Sammy,

For what it is worth, Better Boy and Beefmaster are generally very heavy producers for me here in my garden. This may have been an off year for them. I have found that production of any variety can vary a great deal from year to year and garden to garden.

Since you are going to be purchasing your own plants next spring, I can't recommend a lot of the ones I really like because they are heirlooms that aren't found locally. However, the Tomato Man's Daughter does offer a nice selection of heirloom plants in the spring, usually beginning in about mid-April, and any heirloom she has probably would do well for you, and in particular, any of the heirlooms on her Top Ten list.

In addition to the ones you liked above, we have been happy with the following plants that are usually easy to find in stores in the spring:

Big Beef
Goliath
Lemon Boy
Arkansas Traveler
Bradley Pink
Sungold (I've never seen it in stores here in southern OK or in northern Tx, but some folks on this forum have found it in OK)
Porter or Porter Improved or Porter's Dark Cherry (produces well in August when others are struggling with the August heat)
Juliet

For especially early tomatoes, the following are heavy producers in our garden (in fact, I plant these in containers in February, for ripe tomatoes beginning in April of most years):

Better Bush
Bush Early Girl

and, for slightly later but still early tomatoes:

Bush Goliath.

Some of our favorite hybrids are either from the NJAES, like:

Ramapo

or from the Harris Seed Company's breeding program, like:

Supersonic
Prime Time
Moreton
Jetstar (which you already grow)

A few heirlooms that are sometimes found at retailers that carry plants from Bonnie Plants include:

Black Krim
Cherokee Purple
Marianna's Peace
New Big Dwarf
Black From Tula

If you want meatier paste tomatoes for salsas and sauces, any of these should be pretty easy to find in stores in the spring:

Roma or Roma II
Viva Italia
San Marzano (a little more rare)

If you want to grow tomatoes for sun-drying (although using a dehydrator or convection oven works better in our climate), try:

Principe Borghese'

Another way to get tomato plants is to attend this forum's spring swap, which is usually held in April right around tomato planting time. A lot of us who raise our own plants from seed grow extras specifically to bring to the swap, and pretty much everyone who brings extra tomato plants just gives them away and isn't looking for anything in return. We just want to spread the joy of raising home-grown tomatoes. I took over 100 tomato plants last year, both hybrid and heirloom, and gave away every one of them. Giving away plants at the swap is one way to introduce people to varieties that are new to them.

Finally, if you ever see the following tomato variety any place, it is a great one:

Black Cherry

I'm glad y'all have had a good tomato year. It makes all the work worthwhile.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: The Tomato Man's Daughter Website's Top Ten

I'm not a great tomato grower by any means, but my best producer this year, as always, is Juliet. I dry them. I had another couple of plants that did really well, but the guys who put in my paths took out all my markers!! Next year I'll take notes.

If you had only 15 plants you could easily start that many from seed. One cheap shop light in a garage and two of the cheap 40 watt fluorescent bulbs (not expensive grow bulbs) would be all you'd need. Don't start them too early.
I like Eva Purple Ball, Pale Perfect Purple, and Granny Cantrell. Glacier is an early tomato to get you to the ones above.
I had trouble with some heirlooms rotting if they get a little crack or bug hole. The ones above were not so prone to this.

Thank you for posting.

Helen, if I start the tomatoes from seed, I could put them in large containers on the patio, and move them inside or next to the house if I need to. What is the lowest temperature they can tolerate? If I can purchase them in pots, I could plant them in little pots, save them in the pots in my large containers, and protect them or bring them in.

Why do you like heirloom tomatoes?
The Caspian Pink was our only heirloom and it did tend to split.

What do you like about Juliet, Betty?

Dawn, you have such a wealth of knowledge. I like a sharp flavor in any of my foods. I like the Granny Smith apples all year long, but any apple this time of year since they are all juicy and crunchy. In tomatoes it is the same thing. I don't want mushy, and love a sharp flavor --- juicy is also important. Considering that, are there any that you recommended that I should avoid?

I guess it is normal for the tomatoes to be small now. They are probably ready to stop producing except for the cherry ones.

Thank you all so much.

