Jeavons' "How to Grow More Vegetables....." book, which has a complete title about as long as the distance between Marietta and OKC. I've just experimented with the spacing until I find out which one gives me the best yields. I think Square Foot Gardening would be great for you, but encourage you to think of it as Cubed Foot Gardening and grow as many plants upright on trellises, cages or arbors as you can and you'll get even higher yields per square foot.

With smaller plants like lettuce, onions, carrots, etc., the standard Square Foot Gardening spacing works fine. With larger plants that turn into monsters in our climate, like Indeterminate tomatoes, squash, etc., I go more with John Jeavons' spacing or space my plants even further apart. With peppers, it generally varies, depending on whether a given variety gets 2' tall or 4' tall or taller. I have found most peppers give a really high yield even with close spacing, and so do many determinate tomatoes.

I see Lunas most years in April, but not every single year. I usually don't see them in a bad fire year, but I'm not sure if that's because they aren't "here" or if I am just gone so much during a bad fire season that I miss seeing them when they are here. At our house, I almost always see them either on the ground in the area under the big security light that lights up the garage/parking area or hanging around outside the plant shelf window. When I see them at the fire station, it usually is early in the day and they're normally lying on the ground near the security light that illuminates the front of the station. I've never seen the larvae, but we have acres and acres of woods so they could be anywhere. We have tons of native pecans and hickories scattered all over our property (and on the surrounding acreage as well) so I guess that explains why we see them pretty regularly here.

When I was a kid, they'd hang out on the front porch, usually on the screen door, when we were playing in the yard in the evening. It seems like we saw them a lot more often back then than we see them now.

We have every kind of wildlife you can imagine here (as you well know) and most of it is a pleasure to have around. Seeing the lunas, because of their relative rarity, is a real thrill.

Dawn

Not seeing them in a bad fire year occuring in the fall is probably because the cocoons have met an untimely demise. Lunas make their papery cocoons in the leaf litter (the bare pupa is inside) at the base of their host trees and overwinter until the following year. Early spring fires that occur before the moths emerge from their pupae would probably also destroy their cocoons. Earth burying moths, like many of the sphinx would be least affected by fire.

There are a few other silk moths that inhabit the state, including Cecropia and Io. Use caution if you suspect you encountered an Io caterpillar because it has painful stinging sphines. In fact, I never touch an unknown caterpillar with spines until I know what it is. Some can deliver quite a punch. But that is their protective device. Some of the stinging caterpillars include the Stinging Rose caterpillar, Saddleback caterpillar, Buck moth caterpillars, Puss moth caterpillar (looks like it is covered in hair like a long-haired cat), and others. None of them are capable of causing a fatal wound, but they would not be fun to play with. I attached a pic of the only one I have encountered in my garden, the stinging Rose caterpillar, and no, it wasn't on a rose bush. One was on an ornamental plant in a pot and the other was on a Hackberry tree branch. I didn't touch it because I recognized what it was. The one in the photo is yellow, but the ones I saw were green. Just thought I'd toss in that word of warning.

Sorry for getting OT.

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: Stinging Rose Caterpillar

I had said earlier I was done saying anything more about the original topic and the those involved. After seeing Gary's post this morning I did a search. It led me to the same site and many of the same posters attacking another person. I read a little and left. I did get a laugh from the banned one defending his right to use a copy righted image as an avatar without permission but attacking Dr Tomato for basically doing the same thing.

I agree with basically what Gary said. The only difference is I don't lurk on those boards because invariably I can't resist jumping in when I see an attack by a pack on a single person who most of the time had good intentions. And like Gary pointed out I like to see small businesses make it. I sent him an email detailing an instance of a larger institution forcing a small business out here in KS. I still think a garden boot/costume fashion show at the spring fling would be great. We have all the trend setters here on this forum it seems. Jay

We may have to do a 'Wellies' parade instead of Crocs next year. :-)

Jay, Like you, I had to search and see what Gary was referencing and I laughed about the same thing after I found it and read it.

If we have a garden boot/fashion show, it will be hard more me to decide what to wear, being such a garden boot fashionista and all. I guess I could wear my new Chicken Wellie boot on one foot and my off-road croc on the other. Y'all will have to recruit Ilene to come and wear her bee costume though.

Dawn

Wow, what a piss fight over there. Sure glad we all get along here at GW. Oh yeah, btw, my garden boots are 'cuter' than those...

Keith

Well, if I am reading the right stuff, it is a lame argument to start with. First decide if you are most interested in the cosmetic appeal, taste, or nutrition. If you think it improves the one you place the most emphasis on - THEN DO IT THAT WAY. If you don't know, then do it both ways and form an opinion. Good grief!

As for me -

(1) I like pretty tomatoes, but I also eat ugly ones.

(2) As for the nutrition, I'm going to eat enough QUANTITY to make up for any deficiences.

(3) If the taste isn't to my liking, I'll make salsa with them and eat the ones I like.

Simple minded people like me have to keep things simple. LOL

PS - I pick at blush usually to beat the squirrels, but the squirrels seem to prefer them ripe.

Sunnylynn, I searched for tomato lists this morning and found this thread. I did grow Big Sungold Select last year. I liked it. It is orange with bigger fruit than sungold hybrid which I also grew. It is a smaller plant and a different plant. If you want something exactly like hybrid sungold, it isn't that. I liked it better than the hybrid but I don't really like cherry tomatoes. It is worth trying.

Thank you so much for the comment about Big Sungold Select, Helen. I will consider ordering that one now.

I have quite a number of seeds I've purchased this year, and doubt I will plant all of them. I know, at least, that I'm not going to plant the later maturing varieties and I'll have to choose which of the early and mid season tomatos will go out this year.

Susan