Sammy

Sammy,

Tomato flavor is very subjective because our taste buds perceive the tomato flavor compounds differently. With tomatoes you really do just have to try the various ones and decide as you go along which are worth growing and which aren't. I try to give any variety that is new to me a second or third year year if the first year is disappointing because the same variety can taste quite different from year to year. Cherokee Purple is a perfect example of this. The first couple of years I grew it, it did not perform well. It was sickly, slow-growing, didn't produce many tomatoes and had, I thought, poor flavor. Then, the third year I grew it, it was simply amazing. So, it is always worthwhile to give a tomato variety a second chance or sometimes even a third one.

Since you like a sharp flavor, I assume that means one that has what is often described as 'old-fashioned tomato flavor' which, to me, means that it has a slightly sharp or acidic flavor more so than a sweet one? If that is the case, I'd avoid most pink tomatoes because they tend to be on the sweet side. And, if you don't like softer tomatoes, I'd avoid almost every variety that produces fruit that weigh a pound or more. I avoid any tomato variety which is described as "mild-flavored'. Based on experience, I've learned that "mild-flavored" pretty much means little to no flavor. Bi-colored tomatoes like Old German or Big Rainbow or Pineapple tend to get pretty soft as they ripen too, so you might want to avoid them if you don't like the really soft tomatoes.

The reason many of us like heirlooms is because they have a wide variety of flavors. I compare heirloom tomatoes to the different wine vintages available. Most heirlooms have a very different and distinctive flavor. I think many red-fruited hybrids taste more or less the same, but the heirlooms are not the same...they have distinctive flavors. Imagine if the only wine you'd ever had in your life was just a simple red wine. Then, one day you discovered all the other vintages....wouldn't that be amazing? It is the same if all you've had is red hybrid tomatoes and then you discover the others: the rich complexity of the black tomatoes, the almost citrusy flavor of something like Lemon Boy (I think it is a hybrid, but it is a very distinctive one), the spiciness of Aunt Ruby's German Green or Green Grape....the amazing old-fashioned flavor of Brandywine or True Black Brandywine.

One of my favorite heirlooms that has what is often described as a "spicy" flavor is Aunt Ruby's German Green and most people who try it are simply amazed that "that flavor" comes from a tomato!

Heirlooms are often (but not always) not as productive as hybrids, but they are worth growing because of their unique flavors. The so-called black tomatoes, which actually are in a range of colors that tend to be mostly a deep, dark maroonish-greenish color, have an amazing rich, complex almost smokey flavor.

I grow hybrids in general for the heavier production. From them, I want round, red tomatoes in vast quantities so I can put up a year's supply of salsa, tomato sauce, stewed tomatoes and crushed tomatoes for cooking soups, stews, sauces, etc. I dry thousands of the little bite-sized ones to eat as raisin-type snacks or to throw into salads all winter long, or to throw into soups by the handful.

I grow heirlooms for fresh eating all summer long. When we have a sandwich with a Black Krim or a Brandywine or a Nebraska Wedding or an Indian Stripe, we know by the flavor exactly which tomato is on that sandwich. That's how distinctive their flavors can be in a good year.

Every year I try to cut back on the large number of varieties I grow, but it is almost impossible because we would "miss" the distinctive flavors of many of the heirlooms.

Tomatoes do get smaller as the hours of daylight get shorter and the temperatures are lower.

It is tempting to try to build a small hoophouse over a few tomato plants and keep them going into winter, but I don't think it is worth it. The cooler temps and shorter daylight hours give you increasingly smaller tomatoes with increasingly milder flavor. Once the daytime highs are staying below 60 degrees or so, the flavor is very lacking. Even though I think I want to keep the tomatoes going forever, it isn't worth it because they get to where they taste almost as bad as store tomatoes. I think it is the heat that makes their flavor compounds develop to their maximum potential. Once we lose the good heat, the tomato flavor is greatly diminished. Having said that, I still think a home-grown tomato beats a commercially-grown tomato any day of the week.

Sammy, Technically, most tomatoes can handle temperatures down to freezing, but I try to keep my tomatoes inside under lights whenever the temperatures are lower than 55 degrees. Young tomato seedlings seem a little more prone to freeze or frost damage because they generally are raised in controlled conditions and aren't prepared for the temps to drop too low.

Dawn

The varieties that you mentioned, I wrote down. But the Tomato man's daughter is about 20-30 minutes from me, and I think Southwood is the only nursery that might have heirloom tomatoes.

I grow "antique" roses since I do not spray -- they are much more resistant to diseases than modern roses, except for a few shrubs.

I was afraid that the heirloom tomatoes would tend to have bad habits that could have been modified in the modern ones. Do you think that the heirloom tomatoes tend to split more than the others? Where would you buy the seeds?

Also, I love going out and just eating the cherry tomatoes off the vine. Are there heirloom cherry tomatoes, or are there some that would have a strong flavor besides the Small Red Cherry and the Sweet 100?

Sammy

Sammy you have received some very good suggestions and advice. Reading your first post and the statement you will probably stick with smaller tomatoes i will add my 2 cents and may add a few larger ones in also but will state when I do. As Dawn stated taste varies from poerson to person and garden to garden. Soil, water conditons ect affect taste. I'm one who likes a wide range from sweet to tart. Also especially with op/heirlooms you have to find what will do well in your area. Although many op/heirlooms have disease resistance most of the time it is an unknown what it is unless someone who has grown it tells you. With hybrids you have more information to work with. So a lot is trial and error. Like stated most varieites deserve more than one year and one plant to judge them by. Also on op's seed source makes a big difference. The first time I grew Cherokee Purple from a commercial source I didn't like it. When I got seeds from the original person who distributed them it was totatlly different. And for me I like it better than Indian Stripe for taste and production. Also as my season has about wound up with the recent frost I will be posting a review of this years grow out shortly. I will try to avoid listing most if not all that have already been mentioned. Many of them I grow and like also.

OP/Heirlooms

Glick's 18 Mennonite - Great all around 4-6 oz red tomato. Slicer, canner, salsa, ect. Not hard like many hybrids but firm till really ripe. Heavy Producer most years. Withstands disease fairly well.

Heinz 1439 - Developed as a canner. Determinate type. Red. Heavy Producer. Nice firm 4.5 ounce uniform fruit. A good all around tomato. Withstands disease very well. Although many really like Thessaloniki and it basically fits your desires I like either 1439 or Glick's 18 better.

Juane Flammee' - A smaller golden tomato larger than a cherry that I grow every year. Has a distintive taste that you will either like or not. Doesn't crack like many cherry types and produces heavy. And exhibits good disease resistance.

Texas Star - A Bi-Color I really like that can do well one year and not the next. I like several bi-colors but as mentioned most can be softer. This one tends to be a little firmer for me.

Emerald Evergreen- Green when ripe. Seeds from Baker Creek. 3-5 ounce. Pick when soft. Has a distinctive impressive flavor especially with a little salt. Every bit as good as Cherokee Green and a better producer.

Hybrids

Brandyboy - Maybe a little larger than you want and a pink. A must grow for me. Better than Brandywine all considered here. Taste and production. I've seen the plants in greenhouses here. And firmer than most pinks.

Porterhouse - Another large red that I like. Maybe begger than you desire.

Old Fashioned Goliath - Seen in greenhouses here. A nice red in the 6-10 ounce range for me.

Jetsonic - 6-10 ounce range. Red. Heavy producer of nice fruits. Good Disease resistant

Security - First year. Firm red determinate type that did well. Good disease resistance.

In my review you will find more mentioned. Tried mainly to stay on track. Surprised no one mentioned Chocolate Stripes as many have had good luck with it. Mine bit the dust so can't comment. If you need seeds of something let me know. I will be sorting through my inventory filling previous requests and setting out what I will grow in 2010 soon and would be glad to send you some. Glad you had a great season. Beware as you grow more the addictions grows. Jay

Sammy asked just what I have been wanting to know and have been waiting until tomato season is over to see everyone's reports. Thanks Dawn and Jay for the great info.

Jay, I have been especially interested to see your end of year tomato report since our growing conditions are so similar. I want to try some different varieties next year so will refer back to this thread and you upcoming end of season report. Did you get a frost last night? My husband said it was 32 when he checked this morning but it was after the sun was up so it may have been colder. I had some tomatoes covered and will have to wait to see if the others were damaged. My garden is close to the house and fairly protected so hopefully some survived.

Jay, thank you very much. I made my list, and will refer to it, and perfect it.

I know you trade with each other, but do you buy seeds from a special nursery?

I feel very uncomfortable not being able to trade, and trying seeds when it will be such trial and error for me.

When we purchase plants, how long has it taken them (Southwood for example) to reach that stage from seed?

Sammy

Sammy

Sammy,

There are quite a few open-pollinated cherry-type tomatoes, but I don't know their heritage in terms of how long they've been around. Some of them include: Riesentraube, Green Grape, Galina's Yellow, Ildi, Isis Candy, Snow White, Yellow Pear, Red Pear, Bi-Color Cherry and Porter (bigger, really, than a cherry, but too small to be a regular tomato).

As far as sources, there are many including Tomato Grower's Supply Company, Tomatofest, Victory Seeds, Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds, Totally Tomatoes, Seed Savers Exchange, Heirloom Tomatoes, Mariseeds, Sandhill Preservation Center and Southern Exposure Seed Exchange. Don't let the phrase "Seed Exchange" in any of the names confuse you...both sell to the public. You can find the website for any of them by googling, and I've linked one of them below.

If I lived close to the Tomato Man's Daughter, I'd definitely go there and buy some of Lisa's plants, even though I also raise my own. One of our favorite heirlooms is Royal Hillbilly, which Lisa's now-deceased father (Darrell Merrell, The Tomato Man) found in a patch of regular Hillbilly, saved, stabilized and shared. I'm pretty sure she sells it every year.

Please don't feel bad about taking seeds offered without a swap. Lots of people share seeds freely either because they buy them in large quantities (some seeds are only available in large quantities) and get more than they'll ever plant, or they save seeds from open-pollinated plants. Most people who offer seeds without a swap just want to share the joy of growing a nice variety. You do have to watch out for Jay, because he is on a mission to get everyone addicted to growing tomatoes so that everyone will grow as many as he does. LOL

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds

Sammy,
In my case don't worry about not having anything to trade. In most cases I have way more seeds than I can grow and don't need anything in return. I have accumulated seeds from many sources. Have bought from over 25 online sources, several from the Seed Savers Exhange yearbook, some from trades and others sent to me from online friends. Among my favorite online sources are Totally Tomatoes, Burpee's, Harris Seeds, Baker Creek, Amishland Seeds, Tomato Growers, Tomatofest, Skyfire Seeds(Kansas company) and Victory Seeds to name a few.

Jan no freeze here last night. Mine was Friday morning. I couldn't figure out the damage and why so much from the temps I saw after I started checking at 6. 37 was the lowest I saw. I posted it all on another thread. To make it short I did some more checking of temps at the closest reporting sites on Underground weather last night. The lowest at the station less than a mile SE of me was 35.9 between 4 & 5 in the morning. And this station sits on what we call the fairground hill which is a little higher elevation. The one 4 miles NW showed 30.5 around the same time. Basically no wind which didn't help. I would say mine must've been closer to freezing for sure. Still the puzling part is one plant survived and the one next to it is a goner or severely frost burned. A few show no damage and then it varies all the way to totally lost. Even the ones I covered had damage. Must of been some small pockets of cold air. Another odd thing is my ground drops fast from the east to the west. And the plants to the west on the lower ground suffered no damage. Last night the lowest it showed anywhere around was 38. So came through fine. I was in Beaver for a funeral yesterday. And surprised to see some areas south of there around Elmwood where they lost their gardens last week. So for sure an odd year. Jan remember I always have extra plants to get rid of and don't want to throw any away next spring so hope you will take a few. I won't have as many moves on my lists as normal due to the year. But a few I was impressed with and a few that showed enough promise to get another chance. I'm sure you have seen some of my posted impressions. I still have a few more pictures to add. Included will be Kellogg's Breakfast and Emeral Evergreen. KB had at least 15 on it yet over 10 ounces many in the pound class. 2/3 of the plant survived so hope to harvest a few more yet.

Sammy see Dawn posted while I was typing this novel. She knows she is as bad as me about our love of tomatoes!!!!! So don't let her warning about me scare you . Jay

OK, I have a new challenge for your expert tomato growers. I want the earliest, decent tasting, tomato that I can find. Something that I can start inside but doesn't get so big that I can't move it in and out until the weather settles down. I don't even care if it doesn't last all season, because I will plant plenty more outside when the weather is settled. I like red or purple tomatoes best, with the exception of Sungold which will be a part of my "real" crop.

Sammy in answer to your question: I had too many tomatoes to eat myself, but when I did eat a fresh tomato it was Eva Purple Ball, Pale Perfect Purple or Granny Cantrell. Taste, skin and color were the reason. Eva and PPP were round pink flawless tomatoes. I had Granny Cantrell fairly early because I used a wall of water and put out big plants early. It isn't really an early tomato but I had some the middle of July which was good considering the cool weather here in May. I had low 40's for night lows when it was time to plant outside here. Tomatoes don't like the 40's. The hybrid I grew was celebrity. It has a tough skin. Worms could eat a hole and you could cut out the bad place. The injured tomato may not rot. Some of my heirlooms were juicy and good tasting but in hot weather if they got a hole or were touching the ground they would rot every time. I had very good luck with the three I recommended and they produced well.

Carol,

For an early heirloom that is smallish early in the season and an early producer, I like both Glacier and Sophie's Choice. I also like New Big Dwarf but it is a little later to produce than they are, and it is pink instead of red.

For an early hybrid, I like Better Bush, or Bush Early Girl. They stay very compact. They're usually the ones I buy in 5 or 6" pots in Feb. in Dallas, and usually in bloom when purchased, and plant in containers for ripe tomatoes in mid- to late- April. They always produce vey early fruit, and sometimes they last deeply into the season and other times they burn out early, but that's OK because they have already fulfilled their destiny.

I also like Jetstar for early tomatoes, but it has a tendency to grow pretty fast and get pretty big, so I like it more in the ground than in containers.

Sammy,

Jay is right. I am just as bad as him when it comes to encouraging and enabling people to become addicted to tomatoes. My feeling is that no matter how many tomatoes you grow and eat, you never have enough. Don't believe me? When the season has ended, and the very last tomato has been eaten, you'll be wishing you had "just one more". Trust me....it is true!

Dawn

Thanks Dawn. I thought I had asked that question before but couldn't find it. Now the worse part of the story is that I think I have 43 kinds of tomato seed and I don't have any of those five. LOL I think I will just look for one of them.

I have Thessaloniki which is listed as a 60-80 day tomato, but it didn't get a good report from Jay. I think I may have a couple more that are supposed to be in the 65 day range. Most people here shoot for a 4th of July date, I think. I was much earlier that that one year, but most years that seems to be about right. I am hoping to try to hit a real early date with 2 or 3 plants. I have some plans of how I plan to accomplish that. LOL

It has been very cool here several nights and I have some brown leaves on some okra and one tomato plant that happened over night a few nights ago. They are on the end of the row that gets more wind straight across them, but I am not sure that it is cold damage because the other plants next to them are fine. I still have a lot of peppers on my vines but the cooler weather seems to have slowed them down some. The green beans are still going strong. In the last week, the cole crops have started to stand up better and growing faster, so this seems to be just the kind of weather they really like. My cowpeas didn't make at all and I doubt that they will have time since the Tulsa station is saying that they could get a frost as early as the weekend and I'm a long way north of them. Sometimes I get a couple extra weeks because of the lake, but this year I am sure the lake has been cooling down slowly as the temps have gone lower over a longer period of time. They made pretty vines and have bloomed the last couple of weeks but I haven't seen any pods. I plan to check them carefully tomorrow and see if there is anything at all. I just got them in much too late because I assumed we would still have a lot of hot weather in August and September.

Some of the winter squash that I planted late is probably going to be OK. I have not pulled any because last time I checked, I could still press my finger nail into it but they have colored up good. I think I will get a couple of acorn type and quiet a few butternut. The spaghetti squash was what I was most interested in getting but I doubt that it will make it. It is growing really fast now but will not reach it's 100 days until the end of October and I think we will have a freeze before that, for sure. Oh well, I got the seed in a trade and it was an experiment anyway since I knew there was a chance that it wouldn't have time to mature from my late planting.

I drove back over to Baker Creek and took my friend and they had a sale on their 2009 seeds but they are very picked over by this time of year. They are beginning to put out several 2010 seeds, and they told me the catalog would be sent out in December. I have never had their catalog so I am looking forward to getting one this year. I'm not sure why because I have already bought all of my seeds for the next year.....and then some, but it will be fun to look at. Since I have about 100 packs of their seed, maybe I can use the catalog as a planting guide. LOL

My DH is having a problem with a knee and he didn't go with us but Anna and I had a good time anyway and enjoyed the seed store. She bought Jonathon apples, green beans, and sweet potatoes from the vendors, and about 30 packs of seed. I looked for silkies but they didn't have any today. I probably will not go back until the May festival. That is a big 2 day thing and should be great, but since they had 6,000 people this year and the event gets bigger every year, I am sure you would need a motel reservation many months earlier. We left home at 7 today, did all our shopping and had lunch at their little place, and were home at 3 o'clock. I had already bought so many seed, but I was there....and the price was right....etc, etc, etc. I bought several things that I probably would not have selected otherwise. I notice that I got home with a lot of pink tomatoes and several new squash, and of course a lot of other things I didn't need. I did buy Ilinni Star tomato and Collective Farm Woman melon which I have wanted to try, and a few new squash.

Carol,
Remember that my review is my impression this year. It also matters what use you want a variety for. Thessaloniki wasn't bad. But for what I wanted it for I feel Glick's 18 and Heinz 1439 set better and also a little better. And serve my needs better.
They are now saying we could see upper 20's this weekend. Another site is still saying upper 30's. So will have to decided by tomorrow evening what I'm going to do. As I will not get home from Denver till late Friday evening and I leave Wed. evening. Hope most can escape again. Jay

Carol,

Well, I tried Thessaloniki for two successive years and it didn't impress me in either of those. It isn't bad, it's just that others were better.

The cooler and cloudier weather has had a chilling effect (pun intended) on most of my tomatoes and peppers, and on all my black-eyed peas and okra. I may start yanking out sweet pepper plants after I harvest their last peppers this week, and probably will take out the Tepins because I harvested about a thousand (each about the size of a BB) this weekend and I am sick of picking them. The black-eyed peas are done, and I am harvesting the early variety of fall corn today, and the later one (if it doesn't freeze) in about 2 weeks. I have fall pumpkins that are not quite ripe yet, but at this point I think they are likely to make it if I cover them up Saturday night.

The fall green beans and pickling cukes are going gangbusters, so I am hoping they can hang on and keep producing the rest of this month, but I'll have to cover them up Saturday night too, and then hope for some luck as well. They're forecasting 44 for Sat. night, which I know from experience likely means 36-40 here and a frost at 38.

The cool-season crops are coming into their own now after struggling with the August and early September heat.

I feel like a school-aged child in August....looking at the calendar (back to school for them, the first freeze now for us) and saying "N-O-O-O! How did this happen?". It seems like we wait so long for warm spring weather and I hate it when the fall weather cools enough to effectively end this gardening year.

You'll love the BC catalog and their descriptions and photos will just make you want to order more. I always watch their website in December and order what I want as soon as it updates, before they could possibly run out of the most popular items.

Your trip sounds like it was a nice "day out". I hope you DH's knee is OK. Tim bruised his heel while out jogging, and is unable to go for his regular runs and is missing it. I'm like "Get over it. It will be fine in 4 or 5 days" (he's a baby when he's hurt), and then I remind him how lucky he is that it is not permanent ankle or knee or hip issues like so many runners get when they hit their 40s or 50s.

Jay,

I guess your garden year is grinding to a halt. The two cold fronts expected here this week should't bring a freeze, unless the forecast worsens, but it will be very close on Saturday night.

Keep us posted on how it goes....and take a heavy coat to Denver!

Dawn